Re: March Madness: The Thread

[illiniguy]

Gene Keady did that a lot as well. A lot of coaches do because it is hard to find a great true center because there are so few of them. However, playing a big 3/4 at center creates a mismatch against most teams.

Wait, a lot coaches do it cause there are no good centers, yet it creates a mismatch? How? If everyone is doing it how are you gaining a mismatch?

[Vanilla Ice]

Oh, come on. You know what he means.

[CubbieBum]

Gene Keady did that a lot as well. A lot of coaches do because it is hard to find a great true center because there are so few of them. However, playing a big 3/4 at center creates a mismatch against most teams.

Wait, a lot coaches do it cause there are no good centers, yet it creates a mismatch? How? If everyone is doing it how are you gaining a mismatch?

 

1.) Shane Battier, Glenn Robinson or even Carl Landry isn't a talent every team has.

 

2.) Most teams play a guy who is tall at center even if he sucks rather than go with a small lineup. Therefore playing an athletic guy that is 6'8" or so, strong enough to battle in the post for rebounds but athletic enough and with good enough range to step out and hit jumpers or threes creates a mismatch.

[hawkeyecub]

Oh, I forgot to ask: does anyone want to reconvene the Izzo-is-better-than-Coach K argument?

 

I'll stand by my argument that that there's no comparison between the 2 when it comes to actual coaching.

Coach K does have the market cornered on having his players coached up to hack the crap out of a ballhandler yet not get a foul called. If Izzo masters that, look out.

 

He has. I'm not sure where you're going with that. Izzo's teams are a hell of a lot more physical than K's.

[illiniguy]

Oh, I forgot to ask: does anyone want to reconvene the Izzo-is-better-than-Coach K argument?

 

I'll stand by my argument that that there's no comparison between the 2 when it comes to actual coaching.

Coach K does have the market cornered on having his players coached up to hack the crap out of a ballhandler yet not get a foul called. If Izzo masters that, look out.

 

He has. I'm not sure where you're going with that. Izzo's teams are a hell of a lot more physical than K's.

Yes they are, but they also are called for a lot more fouls.

[illiniguy]

Gene Keady did that a lot as well. A lot of coaches do because it is hard to find a great true center because there are so few of them. However, playing a big 3/4 at center creates a mismatch against most teams.

Wait, a lot coaches do it cause there are no good centers, yet it creates a mismatch? How? If everyone is doing it how are you gaining a mismatch?

 

1.) Shane Battier, Glenn Robinson or even Carl Landry isn't a talent every team has.

 

2.) Most teams play a guy who is tall at center even if he sucks rather than go with a small lineup. Therefore playing an athletic guy that is 6'8" or so, strong enough to battle in the post for rebounds but athletic enough and with good enough range to step out and hit jumpers or threes creates a mismatch.

One of these guys is not like the others. Landry played center in college didn't he? Plus a lot of people have players like Landry in college as he was a decent college player. He's done well for himself in the NBA, but he wasn't some huge name/talent in college. Especially when compared to the other two names you listed.

[Vanilla Ice]

Oh, I forgot to ask: does anyone want to reconvene the Izzo-is-better-than-Coach K argument?

 

I'll stand by my argument that that there's no comparison between the 2 when it comes to actual coaching.

Coach K does have the market cornered on having his players coached up to hack the crap out of a ballhandler yet not get a foul called. If Izzo masters that, look out.

 

He has. I'm not sure where you're going with that. Izzo's teams are a hell of a lot more physical than K's.

Yes they are, but they also are called for a lot more fouls.

Fouls per game called on the two teams over the last three years according to ESPN

                2010  2009  2008
Duke             18.1  18.1  19.2 
Michigan St.     18.0  19.3  18.5 

 

So basically even. Michigan State looks like they average about .3 or .4 more fouls per game or what you would expect from the more physical team

[CubbieBum]

Gene Keady did that a lot as well. A lot of coaches do because it is hard to find a great true center because there are so few of them. However, playing a big 3/4 at center creates a mismatch against most teams.

Wait, a lot coaches do it cause there are no good centers, yet it creates a mismatch? How? If everyone is doing it how are you gaining a mismatch?

 

1.) Shane Battier, Glenn Robinson or even Carl Landry isn't a talent every team has.

 

2.) Most teams play a guy who is tall at center even if he sucks rather than go with a small lineup. Therefore playing an athletic guy that is 6'8" or so, strong enough to battle in the post for rebounds but athletic enough and with good enough range to step out and hit jumpers or threes creates a mismatch.

One of these guys is not like the others. Landry played center in college didn't he? Plus a lot of people have players like Landry in college as he was a decent college player. He's done well for himself in the NBA, but he wasn't some huge name/talent in college. Especially when compared to the other two names you listed.

