Re: Jake Fox and Aaron Miles traded to Oakland for 3 prospects

[Rob]

In 1987 Nolan Ryan pitched 211.3 innings (good for 9th in the league). He did this with an ERA a quarter of run lower than anybody else in the league, and he lead the league in strikeouts. He allowed the second fewest HR/9. Had the highest K/BB ratio in the league. He allowed the fewest H/9.

 

Despite all of this, he went 8 - 16 and lead the league in losses.

 

W-L record is a joke and says a hell of a lot more about the team than it does about the pitcher. Anybody who still uses it to judge a pitcher's worth in this day and age needs to be taken out back and put out of their misery Old Yeller style.

[Cubswin11]

In 1987 Nolan Ryan pitched 211.3 innings (good for 9th in the league). He did this with an ERA a quarter of run lower than anybody else in the league, and he lead the league in strikeouts. He allowed the second fewest HR/9. Had the highest K/BB ratio in the league. He allowed the fewest H/9.

 

Despite all of this, he went 8 - 16 and lead the league in losses.

 

W-L record is a joke and says a hell of a lot more about the team than it does about the pitcher. Anybody who still uses it to judge a pitcher's worth in this day and age needs to be taken out back and put out of their misery Old Yeller style.

Agreed judging pitchers value by season-season wins is going to give you very mixed results on how good a pitcher actually is. However I do think wins can be used, to a point, for judging the value/effectiveness of a pitcher over a whole career. Along with all the other things like whip, era+, k/9, h/9, etc.

[Rob]

In 1987 Nolan Ryan pitched 211.3 innings (good for 9th in the league). He did this with an ERA a quarter of run lower than anybody else in the league, and he lead the league in strikeouts. He allowed the second fewest HR/9. Had the highest K/BB ratio in the league. He allowed the fewest H/9.

 

Despite all of this, he went 8 - 16 and lead the league in losses.

 

W-L record is a joke and says a hell of a lot more about the team than it does about the pitcher. Anybody who still uses it to judge a pitcher's worth in this day and age needs to be taken out back and put out of their misery Old Yeller style.

Agreed judging pitchers value by season-season wins is going to give you very mixed results on how good a pitcher actually is. However I do think wins can be used, to a point, for judging the value/effectiveness of a pitcher over a whole career. Along with all the other things like whip, era+, k/9, h/9, etc.

 

No, you can't.

 

The assumption that Wins might mean something in the long run is based on the idea that a pitcher is likely to be on an equal number of bad teams and good teams. Careers just aren't long enough to make that assumption, especially considering how long a team has control over a player when they break into the league.

 

There are numerous, better metrics to use in evaluating a player. I'd barely even bother to gloss over wins when trying to judge a player's worth.

[NCCubFan]

Name 5 HOF starting pitchers who do not have winning records.

 

Go ahead..we'll wait.

 

Bruce Sutter, Rollie Fingers and Satchel Paige.

He did say STARTING pitchers. Sutter had exactly zero major league starts, and Fingers and Paige had few enough starts they weren't considered starting pitchers.

[Sammy Sofa]

Name 5 HOF starting pitchers who do not have winning records.

 

Go ahead..we'll wait.

 

Bruce Sutter, Rollie Fingers and Satchel Paige.

He did say STARTING pitchers. Sutter had exactly zero major league starts, and Fingers and Paige had few enough starts they weren't considered starting pitchers.

 

Regardless, this was the key part of his response to benchwarmer's asinine thinking:

 

What any of that has to do with anything is beyond me. When's the last time Zambrano had a losing record? There are 68 pitchers in the hall of fame. 41 have worse winning percentages than Zambrano. 19 have worse winning percentages than Kerry Wood.

[Benchwarmer]

Name 5 HOF starting pitchers who do not have winning records.

 

Go ahead..we'll wait.

 

Bruce Sutter, Rollie Fingers and Satchel Paige.

