NBA PLAYOFF THREAD

[SouthSideRyan]

Yes, you [expletive] moron sideline reporter, this was the proudest win of Deron's career. A 1st round NBA playoff game 5 years into his career.

[SouthSideRyan]

Kidd isn't even better than Rose

[CubbieBum]

Yes, you [expletive] moron sideline reporter, this was the proudest win of Deron's career. A 1st round NBA playoff game 5 years into his career.

 

Haha sideline reports are almost all horrible. They ask the dumbest questions. They either have a very obvious answer or are a very cliche question that never gets much of an answer.

[ELCABALLO45]

Kidd isn't even better than Rose

 

I dunno, its pretty close. Obviously you would rather have Rose in the long run because of age but Jason Kidd is still freakin' good.

[Flames24Rulz]

 

That is still crazy. Deron is a better passer, can shoot from anywhere as well as drive pretty well. Right now Deron is better. I would take him over Rose in a trade. Rose may turn out better but at the worst with Deron you are getting 18-10. Rose may never reach that level.

 

Rose would certainly have more assists with a better cast (his scoring may go down) but 6 assists is still bad. Paul got 10.7 this year with crap around him except for West. Baron Davis also managed 8 assists with the Clippers. Heck even Devin Harris averaged 6.6.

 

I can't believe you're using assists to determine who's a good passer and who's not. If you've actually seen Rose play, you'd realize that he's a great passer. It doesn't help matters when you have teammates who constantly blow wide open jump shots to hinder your assist total.

 

And Devin Harris doesn't have the same problem? The Bulls are a playoff team, albeit a bad one, but the Nets were one of the worst teams ever. Are you really trying to argue Rose had a relatively low assist total solely because of his supporting cast when others on worse teams had higher assists totals?

 

Yes.

 

Rose had to average close to 20 shots down the stretch to get us into the playoffs. The assist numbers will rise when he gets support around him.

 

Well no [expletive] Sherlock. That does nothing to explain why he has lower assists than guys on much worse teams.

 

You can try to explain it by him having to shoot more down the stretch but if you looked it up (as I just did) you will find that isn't true. He indeed shot more at the end of the season with 18.8 attempts in April but take a wild guess at what month he averaged the most assists. April. In fact his two highest monthly averages where in the final two months of the season. He shot more than his season average in the last month and shot less than season average in the second to last month. Considering that he averaged the most assists in those two months it's pretty easy to see his assists, at least this season, weren't tied to how many shots he was taking.

 

I don't understand what the correlation is between being a great point guard and having a high assist total, but obviously you do.

 

To say Rose isn't even close to a top five guard when he made the [expletive] All-Star Game in his SECOND YEAR is borderline insane.

[CubbieBum]

Kidd isn't even better than Rose

 

I dunno, its pretty close. Obviously you would rather have Rose in the long run because of age but Jason Kidd is still freakin' good.

 

I guess it would really depend on the team. I make my list with a decent team in mind. Kidd is the better PG if the team is above .500 and thus has some other talent. Rose is better for a team that is awful because he can create his own shot.

 

To me Kidd makes everyone a lot better on his team and that is the most important quality in a PG to me. That is not to say Rose doesn't make the rest of the Bulls better, just that Kidd is a lot better at it distributing and creating great looks for teammates.

[CubbieBum]

 

I don't understand what the correlation is between being a great point guard and having a high assist total, but obviously you do.

 

To say Rose isn't even close to a top five guard when he made the [expletive] All-Star Game in his SECOND YEAR is borderline insane.

 

1. Because if you are just a scorer you are a SG. The PG's main objective is to create opportunities for his team which tends to lead to assists. Not sure I understand why someone would argue that assists aren't important to PG's.

 

2. Being an All-Star means squat in the NBA because it is done by fan votes. McGrady nearly made the All-Star team this year when he was healthy but not playing. McGrady likely would have if the media didn't make a huge fuss causing a influx of votes to push him out.

 

Plus try reading what I write. Rose is a top 6-10 PG in the league but to me the top 5 are quite a bit above the rest making everyone not in the top 5 a pretty far way from being in the top 5. Not sure how many more times I have to say this.

[imb]

rose wasnt voted into the all-star game numnuts

 

just admit you dont pay attention to basketball and shutup

[Derwood]

based on assists, I'd say LeBron James is the best PG in the league

[Andy]

A point guard's job is to create offense. If that means doing it for yourself because you're also the best scorer on the team, then so be it.

