Cubs Acquire Garza for Archer, Lee, Guyer, Chirinos & Fuld

[BCVM22]

Vaguely remember the connecting points at this point, though. Didn't we trade Justin Jones and one other player to the Expos to get Doug Minkyalphabet so that he could be added to the package of players going to Boston?

 

Retrosheet says:

 

Boston Red Sox traded Nomar Garciaparra and Matt Murton to Chicago Cubs as part of

4-team trade in which Chicago Cubs sent Brendan Harris, Alex Gonzalez and Francis

Beltran to Montreal Expos; Montreal Expos sent Orlando Cabrera to Boston Red Sox;

Minnesota Twins sent Doug Mientkiewicz to Boston Red Sox; and Chicago Cubs sent

Justin Jones to Minnesota Twins.

 

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2004/07312004.htm

 

So the Cubs gave Harris, Gonzo and Francis Beltran to the Expos and Justin Jones to the Twins; the Expos kicked in Cabrera and the Twins kicked in Mientkiewicz, both to Boston.

[UMFan83]

I wasnt around here at the time, but just out of curiosity, how did people feel about trading Justin Jones for the remains of Nomar Garciaparra?

 

I would say Tree reacted the best out of anyone.

[NCCubFan]

i'm pretty sure it's long gone

I'm quite sure you're right about that. At one time older threads were deleted to try to fix frequent board crashes, and I think the Nomar thread was in the batch that was deleted.

[dew1679666265]

Trade possibilities like these are why I am glad I don't have any strong connection to any of our young boys besides Castro. Jimbo is going to trade them away.

 

Hendry's been very good in his time in Chicago about not trading away prospects who end up being good. I think Tim's point was, just about none of the prospects Hendry has dealt have turned into good MLB players outside of Nolasco and Mitre (somewhat) in the Pierre deal.

 

He's not one to trade away prospects on a whim.

[dew1679666265]

I wish Wills wasn't included among the list of names to get Alfonseca and Clement. The 03 rotation for one year would be up there with the best of all-time with Willis instead of Estes. Wish they wouldve grabbed Guzman instead.

 

Would Willis have been in the majors in 03 for us? Management liked Estes for whatever reason and I think we had Cruz behind him on the ML roster. One of the reasons I didn't dislike trading Willis in that deal is because he was blocked for the forseeable future and likely wouldn't have reached the majors for a while for us.

 

That said, that would have been a fantastic rotation if it had happened.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Personally, I remember thinking it was the greatest thing ever. We plugged an elite shortstop into a lineup already boasting Sammy Sosa, Moises Alou, Aramis Ramirez, Derrek Lee, and young Corey Patterson and Michael Barrett, not to mention a steller starting rotation, so how could we lose? I was never a fan of Francis Beltran or Gonzo, and didnt have an opinion of Brendan Harris, who eventually proved himself to be a Ryan Theriot clone. Id heard about Justin Jones,but at the time, in my mind minor leaguers were basically currency, besides, we had Woody, Prior, Zambrano, and Clement, with Angel Guzman waiting in the wings, and I had my eye on a kid named Rickey Nollasco, so we wouldnt be needing a starter anytime soon anyway.

 

I also remember a romored 3 way deal before the Nomar trade that would have sent Orlando Cabrera to the Cubs and Randy Johnson would be invloved, but I forget which team hed have ended up with, but it wasnt the Cubs. Yup, the good old days.

[Backtobanks]

Trade possibilities like these are why I am glad I don't have any strong connection to any of our young boys besides Castro. Jimbo is going to trade them away.

 

Hendry's been very good in his time in Chicago about not trading away prospects who end up being good. I think Tim's point was, just about none of the prospects Hendry has dealt have turned into good MLB players outside of Nolasco and Mitre (somewhat) in the Pierre deal.

 

He's not one to trade away prospects on a whim.

 

Hendry always has been a proponent of developing and playing prospects. Baker and Piniella wanted veterans to fill any holes on the team, so Hendry would accomodate them.

[Banedon]

lol...this thread really has a lot of baseball nerd nostalgia. I was almost as giddy (or maybe more giddy) about the Cubs getting Nomar then I was about the Bears getting Cutler.

[pccubfan]

I think you guys are giving Hendry too much credit. It's not like the Cubs are loaded with homegrown talent either. Hendry hasn't traded a prospect that has done well elsewhere because the system has stunk and none were developed.