He did say STARTING pitchers. Sutter had exactly zero major league starts, and Fingers and Paige had few enough starts they weren't considered starting pitchers.

 

Regardless, this was the key part of his response to benchwarmer's asinine thinking:

What any of that has to do with anything is beyond me. When's the last time Zambrano had a losing record? There are 68 pitchers in the hall of fame. 41 have worse winning percentages than Zambrano. 19 have worse winning percentages than Kerry Wood.

 

Thanks for also proving my point. Still waiting for that HOF pitcher list to enlighten me.

[Rob]

What exactly is it that you think this HOF argument proves? That wins matter? Or that they're valued by sportswriters?

 

And how is it proving a point to look at a pitcher nobody is debating was good, only to point at one minor number in their stats and say "this is why they're good"? It only proves that you think that's why they're good.

 

You haven't made a cogent argument yet, but you carry yourself as though you're teaching all us whippersnappers a thing or two about baseball, by golly. It'd be comical if it weren't so sad.

[SCCubbieFAN]

If someone walks into your house and sets your kitchen on fire, then puts it out, are you going to praise them for extinguishing the fire, or are you going to yell at them for setting the fire in the first place?

 

That logic applies here: Hendry made a good move trading Miles and getting some interesting names back in return. However, Miles never should have been here to begin with, especially for that amount of money, so that's what I'm going to focus on.

 

But if your kitchen is repaired and is made better than it was before the fire with stainless steel appliances, granite countertops, and a ceramic tile floor, wouldn't you be better off than you were before the fire? :D

[17 Seconds]

Name 5 HOF starting pitchers who do not have winning records.

 

Go ahead..we'll wait.

 

Bruce Sutter, Rollie Fingers and Satchel Paige.

He did say STARTING pitchers. Sutter had exactly zero major league starts, and Fingers and Paige had few enough starts they weren't considered starting pitchers.

 

Regardless, this was the key part of his response to benchwarmer's asinine thinking:

What any of that has to do with anything is beyond me. When's the last time Zambrano had a losing record? There are 68 pitchers in the hall of fame. 41 have worse winning percentages than Zambrano. 19 have worse winning percentages than Kerry Wood.

 

Thanks for also proving my point. Still waiting for that HOF pitcher list to enlighten me.

 

what are you trying to prove anyways? that really awesome pitchers usually have winning records?

 

your argument is really weird

[Guancous]

I'll bite: http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/08/wins-are-for-losers-part-eleven-million.html

[SouthSideRyan]

Thanks for also proving my point.

 

Wait, so your point all along was that Carlos Zambrano is a hall of fame level pitcher?

[Sammy Sofa]

Thanks for also proving my point. Still waiting for that HOF pitcher list to enlighten me.

 

How did that prove your point? Zambrano has a better winning percentage than 41 of the the 68 pitchers in the HOF. Are you saying that Zambrano is a HOF pitcher?

[Soul]

I like this movie. They look like prospects that have some promise to me.

 

I'm more glad about getting rid of Miles because right now I don't know if Fox or the prospects we got in return will turn out to be the better value.

 

So for now I'm on board with this one. Miles had to go. Miles should never have been here in the first place.

[Benchwarmer]

Thanks for also proving my point. Still waiting for that HOF pitcher list to enlighten me.

 

How did that prove your point? Zambrano has a better winning percentage than 41 of the the 68 pitchers in the HOF. Are you saying that Zambrano is a HOF pitcher?

 

$2 million+ per win in 2009. What a bargain, Hendry. Oh wait..his VORP and WHIP were great. =D> =D>

[inari]

Name 5 HOF starting pitchers who do not have winning records.

 

Go ahead..we'll wait.

 

Bruce Sutter, Rollie Fingers and Satchel Paige.

He did say STARTING pitchers. Sutter had exactly zero major league starts, and Fingers and Paige had few enough starts they weren't considered starting pitchers.