 

Rose dragged a team otherwise composed of one very good post player and a bunch of guys who have no [expletive] business starting in the NBA to the playoffs, and if the team hadn't been so ravaged by injuries he wouldn't have needed the last week to get that done. It's absolutely asinine to say he's not a top 5 PG because his assist numbers aren't high enough.

[bukie]

At this point, it's pretty neck and neck in terms of who is more valuable between Rose and Williams. Paul and Roy may have fallen slightly below them due to the injury. Nash and Kidd are still good, but Phoenix and Dallas would kill to trade them straight up for any of the prior 4, and possibly Tyreke Evans as well.

 

There are only 5 or 6 players in the league more valuable than Rose right now, so this whole discussion about whether he's a top 5 at his position is moronic.

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm biased, but I dont' think it's particularly close between Williams and Rose right now. Even if we're not considering defense, I'd take Williams.

 

Going forward, I can see arguments for Rose.

[tfarks]

Assist to TO ratio is important for a PG, since they do the majority of the ball handling. You'd like to see your PG have a high assist total, or if his main objective is to score, then to keep TO's to a minimum. If he can't handle that, he's usually just a SG not playing off the ball. I would agree that distribution is the priority of a PG. Nothing wrong with scoring a lot as the PG, as long as you're helping your team win. Its just not the PG position in the classical sense and you hope that rest of the offense doesn't struggle or become stagnant as your dribble the ball around for your own shot.

[Exile on Waveland]

A few things:

 

1. It's crazy to assert Rose isn't a top-5 point guard.

 

2. I'd definitely take Williams over him at this point; in fact, I'd take Williams over every point guard in the NBA (I believe illiniguy and I got killed a couple years ago for saying this, I doubt we do now with Paul's injury issues though).

 

3. I don't watch tons of NBA games -- especially Bulls games. So I'm at least partially ignorant. However, I know from watching him in college I never really considered Rose that great of a passer relative to other point guards. Perhaps this has changed. But it wouldn't stun me to see him have lower assist numbers than comparable point guards throughout his career, even when the offensive talent around him improves. He's a great player, but, from what I've seen, he's not a great passer/assist man. On that finite point, I'd have to agree with da bum.

[CubbieBum]

At this point, it's pretty neck and neck in terms of who is more valuable between Rose and Williams. Paul and Roy may have fallen slightly below them due to the injury. Nash and Kidd are still good, but Phoenix and Dallas would kill to trade them straight up for any of the prior 4, and possibly Tyreke Evans as well.

 

There are only 5 or 6 players in the league more valuable than Rose right now, so this whole discussion about whether he's a top 5 at his position is moronic.

 

Bukie that is a completely different argument. You are arguing about where he ranks in trade value. We have been arguing where he ranks currently in performance. If you want to talk trade value which takes into account age and potential to still get better then I would have no problem with someone putting Rose 1st although he would probably be 2nd or 3rd on my list.

[illiniguy]

A few things:

 

1. It's crazy to assert Rose isn't a top-5 point guard.

 

2. I'd definitely take Williams over him at this point; in fact, I'd take Williams over every point guard in the NBA (I believe illiniguy and I got killed a couple years ago for saying this, I doubt we do now with Paul's injury issues though).

 

3. I don't watch tons of NBA games -- especially Bulls games. So I'm at least partially ignorant. However, I know from watching him in college I never really considered Rose that great of a passer relative to other point guards. Perhaps this has changed. But it wouldn't stun me to see him have lower assist numbers than comparable point guards throughout his career, even when the offensive talent around him improves. He's a great player, but, from what I've seen, he's not a great passer/assist man. On that finite point, I'd have to agree with da bum.

Yeah man I got smoked for it. By my friends more than anyone. They don't bring up Chris Paul much anymore though.

[CubbieBum]

How about this. Instead of saying he is at this moment a top 5 PG in terms of skill why don't you actually put a top 5 list out there. No one has done this. I think someone of you when you are actually forced to look stuff up would at the very least see it is not ridiculous to have him outside the top 5. I can see arguments for having him just inside the top 5 but to me he is in the next group. Saying it is ridiculous to have him outside the top 5 screams of ignorance and no research. There are a lot of great PG's right now and depending on what you prefer in a PG there are a lot of ways to go. I much prefer a more traditional PG. I want a PG who is going to create for everyone more than someone who can be a dynamic scorer. That hurts Rose's value and is why a guy like Kidd and his above him for me.

