Re: New GM/Cubs Future News Articles

[WilcoFan]

Is there anything to stop the Cubs from hiring Josh Byrnes as the GM for 2012, then bringing in Theo as President of Baseball Ops at the end of the season? From what I understand, that's how it might end up anyway.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Someone posted earlier that, that's not the equation. Ok, what is? What is Theo worth to the Cubs beyond the next choice for GM?

 

That's the key here. It doesn't matter how much Epstein is worth compared to Jim Hendry or me or you. It matters how much Epstein is worth over Rick Hahn or Josh Byrnes or whoever. And the answer is: Not a nearly-ready prospect with any impact potential. Those things are worth quite a bit.

[Guest]

My two year old has threatened to hold his breath until he dies *and* hate me forever if he does not receive additional cookies at snack time. I don't want him to die or hate me forever, so clearly he has the leverage on me.

 

About meathead fan reaction, Ricketts gives as many metaphorical poops as Truffle does real ones. If Ricketts cared about that stuff, Hendry would have been fired two years ago, Sandberg would be the manager and Soriano would be released.

You're right, he doesn't care about selling season tickets.

 

 

With me at like 37,000th on the list, I don't think that's a big concern.

 

 

That said, single game tickets might be an issue (at least, compared to their recent history).

[Rob]

I don't believe asking for McNutt is unreasonable. He had a good season in 2010, then blisters and pulled muscles in 2011. Chances are he never makes it to the big leagues.

How do I put this delicately...

 

 

 

 

drawing a blank.

Put it any way you want. I don't have to win. I just posted that. Just don't violate your own rules like you just did.

 

If you think McNutt or any minor leaguer is more important to the Cubs than Theo, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Someone posted earlier that, that's not the equation. Ok, what is? What is Theo worth to the Cubs? It doesn't matter what is going on in Boston. The Cubs are either going to get him or they are not.

 

Some people act like asking for compensation is beyond the bounds of sanity. It's not.

 

I think he's hitting on the whole "22 year old starter with great stuff in AA is not a good bet to ever make it to the big leagues" part of your post.

 

McNutt will be a big leaguer to some extent. It may not be as more than a pen arm, but the odds that he doesn't spend some time in the bigs are about as low as it gets for any player in the minors.

[Guest]

Is there anything to stop the Cubs from hiring Josh Byrnes as the GM for 2012, then bringing in Theo as President of Baseball Ops at the end of the season? From what I understand, that's how it might end up anyway.

 

 

This is not happening. Why do people keep dreaming up some "lame duck Theo in Boston for a year" scenario where he'll come here after the season?

 

 

Epstein will be ours. Not in a year. In days.

[ScrubMD]

I don't believe asking for McNutt is unreasonable. He had a good season in 2010, then blisters and pulled muscles in 2011. Chances are he never makes it to the big leagues.

How do I put this delicately...

 

 

 

 

drawing a blank.

 

Maybe he meant, "there's a chance."

 

....I hope.

[Guest]

Someone posted earlier that, that's not the equation. Ok, what is? What is Theo worth to the Cubs beyond the next choice for GM?

 

That's the key here. It doesn't matter how much Epstein is worth compared to Jim Hendry or me or you. It matters how much Epstein is worth over Rick Hahn or Josh Byrnes or whoever. And the answer is: Not a nearly-ready prospect with any impact potential. Those things are worth quite a bit.

I don't agree with your first point.

 

And McNutt is not a nearly ready prospect.

[toonsterwu]

But we have given some. We are hiring Epstein as a promotion from his current role with the Red Sox. Agreeing to give up ANYTHING is giving some. Lucchino is too busy stamping his feet and demanding an unreasonable return for something there is no precedent for.

 

Sure, but at the end of the day, the Red Sox can still stay, okay Theo, sit home for a year.

 

Can they? Would Theo's contract as GM allow him to not be the GM? Obviously you can't make him sell popcorn on the contract. What are the limitations on what you can assign him to do?

 

I'm not saying I think giving up McNutt is right or fair, or whatever, but I'm saying that, it might be the price to get the deal done because of the leverage they have (and I find it ridiculous that some folks are suggesting that McNutt wouldn't be a top 8 prospect in the Sox system, saw that somewhere, I think he should get ranked ahead of Matt Barnes, who most have in the top 8), and if that's the case, then you negotiate to get a better return from our side.

 

I don't think, despite comments in this thread suggesting otherwise, that the Cubs can realistically walk away from Theo right now unless the Red Sox demands were completely ridiculous, and well, I like McNutt a lot, but I don't think McNutt should be completely untouchable in such a deal.

 

But that's me.

 

I cannot comprehend how the Red Sox who:

 

-Granted permission for the interview

-Have leaked that they've promoted a new GM

-Will owe an employee they don't want $6.5M

-Have nothing to gain by keeping Theo

 

have the leverage in this situation.

 

The Red Sox have leverage IF

 

a) As noted in the Goldstein article today, they have the most desirable asset in the negotiations.

b) Are willing to eat the money owed to Theo.

c) Are willing to live with WWTD articles if the Red Sox struggle or fail to make a move.