 

Regardless, this was the key part of his response to benchwarmer's asinine thinking:

What any of that has to do with anything is beyond me. When's the last time Zambrano had a losing record? There are 68 pitchers in the hall of fame. 41 have worse winning percentages than Zambrano. 19 have worse winning percentages than Kerry Wood.

 

Thanks for also proving my point. Still waiting for that HOF pitcher list to enlighten me.

 

I am trying so hard to figure out this could conceivably prove your point. It runs completely contrary to your absurd argument and you're embracing it.

[inari]

Thanks for also proving my point. Still waiting for that HOF pitcher list to enlighten me.

 

How did that prove your point? Zambrano has a better winning percentage than 41 of the the 68 pitchers in the HOF. Are you saying that Zambrano is a HOF pitcher?

 

$2 million+ per win in 2009. What a bargain, Hendry. Oh wait..his VORP and WHIP were great. =D> =D>

 

OR

 

I just got my argument destroyed so I'm going to make fun of stats I don't understand!

[woodchip2153]

Thanks for also proving my point. Still waiting for that HOF pitcher list to enlighten me.

 

How did that prove your point? Zambrano has a better winning percentage than 41 of the the 68 pitchers in the HOF. Are you saying that Zambrano is a HOF pitcher?

 

$2 million+ per win in 2009. What a bargain, Hendry. Oh wait..his VORP and WHIP were great. =D> =D>

 

This is funny because teams paid $3.5mil per win last year in free agency, IIRC, so 2mil per win is a bargain.

[SouthSideRyan]

Thanks for also proving my point. Still waiting for that HOF pitcher list to enlighten me.

 

How did that prove your point? Zambrano has a better winning percentage than 41 of the the 68 pitchers in the HOF. Are you saying that Zambrano is a HOF pitcher?

 

$2 million+ per win in 2009. What a bargain, Hendry. Oh wait..his VORP and WHIP were great. =D> =D>

 

But he has a great win-loss record. That's what's important.

[SouthSideRyan]

Can somebody with play index run a most wins from 2003-2009 so I can see where benchwarmer goes from here.

[fromthestretch]

Thanks for also proving my point. Still waiting for that HOF pitcher list to enlighten me.

 

How did that prove your point? Zambrano has a better winning percentage than 41 of the the 68 pitchers in the HOF. Are you saying that Zambrano is a HOF pitcher?

 

$2 million+ per win in 2009. What a bargain, Hendry. Oh wait..his VORP and WHIP were great. =D> =D>

 

If you're going to be close-minded and insist on looking at wins, you should realize that the Cubs were 18-10 in games Zambrano started.

[Sammy Sofa]

Thanks for also proving my point. Still waiting for that HOF pitcher list to enlighten me.

 

How did that prove your point? Zambrano has a better winning percentage than 41 of the the 68 pitchers in the HOF. Are you saying that Zambrano is a HOF pitcher?

 

$2 million+ per win in 2009. What a bargain, Hendry. Oh wait..his VORP and WHIP were great. =D> =D>

 

So you're completely ignoring the point. If you think wins are THE stat to judge a pitcher, then Zambrano is a HOF pitcher.

[inari]

Can somebody with play index run a most wins from 2003-2009 so I can see where benchwarmer goes from here.

 

I'll go ahead and save the drama and say Zambrano is definitely near the top of the list.

[SouthSideRyan]

Carlos Zambrano is 6th in the majors(2nd in the NL) in wins since becoming a full time starter in 2003.

[fromthestretch]

Can somebody with play index run a most wins from 2003-2009 so I can see where benchwarmer goes from here.

 

2003-2009 wins leaders:

 

Halladay 111

Santana 111

Sabathia 106

Oswalt 104

Pettitte 101

Lowe 100

Zambrano 100

Beckett 98

Buehrle 96

Garland 95

Moyer 94

[Sammy Sofa]

Man, the HOF is going to be busting down Garland's door to get him in. Lowe and Moyer, too. ELITE.