 

Hendry has resisted trading his top prospect and so far Castro is the only one who has amounted to anything. I won't give him credit for Prior because he was a no-brainer that wasn't developed within the system and he wasn't the GM when Prior was drafted.

[rawaction]

lol...this thread really has a lot of baseball nerd nostalgia. I was almost as giddy (or maybe more giddy) about the Cubs getting Nomar then I was about the Bears getting Cutler.

 

I felt about the same honestly. Getting Nomar was the first time I felt like the Cubs had a legit shot to win a World Series since October 1984. I felt like it was going to be the start of the Cubs being perennial contenders built around its core of young great starting pitching, Corey Patterson, a never aging Sammy Sosa, and a stacked farm system, which brought along with it the ability to go out and plug in major pieces like Nomar to make a run every year.

 

With Cutler, it was the first time the Bears had a legit QB in franchise history which was the missing link keeping the Bears from sustained success.

[dew1679666265]

I think you guys are giving Hendry too much credit. It's not like the Cubs are loaded with homegrown talent either. Hendry hasn't traded a prospect that has done well elsewhere because the system has stunk and none were developed.

 

Hendry has resisted trading his top prospect and so far Castro is the only one who has amounted to anything. I won't give him credit for Prior because he was a no-brainer that wasn't developed within the system and he wasn't the GM when Prior was drafted.

 

You're forgetting:

 

Soto

Theriot

Wells

Cruz

Marmol

Marshall

Zambrano

Wood

Patterson

 

And that's not counting guys like Nolasco, Justin Speier, Eric Hinske and others who were developed by us but were productive elsewhere. The farm system has developed primarily pitchers, but it has been productive over Hendry's tenure.

 

Also, before Hendry was GM he was the farm director - Tim Wilken's current role. He would have had significant input (and perhaps final decision making) in all matters of the farm - including drafting Prior.

[pccubfan]

I think you guys are giving Hendry too much credit. It's not like the Cubs are loaded with homegrown talent either. Hendry hasn't traded a prospect that has done well elsewhere because the system has stunk and none were developed.

 

Hendry has resisted trading his top prospect and so far Castro is the only one who has amounted to anything. I won't give him credit for Prior because he was a no-brainer that wasn't developed within the system and he wasn't the GM when Prior was drafted.

 

You're forgetting:

 

Soto

Theriot

Wells

Cruz

Marmol

Marshall

Zambrano

Wood

Patterson

 

And that's not counting guys like Nolasco, Justin Speier, Eric Hinske and others who were developed by us but were productive elsewhere. The farm system has developed primarily pitchers, but it has been productive over Hendry's tenure.

 

Wood was prior to Hendry. Zambrano was before Hendry was gm. Patterson and Pie were #1 prospects that Hendry didn't trade, but were misses. The rest, outside of Cruz, weren't highly thought of while in the minors and could all have been had in a trade if any team had wanted them.

[dew1679666265]

Wood was prior to Hendry. Zambrano was before Hendry was gm. Patterson and Pie were #1 prospects that Hendry didn't trade, but were misses. The rest, outside of Cruz, weren't highly thought of while in the minors and could all have been had in a trade if any team had wanted them.

 

I didn't mention Pie because he hasn't been particularly productive. Patterson was very good for a season and was decent for another couple of seasons. Not up to expectations by any means, but much better than "anything" which was your standard.

 

Your point was that the farm didn't develop anything outside of Castro. That's completely incorrect and those players show it. And it's futile to debate the availability of any of those players because there's no way we can know for sure. But that's not the point you made. You said the farm system has sucked and it hasn't.

Edited December 25, 2010 by dew

[CUBZ99]

Wood was prior to Hendry. Zambrano was before Hendry was gm. Patterson and Pie were #1 prospects that Hendry didn't trade, but were misses. The rest, outside of Cruz, weren't highly thought of while in the minors and could all have been had in a trade if any team had wanted them.

 

Z was exceptionally highly thought of and was demanded in numerous trades - he was rumored to be part of the reason we didn't get Scott Rolen from the Phillies. Marshall was top 7 prospect for two seasons for the Cubs as well. I couldn't find when Hendry became Cubs' farm director, but just because he wasn't GM doesn't mean he didn't have a hand in the farm system. As the farm director he probably had as much input - or more - in the farm than Ed Lynch did. I'm not sure he was farm director while Wood was in the minors, but it's possible.