 

Are any of these things reasonable from an overall business management perspective? No. Do I think they would do it? Probably not. But in business, leverage comes from perception as much as it comes from reality at times (speaking very generically). Furthermore, Lucchino's been looking to get back at his protege for some time, after Theo essentially won a power struggle in Boston. When emotions are at play, what is reasonable isn't always what is prioritized, and let's face it, with Theo gone, until it's shown otherwise, Lucchino has Henry and Werner's ear. I'd also add that they could view intellectual property not working as being better than having intellectual property go elsewhere. I have no idea how they view things, but if they are willing to do it or willing to let everyone think they'll do it, well, perception matters a lot in business.

 

For all the bluster about how we have a lot of Plan B's available, and for all the talk about how GM's don't matter, Theo to the Cubs has been so built up that turning away from it now is much harder than people think. For all the talk about PR spin, most fans don't give a rats ass about minor leaguers, to be honest. I do, many here do, but in general? Not that much. Furthermore, the longer the situation drags out, the tougher the situation is for any incoming GM to assess the organization, to build up the systems he needs, and so forth.

 

Now, in saying that, if they are asking for McNutt and more (and Goldstein and Mooney suggest that) and want to limit who Theo can take, then I think you call their bluff. But both sides need this deal

[minnesotacubsfan]

Epstein + Beckett for McNutt and cash.

 

 

i

[tfarks]

I think toonster hit the nail on the head regarding McNutt as going from a bit overrated to underrated based on some of these comments.

 

This guy is not far away from the bigs.

[Elrhino]

Is there anything to stop the Cubs from hiring Josh Byrnes as the GM for 2012, then bringing in Theo as President of Baseball Ops at the end of the season? From what I understand, that's how it might end up anyway.

 

That's what I would do. Next year will be about establishing infrastructure, I don't see why Byrnes can't get the process started right away (perhap with Theo advising under the radar) for a year until Theo is free from his contract.

 

In the meantime, every young and talented executive gets a glimpse of how the Red Sox operate, and gets to evaluate that into any future hiring decisions.

[toonsterwu]

Someone posted earlier that, that's not the equation. Ok, what is? What is Theo worth to the Cubs beyond the next choice for GM?

 

That's the key here. It doesn't matter how much Epstein is worth compared to Jim Hendry or me or you. It matters how much Epstein is worth over Rick Hahn or Josh Byrnes or whoever. And the answer is: Not a nearly-ready prospect with any impact potential. Those things are worth quite a bit.

I don't agree with your first point.

 

And McNutt is not a nearly ready prospect.

 

Well, that really comes down to how you define nearly ready. He very well could be ready at some point in 2012, if he is healthy. He's close to being bullpen ready, as soon as he finds consistency on the breaking ball again, and being rotation ready will probably take a few more months, but 2012 isn't out of the question. The stuff, potential are all there, and it's clear that the injuries, blisters and ribs, hampered him this year (the ribs issue was more evident with his control/command issues in the summer, but the blister issues could impact his potential to harness his secondary pitches).

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Is there anything to stop the Cubs from hiring Josh Byrnes as the GM for 2012, then bringing in Theo as President of Baseball Ops at the end of the season? From what I understand, that's how it might end up anyway.

 

That's what I would do. Next year will be about establishing infrastructure, I don't see why Byrnes can't get the process started right away (perhap with Theo advising under the radar) for a year until Theo is free from his contract.

 

In the meantime, every young and talented executive gets a glimpse of how the Red Sox operate, and gets to evaluate that into any future hiring decisions.

 

All things being equal, I think you have to presume Epstein's honesty. If the Red Sox are stupid enough to burn $6.5 million in a giant pile and have Epstein be their lame duck GM for 2012, then Epstein would tell Ricketts "see you in a year" and perform to the best of his abilities without helping the Cubs under the radar.

[WilcoFan]

Is there anything to stop the Cubs from hiring Josh Byrnes as the GM for 2012, then bringing in Theo as President of Baseball Ops at the end of the season? From what I understand, that's how it might end up anyway.

 

 

This is not happening. Why do people keep dreaming up some "lame duck Theo in Boston for a year" scenario where he'll come here after the season?

 

 

Epstein will be ours. Not in a year. In days.

 

 

The point is not that this is happening. The point is that the idea of "Boston leverage" can be pretty much mitigated by this proposal. If Boston were to take the stance that some of the SOSH posters are talking, the Cubs could easily do this and lose nothing.

[Elrhino]

Someone posted earlier that, that's not the equation. Ok, what is? What is Theo worth to the Cubs beyond the next choice for GM?

 

That's the key here. It doesn't matter how much Epstein is worth compared to Jim Hendry or me or you. It matters how much Epstein is worth over Rick Hahn or Josh Byrnes or whoever. And the answer is: Not a nearly-ready prospect with any impact potential. Those things are worth quite a bit.

 

Especially when it's not so much a matter of turning away the possibility of Epstein, but just delaying it for 12 months.

