Cubs Acquire Garza for Archer, Lee, Guyer, Chirinos & Fuld

[fromthestretch]

Not an upgrade over Wells? Interesting. Has anyone here ever watched Garza pitch?

 

 

:shock:

 

I'm questioning if you've watched either of them pitch if you think he's a significant upgrade, especially when you factor in cost. Garza has better stuff, but he's been far from dominant. Furthermore, when you consider that he's a fly-ball pitcher that pitches roughly half his games in a stadium that suppresses offense, his numbers look even worse.

[bleedingblue]

Not an upgrade over Wells? Interesting. Has anyone here ever watched Garza pitch?

 

 

:shock:

 

I'm questioning if you've watched either of them pitch if you think he's a significant upgrade, especially when you factor in cost. Garza has better stuff, but he's been far from dominant. Furthermore, when you consider that he's a fly-ball pitcher that pitches roughly half his games in a stadium that suppresses offense, his numbers look even worse.

 

Of course, you forget to include that he pitches in the AL and the AL East, at that. Same division as the Yankees/Red Sox (two teams that put up massive number of runs a year).

[fromthestretch]

Not an upgrade over Wells? Interesting. Has anyone here ever watched Garza pitch?

 

 

:shock:

 

I'm questioning if you've watched either of them pitch if you think he's a significant upgrade, especially when you factor in cost. Garza has better stuff, but he's been far from dominant. Furthermore, when you consider that he's a fly-ball pitcher that pitches roughly half his games in a stadium that suppresses offense, his numbers look even worse.

 

Of course, you forget to include that he pitches in the AL and the AL East, at that. Same division as the Yankees/Red Sox (two teams that put up massive number of runs a year).

 

Again, his ERA+ and WAR was worse than Wells last season. Since ERA+ is calculated using league ERA and adjusts for ballparks, I fail to see how he's much of an upgrade. His fly-ball tendencies are a bit scary, as well.

 

This would not be a move that would make the Cubs noticeably better, and it would end up costing them more money. If they could trade some spare parts for Garza, then sure. But trading a significantly cheaper pitcher who's been pretty much just as effective doesn't make much sense.

[jersey cubs fan]

Garza is more than a year younger with more impressive career numbers to me.

[erik316wttn]

Gorz and Wells for Garza and a mid-level prospect?

[JonJayCutler]

Gorz and Wells for Garza and a mid-level prospect?

 

I wouldn't give up that much.

[jersey cubs fan]

Gorz and Wells for Garza and a mid-level prospect?

 

I wouldn't go past Wells alone. And it's not like I'd jump to do it either.

[minnesotacubsfan]

Garza scares me. I wasnt that impressed with him in Minnesota, he seemed to get rocked often

[JonJayCutler]

Gorz and Wells for Garza and a mid-level prospect?

 

I wouldn't give up that much.

 

Actually throw in another mid-level prospect and I probably make the deal.

[javy knows my name]

Gorz and Wells for Garza and a mid-level prospect?

I will be PIIIISSSED

[MWV]

If TB is interested in prospects in return, as Levine states, would they even want Wells? Furthermore, Levine claims neither B. Jackson nor Archer are not involved. What other prospects of ours would net us Garza?

[jersey cubs fan]

Garza scares me. I wasnt that impressed with him in Minnesota, he seemed to get rocked often

 

He definitely did. He was also 23. Randy Wells was 27/28 this year and he was rocked for 5 or more runs on 9 occasions this season. Garza did it 7 times this year with three straight bad ones against Boston and the Yankees in September.

[Clem Fandango]

If TB is interested in prospects in return, as Levine states, would they even want Wells? Furthermore, Levine claims neither B. Jackson nor Archer are not involved. What other prospects of ours would net us Garza?

 

Carpenter? Dolis? McNutt? Lee?

[jersey cubs fan]

If TB is interested in prospects in return, as Levine states, would they even want Wells? Furthermore, Levine claims neither B. Jackson nor Archer are not involved. What other prospects of ours would net us Garza?

 

I don't see why they wouldn't be interested in a non-arb pitcher who should be decent this year. He's a cheaper replacement. If what they want is a haul of prospects then screw that.

[Northside Blues]

Garza's a guy who could excel in the switch from AL to NL.

[javy knows my name]

Garza's a guy who could excel in the switch from AL to NL.

Why?

[Dr. Cub]

Not an upgrade over Wells? Interesting. Has anyone here ever watched Garza pitch?

 

 

:shock:

 

I'm questioning if you've watched either of them pitch if you think he's a significant upgrade, especially when you factor in cost. Garza has better stuff, but he's been far from dominant. Furthermore, when you consider that he's a fly-ball pitcher that pitches roughly half his games in a stadium that suppresses offense, his numbers look even worse.

 

Of course, you forget to include that he pitches in the AL and the AL East, at that. Same division as the Yankees/Red Sox (two teams that put up massive number of runs a year).

 

Again, his ERA+ and WAR was worse than Wells last season. Since ERA+ is calculated using league ERA and adjusts for ballparks, I fail to see how he's much of an upgrade. His fly-ball tendencies are a bit scary, as well.

 

This would not be a move that would make the Cubs noticeably better, and it would end up costing them more money. If they could trade some spare parts for Garza, then sure. But trading a significantly cheaper pitcher who's been pretty much just as effective doesn't make much sense.

 

The ERA+ was 102 to 101 in favor of Wells. No wonder you didn't put the numbers up. The three years previous, Garza had a 117, 119, and 110 ERA+. Last year Wells had a better WAR. The year previous to that, Garza had a better WAR.