 

He wasn't talked about much because his team sucked but Landry averaged 18 and 7 his first year which was his only year with Keady. That's more points than Battier averaged in all but his senior year and Battier averaged 7 rebounds only in his senior year. I would and everyone else would take Battier given the choice but if Landry had been on a top team he would have been a household name.

 

Also all three were used as centers predominantly (at least I think Battier was) which is what the whole conversation is about. All three players are 6'8" or shorter but where used as centers mostly.

[NCCubFan]

Final ESPN/USA Today poll.

[chuckywang]

Final ESPN/USA Today poll.

 

Oh, who's the jerk that didn't put Butler no. 2?

[Guest]

Final ESPN/USA Today poll.

 

Oh, who's the jerk that didn't put Butler no. 2?

 

I'd check back on this site later - not sure how long it takes them to put up the ballots or if they'll put up the final ballot but its up for all of the other 19 weeks.

 

My best guess is Steve Fisher of San Diego State, Doug Wojcik of Tulsa or Scott Sutton of Oral Roberts because those three had Butler way lower than the other 28 voters in most of the polls.

[illiniguy]

Gene Keady did that a lot as well. A lot of coaches do because it is hard to find a great true center because there are so few of them. However, playing a big 3/4 at center creates a mismatch against most teams.

Wait, a lot coaches do it cause there are no good centers, yet it creates a mismatch? How? If everyone is doing it how are you gaining a mismatch?

 

1.) Shane Battier, Glenn Robinson or even Carl Landry isn't a talent every team has.

 

2.) Most teams play a guy who is tall at center even if he sucks rather than go with a small lineup. Therefore playing an athletic guy that is 6'8" or so, strong enough to battle in the post for rebounds but athletic enough and with good enough range to step out and hit jumpers or threes creates a mismatch.

One of these guys is not like the others. Landry played center in college didn't he? Plus a lot of people have players like Landry in college as he was a decent college player. He's done well for himself in the NBA, but he wasn't some huge name/talent in college. Especially when compared to the other two names you listed.

 

He wasn't talked about much because his team sucked but Landry averaged 18 and 7 his first year which was his only year with Keady. That's more points than Battier averaged in all but his senior year and Battier averaged 7 rebounds only in his senior year. I would and everyone else would take Battier given the choice but if Landry had been on a top team he would have been a household name.

 

Also all three were used as centers predominantly (at least I think Battier was) which is what the whole conversation is about. All three players are 6'8" or shorter but where used as centers mostly.

Battier was there when Boozer and Brand were there, he never played center. Also I am sure many people thought that since Purdue was fielding a JV team at the time that many of Landry's stats where inflated and thus that's why he wasn't talked about.

[mul21]

Fouls per game called on the two teams over the last three years according to ESPN

                2010  2009  2008
Duke             18.1  18.1  19.2 
Michigan St.     18.0  19.3  18.5 

 

So basically even. Michigan State looks like they average about .3 or .4 more fouls per game or what you would expect from the more physical team

 

Is that really accurate to look at it that way? I would think Duke gets a lot more opportunities to foul because there are a lot more possessions in one of their games than MSU. Could be way off, but I would think that would be a factor.

[Vanilla Ice]

Fouls per game called on the two teams over the last three years according to ESPN

                2010  2009  2008
Duke             18.1  18.1  19.2 
Michigan St.     18.0  19.3  18.5 

 

So basically even. Michigan State looks like they average about .3 or .4 more fouls per game or what you would expect from the more physical team

 

Is that really accurate to look at it that way? I would think Duke gets a lot more opportunities to foul because there are a lot more possessions in one of their games than MSU. Could be way off, but I would think that would be a factor.

Adjusted Tempo     2010     2009     2008
Duke               65.5     67.4     73.0
Michigan State     66.1     67.3     64.9

 

For this, I accounted that there were a different amount of games in each season.

 

Over the last three years

            Avg Fouls/Game       Avg Tempo       Avg Foul/2 Possessions
Duke              18.4             68.4            0.27
Michigan State    18.6             66.1            0.28

So per 200 possessions, Michigan State is called for one more foul than Duke. Not very much of a difference.

[Vanilla Ice]

Oh, and it is not that much work to do so I can test this on other teams or a few more years back if you guys are curious. It isn't that easy to find opponents number of fouls, though.

[illiniguy]

Oh, and it is not that much work to do so I can test this on other teams or a few more years back if you guys are curious. It isn't that easy to find opponents number of fouls, though.

That's actually pretty good information. Why wouldn't ESPN talk about that more to try and combat the Duke hate?

[Vanilla Ice]

Oh, and it is not that much work to do so I can test this on other teams or a few more years back if you guys are curious. It isn't that easy to find opponents number of fouls, though.

That's actually pretty good information. Why wouldn't ESPN talk about that more to try and combat the Duke hate?