 

I didn't mention Pie because he hasn't been particularly productive. Patterson was very good for a season and was decent for another couple of seasons. Not up to expectations by any means, but much better than "anything" which was your standard.

 

Your point was that the farm didn't develop anything outside of Castro. That's completely incorrect and those players show it. And it's futile to debate the availability of any of those players because there's no way we can know for sure. But that's not the point you made. You said the farm system has sucked and it hasn't.

 

If only Hendry had traded Rich Hill when he was highly coveted.

[dew1679666265]

Marshall was the Cubs' top 6 and 7 prospect for two seasons. Soto was the Cubs' #2 prospect entering the 2008 season, likely highly valuable at that point. Neither was likely to net the Cubs elite players, but both were top 10 prospects in the Cubs' system, which is significant and likely means they were coveted to some degree.

 

Also, if the problem is that the Cubs haven't developed any talent outside of Castro, then how did these players nobody coveted make the majors and be productive (and in some cases, great)?

[pccubfan]

Wood was prior to Hendry. Zambrano was before Hendry was gm. Patterson and Pie were #1 prospects that Hendry didn't trade, but were misses. The rest, outside of Cruz, weren't highly thought of while in the minors and could all have been had in a trade if any team had wanted them.

 

I didn't mention Pie because he hasn't been particularly productive. Patterson was very good for a season and was decent for another couple of seasons. Not up to expectations by any means, but much better than "anything" which was your standard.

 

Your point was that the farm didn't develop anything outside of Castro. That's completely incorrect and those players show it. And it's futile to debate the availability of any of those players because there's no way we can know for sure. But that's not the point you made. You said the farm system has sucked and it hasn't.

 

Okay, I may have overstated by saying anything. Your list included less than fifteen players and covered a significant amount of time. That is far from impressive.

 

How would you compare the Cubs minor league system in terms of production of major league players with that of other franchises? I think you could produce a better list for most organizations. I haven't gone through and produced similar lists but feel underwhelmed by the list you produced. If I'm wrong, sorry.

[pccubfan]

Marshall was the Cubs' top 6 and 7 prospect for two seasons. Soto was the Cubs' #2 prospect entering the 2008 season, likely highly valuable at that point. Neither was likely to net the Cubs elite players, but both were top 10 prospects in the Cubs' system, which is significant and likely means they were coveted to some degree.

 

Also, if the problem is that the Cubs haven't developed any talent outside of Castro, then how did these players nobody coveted make the majors and be productive (and in some cases, great)?

 

I will choose my words more carefully in the future. The Cubs have developed talent, it just hasn't been equal to most of their competition.

[Splendid Splinter]

I didn't mention Pie because he hasn't been particularly productive. Patterson was very good for a season and was decent for another couple of seasons. Not up to expectations by any means, but much better than "anything" which was your standard.

 

 

Well to be fair though, I think Pie been productive the past 2 years with the Orioles (98 and 93 OPS+) even though it's about a season's worth of PAs. Not up to expectations like you said, but he certainly been shown flashes of his potential and starting to come around with the bat. I blame partially on Lou on the way he handled Pie when he was up in the majors. He basically didn't have a chance to show his stuff and Lou wasn't gonna wait around for it (cuz Cubs were doing well in 2007/2008).

 

I think while Cubs have been producing quality (and good) players from their farm system, what they been lacking is the "elite or can't miss" or high impact prospects that turn into really good or great players like some of the other teams have produced that the list doesn't really get your attention when you look at it. At least that's how I see it... If you don't understand that, then here's my question.... when did the Cubs had a prospect like Ryan Braun/Joey Votto/Prince Fielder/Jay Bruce/Andrew McCutchen/Roy Oswalt/Yovanni Gallardo/etc... That's just players from our division. Closest thing to that is Soto nowadays, Z sometimes (when his head is on straight and actually pitching like he did this last half of the season), and Prior (we all know how that went)... Now we can add Castro to that list so that's 4 in the past 10 years...

 

Now I'm starting to feel good about the Cubs farm system again that I think we will see some of these prospects turn into something. I like what I'm seeing from B Jax/Archer/McNutt/Hak Ju Lee/etc... It reminds me of the Cubs farm system at the beginning of 2000s when it was really good, but hopefully it'll be better than that.

[illiniguy]

I didn't mention Pie because he hasn't been particularly productive. Patterson was very good for a season and was decent for another couple of seasons. Not up to expectations by any means, but much better than "anything" which was your standard.