[erik316wttn]

Garza's a guy who could excel in the switch from AL to NL.

 

I think so, too.

[fromthestretch]

Garza's a guy who could excel in the switch from AL to NL.

 

A lot of people keep saying this, but I'm not sure that it's an accurate statement. While he may see a slight improvement in his overall numbers, it's not like he's going to turn into Roy Halladay. Garza would probably be better off in the NL West, where the ballparks tend to be more favorable to fly-ball pitchers.

[Dr. Cub]

The price difference is around 3-4 million, so not too much. I would say Garza is more than a "little" better, with a longer track record of consistently good pitching. Garza was more than 1/3 of a run better in ERA (obviously that difference is likely to be much greater in switching the 2 pitchers leagues), plus a WHIP of 1.40 for Wells, and 1.25 for Garza. The typical ".50 ERA difference" in switching leagues makes these two pitchers quite different.

 

Now as for intent on adding 2nd tier pitching talent, I couldn't agree more.

 

Somehow what I was writing disappeared. Anyway, price difference should easily be $5m+ this season with Garza being arbitration eligible coming off a 15 win sub 4 ERA season.

 

Also, ERA should not be only way you judge him, and I believe his ERA might not be as good as advertised.

 

It isn't. In fact, his ERA+ was actually worse than Wells in 2010.

 

Plus...

 

Garza's 2010 WAR - 1.8

Wells' 2010 WAR - 3.3

 

Where are you getting these numbers? BR has them as:

 

Garza --- 2.0

Wells --- 2.9

 

In addition, Garza had a better WAR than Wells last year.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Dr. Cub

[erik316wttn]

Garza's a guy who could excel in the switch from AL to NL.

 

A lot of people keep saying this, but I'm not sure that it's an accurate statement. While he may see a slight improvement in his overall numbers, it's not like he's going to turn into Roy Halladay. Garza would probably be better off in the NL West, where the ballparks tend to be more favorable to fly-ball pitchers.

 

True, but he won't have to face the mega-offenses of Boston and New York, plus it's always easier for a pitcher to go from the AL to the NL than vice-versa because of no DH. Will he put up Halladay numbers? No. But I think his stats could improve.

Edited December 8, 2010 by erik316wttn

[minnesotacubsfan]

Garza scares me. I wasnt that impressed with him in Minnesota, he seemed to get rocked often

 

He definitely did. He was also 23. Randy Wells was 27/28 this year and he was rocked for 5 or more runs on 9 occasions this season. Garza did it 7 times this year with three straight bad ones against Boston and the Yankees in September.

 

I didnt say I was thrilled with Wells either

[MWV]

If TB is interested in prospects in return, as Levine states, would they even want Wells? Furthermore, Levine claims neither B. Jackson nor Archer are not involved. What other prospects of ours would net us Garza?

 

I don't see why they wouldn't be interested in a non-arb pitcher who should be decent this year. He's a cheaper replacement. If what they want is a haul of prospects then screw that.

I agree that they would probably bite on Wells (or I would, in their position). I was just wondering what package of prospects, since that is apparently their quarry, people thought would be reasonable to get Garza. I'm not worried about a Wells for Garza trade as much as I am a McNutt/Guyer/etc. for Garza trade.

[fromthestretch]

Not an upgrade over Wells? Interesting. Has anyone here ever watched Garza pitch?

 

 

:shock:

 

I'm questioning if you've watched either of them pitch if you think he's a significant upgrade, especially when you factor in cost. Garza has better stuff, but he's been far from dominant. Furthermore, when you consider that he's a fly-ball pitcher that pitches roughly half his games in a stadium that suppresses offense, his numbers look even worse.

 

Of course, you forget to include that he pitches in the AL and the AL East, at that. Same division as the Yankees/Red Sox (two teams that put up massive number of runs a year).

 

Again, his ERA+ and WAR was worse than Wells last season. Since ERA+ is calculated using league ERA and adjusts for ballparks, I fail to see how he's much of an upgrade. His fly-ball tendencies are a bit scary, as well.

 

This would not be a move that would make the Cubs noticeably better, and it would end up costing them more money. If they could trade some spare parts for Garza, then sure. But trading a significantly cheaper pitcher who's been pretty much just as effective doesn't make much sense.

 

The ERA+ was 102 to 101 in favor of Wells. No wonder you didn't put the numbers up. The three years previous, Garza had a 117, 119, and 110 ERA+. Last year Wells had a better WAR. The year previous to that, Garza had a better WAR.

 

OK, how about these numbers? Wells 2009 ERA+ was 146, compared to Garza's 110. The difference in their WAR that year could probably be attributed to the fact that Garza made five more starts.

 

No one is claiming that Wells is a world beater, and I've acknowledged that Garza has better stuff. That simply has not translated into significantly better performance that to me justifies trading a pitcher who has pretty much been just as effective the past two seasons and makes significantly less money.

[fromthestretch]

Garza's a guy who could excel in the switch from AL to NL.

 

A lot of people keep saying this, but I'm not sure that it's an accurate statement. While he may see a slight improvement in his overall numbers, it's not like he's going to turn into Roy Halladay. Garza would probably be better off in the NL West, where the ballparks tend to be more favorable to fly-ball pitchers.

 

True, but he won't have to face the mega-offenses of Boston and New York, plus it's always easier for a pitcher to go from the AL to the NL than vice-versa because of no DH. Will he put up Halladay numbers? No. But I think his stats could improve.

 

Saying he could improve is a lot different than saying he could "excel".