I've been compiling a list; I have done Duke, Michigan State, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, Purdue, Illinois, Syracuse, Ohio State, WVU, Wisconsin, Villanova so far. Obviously the final number needs to be adjusted for a few things to get a sense of the officiating (physicality of team being the biggest)

 

Which schools would you think have the most fouls called per possession and which the least? So far, 3 schools have been called for way less fouls per possession than any of the other teams. Any guesses? Any more schools that you would be interested in?

[Exile on Waveland]

Oh, and it is not that much work to do so I can test this on other teams or a few more years back if you guys are curious. It isn't that easy to find opponents number of fouls, though.

That's actually pretty good information. Why wouldn't ESPN talk about that more to try and combat the Duke hate?

I've been compiling a list; I have done Duke, Michigan State, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, Purdue, Illinois, Syracuse, Ohio State, WVU, Wisconsin, Villanova so far. Obviously the final number needs to be adjusted for a few things to get a sense of the officiating (physicality of team being the biggest)

 

Which schools would you think have the most fouls called per possession and which the least? So far, 3 schools have been called for way less fouls per possession than any of the other teams. Any guesses? Any more schools that you would be interested in?

 

Wisconsin rarely fouls. I'd also guess Syracuse because of the zone. Ohio State plays a lot of zone, so perhaps them too.

[illiniguy]

Oh, and it is not that much work to do so I can test this on other teams or a few more years back if you guys are curious. It isn't that easy to find opponents number of fouls, though.

That's actually pretty good information. Why wouldn't ESPN talk about that more to try and combat the Duke hate?

I've been compiling a list; I have done Duke, Michigan State, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, Purdue, Illinois, Syracuse, Ohio State, WVU, Wisconsin, Villanova so far. Obviously the final number needs to be adjusted for a few things to get a sense of the officiating (physicality of team being the biggest)

 

Which schools would you think have the most fouls called per possession and which the least? So far, 3 schools have been called for way less fouls per possession than any of the other teams. Any guesses? Any more schools that you would be interested in?

UCLA, Pitt, and Georgetown. Three pretty tough minded defensive teams. I'd like to see their info.

[Vanilla Ice]

Average fouls called on them per 200 possessions over the last three years

UCONN                 21.31
UNC                   21.89
Syracuse              21.92
Ohio St.              23.08
UCLA                  23.98

Pittsburgh            25.5
Wisconsin             25.74
Kentucky              26.42
Kansas                26.76
Illinois              26.87
Duke                  26.90
Georgetown            27.06
Purdue                27.43

Missouri             28.07
Michigan  St.        28.14
West Virginia        28.73

Villanova            29.34
Kansas St.           30.29

[snoodmonger]

UNC isn't so surprising since they dont play D. Syracuse's zone probably protects them. Kinda surprised about UCLA. Figured they'd foul a little more.

[chuckywang]

Average fouls called on them per 200 possessions over the last three years

UCONN                 21.31
UNC                   21.89
Syracuse              21.92
Ohio St.              23.08
UCLA                  23.98

Pittsburgh            25.5
Wisconsin             25.74
Kentucky              26.42
Kansas                26.76
Illinois              26.87
Duke                  26.90
Georgetown            27.06
Purdue                27.43

Missouri             28.07
Michigan  St.        28.14
West Virginia        28.73

Villanova            29.34
Kansas St.           30.29

 

Do you know the ranks for all of them in D1?

[illiniguy]

Can you do home and away splits? i would love to see Wisconsin's difference.

 

The only thing I would add to this in reguards to Duke is sometimes the amount of team fouls doesn't matter, as everytime we play you it seems our best player has 3 fouls within the first minute. In the '04 Tourney Deron Williams played about 7 minutes against you. I guess Sean Dockery was too fast for Deron to handle. I just hope that none of the other Olympic teams discover that tape and suit him up in 2012. That could cost us the gold man.

[Andy]

Stevens has floated the idea of a Butler/Duke rematch for next season. It's too bad that wouldn't be played at Hinkle.

[Vanilla Ice]

Do you know the ranks for all of them in D1?

I only have the stats that I added to my excel spreadsheet, but I can add more pretty easily.

 

Can you do home and away splits? i would love to see Wisconsin's difference.

I am getting my tempo stats from kenpom and the fouls from ESPN. Unless you know of a site that would give me home/away splits for those two things, the only way to do it would be to go through the game logs. I might be willing to do that for a team or two, but depends what mood I am in.

 

The only thing I would add to this in reguards to Duke is sometimes the amount of team fouls doesn't matter, as everytime we play you it seems our best player has 3 fouls within the first minute. In the '04 Tourney Deron Williams played about 7 minutes against you. I guess Sean Dockery was too fast for Deron to handle. I just hope that none of the other Olympic teams discover that tape and suit him up in 2012. That could cost us the gold man.

I acknowledged earlier that this was one of your complaints about Duke, but I can't find a site that gives me opponent fouls per game so I can't do it. My guess is that Duke wouldn't be much different than other teams in that regard, but I certainly can't prove it at this point