 

 

Well to be fair though, I think Pie been productive the past 2 years with the Orioles (98 and 93 OPS+) even though it's about a season's worth of PAs. Not up to expectations like you said, but he certainly been shown flashes of his potential and starting to come around with the bat. I blame partially on Lou on the way he handled Pie when he was up in the majors. He basically didn't have a chance to show his stuff and Lou wasn't gonna wait around for it (cuz Cubs were doing well in 2007/2008).

 

I think while Cubs have been producing quality (and good) players from their farm system, what they been lacking is the "elite or can't miss" or high impact prospects that turn into really good or great players like some of the other teams have produced that the list doesn't really get your attention when you look at it. At least that's how I see it... If you don't understand that, then here's my question.... when did the Cubs had a prospect like Ryan Braun/Joey Votto/Prince Fielder/Jay Bruce/Andrew McCutchen/Roy Oswalt/Yovanni Gallardo/etc... That's just players from our division. Closest thing to that is Soto nowadays, Z sometimes (when his head is on straight and actually pitching like he did this last half of the season), and Prior (we all know how that went)... Now we can add Castro to that list so that's 4 in the past 10 years...

 

Now I'm starting to feel good about the Cubs farm system again that I think we will see some of these prospects turn into something. I like what I'm seeing from B Jax/Archer/McNutt/Hak Ju Lee/etc... It reminds me of the Cubs farm system at the beginning of 2000s when it was really good, but hopefully it'll be better than that.

4 really good payers in a decade cannot be that bad. Also remember we weren't drafting at the top of the draft the entire run as we had a pretty good decade.

[Backtobanks]

I think you guys are giving Hendry too much credit. It's not like the Cubs are loaded with homegrown talent either. Hendry hasn't traded a prospect that has done well elsewhere because the system has stunk and none were developed.

 

Hendry has resisted trading his top prospect and so far Castro is the only one who has amounted to anything. I won't give him credit for Prior because he was a no-brainer that wasn't developed within the system and he wasn't the GM when Prior was drafted.

 

For all of the criticism of Hendry, lets not forget that he turned these "worthless" prospects into some pretty decent ML talent via trades. What does this say about all of those highly regarded GMs that accepted these lousy prospects.

[Splendid Splinter]

4 really good payers in a decade cannot be that bad. Also remember we weren't drafting at the top of the draft the entire run as we had a pretty good decade.

 

 

I don't think it's that bad either, but it's not good as well. I think it's probably the lower half out of all the teams. Out of those 4, Prior only lasted a couple years and hasn't pitched in like 5 years. Castro just started out, but he'll be good. Soto been good, but get screwed around by Lou/Quade cuz they like Koyie Hill. Not true that Cubs didn't get to draft at the top of the draft cuz they drafted in the top 10 4 times (2000/2001/2003/2007 and from 2000-2010, their avg draft spot was 13.4), but it's not like they were drafting at the end of the 1st round either (only once they drafted later than 21st pick- 2009) and doesn't matter really cuz some of these guys I mentioned weren't drafted in the 1st round. Most of them were I think, but there's a few that weren't. Cubs are good with their pitching prospects and one of the best at getting quality pitching prospects every year it seems like... It's the lack of an offensive prospect and that's HUGE. You have to downgrade them a bit for that.

 

 

For example: (these are guys who were drafted by their teams in the NL Central (some before this decade) and played this decade for the same team)

 

Cubs: Z/Prior/Castro/Soto

Brewers: Fielders/Braun/Weeks/Hart

Reds: Votto/Bruce/Cueto/Stubbs

Pirates: McCutchen/Alvarez/Kendall/Mike Gonzalez

Astros: Oswalt/Berkman/Pence/Biggio

Cardinals: Pujols/Rasmus/Ankiel/Garcia

 

I mean when was the last time Cubs had a position player that made an impact on the offensive side for a good amount of years (let say at least 5 or 6 years) that they drafted or signed as an amateur... Mark Grace??? If it's him, then it's been since 1985 (when they drafted him) or 1988 (when he debuted). That's a long time for an impact offensive player. Like I said before, Soto is the closest thing to it right now, but hopefully Quade won't bench him a lot for Koyie freakin' Hill or he goes back to 2009 season.

[dew1679666265]

Okay, I may have overstated by saying anything. Your list included less than fifteen players and covered a significant amount of time. That is far from impressive.