[Flames24Rulz]

 

I don't understand what the correlation is between being a great point guard and having a high assist total, but obviously you do.

 

To say Rose isn't even close to a top five guard when he made the [expletive] All-Star Game in his SECOND YEAR is borderline insane.

 

1. Because if you are just a scorer you are a SG. The PG's main objective is to create opportunities for his team which tends to lead to assists. Not sure I understand why someone would argue that assists aren't important to PG's.

 

2. Being an All-Star means squat in the NBA because it is done by fan votes. McGrady nearly made the All-Star team this year when he was healthy but not playing. McGrady likely would have if the media didn't make a huge fuss causing a influx of votes to push him out.

 

Plus try reading what I write. Rose is a top 6-10 PG in the league but to me the top 5 are quite a bit above the rest making everyone not in the top 5 a pretty far way from being in the top 5. Not sure how many more times I have to say this.

 

Yes, I can read. That's exactly why I said it was moronic and insane to say that Rose isn't a top five point guard. It's even more moronic to say that the "top 5 are quite a bit above the rest" when you don't even include Rose in your top five.

 

I never said that assists weren't important to determine who's a good point guard and who's not. I did say that it shouldn't be the only criteria to decide who's a great point guard and who's not.

[illiniguy]

Top 5 points in my mind

1. Dwill

2. Rose

3. Nash

4. Paul

5. Billups

 

I don't know where to really classify a couple of guys though so my list could be a bit off. What are Evans and Curry?

[CubbieBum]

Top 5 points in my mind

1. Dwill

2. Rose

3. Nash

4. Paul

5. Billups

 

I don't know where to really classify a couple of guys though so my list could be a bit off. What are Evans and Curry?

 

I'm not sure this is a list of PG's in terms of skill. Paul being fourth on any list I would means taking injuries into account.

 

Curry is a PG in my eyes, Evans is more like Wade.

[CubbieBum]

based on assists, I'd say LeBron James is the best PG in the league

 

I haven't seen a whole lot of Cavs since they got Mo Williams but before they got him LeBron played like a PG. He brought the ball up and started the offense as much or more than most PG's did. There is/was a strong argument for classifying LeBron as a PG because his role on the team was what would normally be called a PG.

[illiniguy]

Top 5 points in my mind

1. Dwill

2. Rose

3. Nash

4. Paul

5. Billups

 

I don't know where to really classify a couple of guys though so my list could be a bit off. What are Evans and Curry?

 

I'm not sure this is a list of PG's in terms of skill. Paul being fourth on any list I would means taking injuries into account.

 

Curry is a PG in my eyes, Evans is more like Wade.

He lost the ligaments in one of his knees. That means he has bone grinding on bone. So yeah, as a point guard that needs his quickness, that's gonna drop him some in my mind. As for the rest of the list I would stand by it. Nash and Billups are still very great point guards.

[tfarks]

I'd have Rajon Rondo in my top 5. Top 5 d-bags as well.

[CubbieBum]

I did say that it shouldn't be the only criteria to decide who's a great point guard and who's not.

 

No one thinks that is case. I will take a PG who averaged 17 pts and 9 assists over a PG who is averaging 21 pts and 6 assists. Those three extra assists generates at least 6 more points for the team which means the 17-9 guy accounts directly for more points.

 

This obviously isn't everything. Turnovers, shooting percentages and all the other stuff factor in heavily.

[Vanilla Ice]

I am not nearly as knowledgeable about the NBA as I in some other sports, so I am not going to take a stance here. However, I looked up the +/- stats on 82games.com and the PER stats from Hollinger

PER

Paul        23.74
Nash        21.67
Williams    20.62
Billups     20.25
Rondo       19.18
Rose        18.69
Evans       18.28
Westbrook   17.90
Kidd        17.20
Curry       16.31

 

+/-

Nash        7.6
Williams    7.4
Paul        6.7
Rondo       5.1
Rose        4.8  
Kidd        4.3
Westbrook   3.8
Billups     3.6
Evans       0.8
Curry       0.3