[ScrubMD]

I don't believe asking for McNutt is unreasonable. He had a good season in 2010, then blisters and pulled muscles in 2011. Chances are he never makes it to the big leagues.

How do I put this delicately...

 

 

 

 

drawing a blank.

Put it any way you want. I don't have to win. I just posted that. Just don't violate your own rules like you just did.

 

If you think McNutt or any minor leaguer is more important to the Cubs than Theo, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Someone posted earlier that, that's not the equation. Ok, what is? What is Theo worth to the Cubs? It doesn't matter what is going on in Boston. The Cubs are either going to get him or they are not.

 

Some people act like asking for compensation is beyond the bounds of sanity. It's not.

 

You still haven't figured out it's not Theo vs whatever prospect? Poor guy

[Hairyducked Idiot]

The point is not that this is happening. The point is that the idea of "Boston leverage" can be pretty much mitigated by this proposal. If Boston were to take the stance that some of the SOSH posters are talking, the Cubs could easily do this and lose nothing.

 

It's the sort of Machiavellian fantasy about negotiations that you often see sports fans delve into that has no bearing on real life. It makes no sense for either side to let this deal fall apart.

[Hollandsworths mug]

The people on this site obsessed with McNutt and the Cubs minor league system are hilarious. These same people loved Bobby Browlie, Corey Patterson and Luis Montanez, just to name a few.

 

The fact remains is that McNutt has seen his ERA climb to 4.72 in AA ball. Seriously, he's talented but not worth more than a competent GM/President. We turned Archer into Garza. If we need to turn McNutt into Epstein, so be it.

[Banedon]

The people on this site obsessed with McNutt and the Cubs minor league system are hilarious. These same people loved Bobby Browlie, Corey Patterson and Luis Montanez, just to name a few.

 

The fact remains is that McNutt has seen his ERA climb to 4.72 in AA ball. Seriously, he's talented but not worth more than a competent GM/President. We turned Archer into Garza. If we need to turn McNutt into Epstein, so be it.

 

Why do you want Epstein for a general manager if you think the minor league system is so trivial?

[Guest]

I don't believe asking for McNutt is unreasonable. He had a good season in 2010, then blisters and pulled muscles in 2011. Chances are he never makes it to the big leagues.

How do I put this delicately...

 

 

 

 

drawing a blank.

Put it any way you want. I don't have to win. I just posted that. Just don't violate your own rules like you just did.

 

If you think McNutt or any minor leaguer is more important to the Cubs than Theo, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Someone posted earlier that, that's not the equation. Ok, what is? What is Theo worth to the Cubs? It doesn't matter what is going on in Boston. The Cubs are either going to get him or they are not.

 

Some people act like asking for compensation is beyond the bounds of sanity. It's not.

 

You still haven't figured out it's not Theo vs whatever prospect? Poor guy

Please help me then.

 

Right now it is Theo vs. whatever prospect(s). That's what's on the table. If it's not Theo, the Cubs will have to start over from some point. Maybe they've interviewed other candidates. But who wants to be second in a very public business process?

[UMFan83]

The people on this site obsessed with McNutt and the Cubs minor league system are hilarious. These same people loved Bobby Browlie, Corey Patterson and Luis Montanez, just to name a few.

 

The fact remains is that McNutt has seen his ERA climb to 4.72 in AA ball. Seriously, he's talented but not worth more than a competent GM/President. We turned Archer into Garza. If we need to turn McNutt into Epstein, so be it.

 

And those same people also loved Prior, Zambrano, Soto and Castro. I don't see how "sometimes prospects don't pan out" helps your argument at all.

 

The argument isn't "Is McNutt more valuable than Epstein" its "Why give up McNutt when we believe we can negotiate trading a lesser prospect?"

Edited October 17, 2011 by UMFan83

[Guest]

The fact remains is that McNutt has seen his ERA climb to 4.72 in AA ball. Seriously, he's talented but not worth more than a competent GM/President.

 

I give up.

[Hollandsworths mug]

The people on this site obsessed with McNutt and the Cubs minor league system are hilarious. These same people loved Bobby Browlie, Corey Patterson and Luis Montanez, just to name a few.

 

The fact remains is that McNutt has seen his ERA climb to 4.72 in AA ball. Seriously, he's talented but not worth more than a competent GM/President. We turned Archer into Garza. If we need to turn McNutt into Epstein, so be it.

 

And those same people also loved Prior, Zambrano, Soto and Castro. I don't see how "sometimes prospects don't pan out" helps your argument at all.

 

Prior and Soto are not exactly glaring examples of how great the farm system has been. Sure, Prior hot hurt so we'll never know. And Soto? Really? LOTS to prove there.

[C.C.]

The fact remains is that McNutt has seen his ERA climb to 4.72 in AA ball. Seriously, he's talented but not worth more than a competent GM/President.

 

I give up.

 

Hang in there. Theo will be a Cub by Wednesday.

[minnesotacubsfan]

I have no problem giving up McNutt for another stud bb player, but giving him up for a manager who we are already are giving a promotion to is insane.

 

Boston should settle for Brownlie and cash. and yes, I know BB isnt around anymore.