 

How would you compare the Cubs minor league system in terms of production of major league players with that of other franchises? I think you could produce a better list for most organizations. I haven't gone through and produced similar lists but feel underwhelmed by the list you produced. If I'm wrong, sorry.

 

That list was just off the top of my head in a couple minutes of thinking, so I could well be forgetting some players. I also didn't include guys largely developed by the Cubs who moved on (Speier, Nolasco, Mitre, etc) in trades. I'm not sure the full list would be much larger, but I probably forgot a few guys here and there.

 

As for comparing to other teams, I honestly would have no real idea. My guess (and it's a pure guess) is that we are middle of the pack in developing talent. I think the pitching side has been pretty solid, but we're lacking in developing bats. Part of that might be drafting at the bottom of a bunch of drafts, part of it might be having a really poor farm system while John Stockstill was in charge and some of it might be poor strategy/execution by management.

 

Basically, I think the development over Hendry's tenure could and should have been better, but I'd be surprised if it was in the bottom of the league. The positive is, we have what appears to be a strong system now and it's only getting stronger as the high-end low class players are developing.

[dew1679666265]

Well to be fair though, I think Pie been productive the past 2 years with the Orioles (98 and 93 OPS+) even though it's about a season's worth of PAs. Not up to expectations like you said, but he certainly been shown flashes of his potential and starting to come around with the bat. I blame partially on Lou on the way he handled Pie when he was up in the majors. He basically didn't have a chance to show his stuff and Lou wasn't gonna wait around for it (cuz Cubs were doing well in 2007/2008).

 

Yeah, I didn't want to get into why Pie hasn't been productive, but at this point it's hard to say he's anything other than a bust. If he can continue to show signs, he may get a shot and start producing (I'd love to see it), but he hasn't produced much as of yet and that's why I didn't include him.

[dew1679666265]

I don't think it's that bad either, but it's not good as well. I think it's probably the lower half out of all the teams. Out of those 4, Prior only lasted a couple years and hasn't pitched in like 5 years. Castro just started out, but he'll be good. Soto been good, but get screwed around by Lou/Quade cuz they like Koyie Hill. Not true that Cubs didn't get to draft at the top of the draft cuz they drafted in the top 10 4 times (2000/2001/2003/2007 and from 2000-2010, their avg draft spot was 13.4), but it's not like they were drafting at the end of the 1st round either (only once they drafted later than 21st pick- 2009) and doesn't matter really cuz some of these guys I mentioned weren't drafted in the 1st round. Most of them were I think, but there's a few that weren't. Cubs are good with their pitching prospects and one of the best at getting quality pitching prospects every year it seems like... It's the lack of an offensive prospect and that's HUGE. You have to downgrade them a bit for that.

 

 

For example: (these are guys who were drafted by their teams in the NL Central (some before this decade) and played this decade for the same team)

 

Cubs: Z/Prior/Castro/Soto

Brewers: Fielders/Braun/Weeks/Hart

Reds: Votto/Bruce/Cueto/Stubbs

Pirates: McCutchen/Alvarez/Kendall/Mike Gonzalez

Astros: Oswalt/Berkman/Pence/Biggio

Cardinals: Pujols/Rasmus/Ankiel/Garcia

 

I think your list should include Wood, Marshall, Wells and Theriot - depending on what your standards are for the list. I'm not entirely sure what the standard is for listing players there, but all three of those players were productive for the Cubs - very much so for Wood and Marshall. Also, if you're going to include Garcia, Alvarez and Stubbs, I think you also have to include Colvin for the Cubs. I know the feelings on the board about him, but he was still productive last season and could continue that. Also, Ankiel shouldn't be on that list if you're listing good players. He had one good season and has been mediocre to bad since then. If Ankiel makes the list, there's no reason Rich Hill shouldn't.

 

Also, I don't think it's fair to downgrade Prior. He was drafted by the Cubs, developed (for the little the team had to do) and was highly productive. Our farm system had nothing to do with his injuries.

 

I mean when was the last time Cubs had a position player that made an impact on the offensive side for a good amount of years (let say at least 5 or 6 years) that they drafted or signed as an amateur... Mark Grace??? If it's him, then it's been since 1985 (when they drafted him) or 1988 (when he debuted). That's a long time for an impact offensive player. Like I said before, Soto is the closest thing to it right now, but hopefully Quade won't bench him a lot for Koyie freakin' Hill or he goes back to 2009 season.

 

There has been a pretty big lull, but with a purpose. The strategy of the MacPhail era was to focus on pitching first and foremost in the minors and fill offensive holes through free agency/trades. Much like the Braves' model. We've had the elite pitching off and on, but signing a good, but not great, player to an elite player contract (Soriano) has hurt our offense. The Lee, Aramis, Soriano moves were right in line with that strategy, but a fringe elite bat and two good bats just aren't enough to lead an offense.

[Splendid Splinter]

I think your list should include Wood, Marshall, Wells and Theriot - depending on what your standards are for the list. I'm not entirely sure what the standard is for listing players there, but all three of those players were productive for the Cubs - very much so for Wood and Marshall. Also, if you're going to include Garcia, Alvarez and Stubbs, I think you also have to include Colvin for the Cubs. I know the feelings on the board about him, but he was still productive last season and could continue that. Also, Ankiel shouldn't be on that list if you're listing good players. He had one good season and has been mediocre to bad since then. If Ankiel makes the list, there's no reason Rich Hill shouldn't.

 

Also, I don't think it's fair to downgrade Prior. He was drafted by the Cubs, developed (for the little the team had to do) and was highly productive. Our farm system had nothing to do with his injuries.

 

There has been a pretty big lull, but with a purpose. The strategy of the MacPhail era was to focus on pitching first and foremost in the minors and fill offensive holes through free agency/trades. Much like the Braves' model. We've had the elite pitching off and on, but signing a good, but not great, player to an elite player contract (Soriano) has hurt our offense. The Lee, Aramis, Soriano moves were right in line with that strategy, but a fringe elite bat and two good bats just aren't enough to lead an offense.

 

 

I was trying to keep it at 4 guys for each team so I guess it should've been the 4 best prospects each team in the division. Wood should've been in there instead of Castro, but I was trying to mix older and newer players. Yes Cubs had other players as well, but so did other teams like Lidge for the Astros and Gallardo/Sheets for the Brewers and heck A Ram for the Pirates (if you wanna get technical about it). As far as Garcia/Alvarez/Stubbs... I really couldn't find or know anyone that should've been in the top 4 from those teams. I did the list to compare Cubs to the division rivals in terms of prospects and "elite" players from each team. If you look at that list from those 4, who looks better than the Cubs? I have to say Brewers/Astros/Cardinals look better there. Reds, IMO, are worse for now and Pirates are close behind the Cubs (due to my thinking that Alvarez will be a stud). Maybe I should've went to like top 10 "prospects to productive MLB players" for each team to "paint" a better picture of each farm system. It was also showing the Cubs "lack" of impact bat as the other teams had at least one (yes Kendall was an impact bat with the Pirates for a C IMO)... Basically in other words, I was trying to show the "cream of the crop" talent level of each farm system. As for Ankiel, yeah maybe so, but he had one good hitting and pitching season each along with good partial seasons as well. Plus after Pujols/Rasmus, I didn't know who else Cardinals developed that was really more productive than Ankiel/Garcia. I pretty sure Cubs smoked everyone in the division in terms of pitching prospect and wouldn't be surprised if they were in the top 5 in all of MLB (most likely top 10 though).

 

I wasn't downgrading Prior. I was downgrading the Cubs for the lack of an impact bat or offensive prospects. Prior was just bad luck for the Cubs. He would've won a Cy Young or two by now had he not had those injuries.

 

Thanks for telling me about MacPhail's era. I never really gone into details with the Cubs (minors/organization/scouting/etc...) until about 2002-2003 or so (when I was 18-19). I didn't know how he was really (but I should really check into that though). Didn't know MacPhail focus on pitching that much. So basically Sosa and Soriano handcuffed the team a little in terms of their contracts and with the offense. Also you said the Braves model??? I must be thinking of another team or something because they signed Maddux/trade for Smoltz and also developed Chipper Jones/Andruw Jones/Javy Lopez/Ryan Klesko/David Justice/Jermaine Dye/Rafael Furcal... Braves were like the Rays right now. They developed both pitching and hitting prospects and are great at it. I agree with your last statement except for I think if Cubs could've had Lee's 2005 season in 2007 that it would've been enough to lead an offense. You also think after that period of time (Grace to now) that you would catch "lightning in a bottle" with one offensive prospect who produced at an All Star level for a few years regardless.