No Arby's for Harden, Gregg, Johnson

[davearm2]

harden said that he wanted to stay in chicago, so it is pretty obvious why he wasn't offered arbitration

 

this isn't a mistake

 

he is the canadian version of dice-k...5 inning headache

I'm not going to wade into the 5 inning debate, but I think you're correct that a) Harden would've accepted arbitration, and b) the Cubs didn't offer it for precisely this reason.

[SouthSideRyan]

The guy only started 25 and 26 games last year. So you wanna give him more rest, and pay him 9m plus for what 16-18 starts?

 

Harden started only 25 games in '08 because the Cubs gave him extra rest(like they said they would when they got him) He started 26 games in '09 because he got hurt(while not receiving extra rest)

 

Rich Harden was the 2nd best pitcher in all of baseball after coming to the Cubs in '08(Happy ElCaballo?) and the Cubs are afraid to risk a 1 year/9M investment on him approaching even part of that? 141 innings of above average starting pitching(what he did last year) is probably worth that. If it's not, it's gotta be damn close. You're not going to risk that 1M difference on the chance he at least splits the difference between '08 and '09?

 

The only reason to not offer Harden is a fear of significant DL time, and as most have said, if the Cubs have more knowledge than they've let on about Harden's shoulder, then fine, but if they're pissed that he's not going to complete games, then they're a bunch of idiots.

[erik316wttn]

God dammit. [expletive] you, Hendry. [expletive] you right up the ass you rotten son of a bitch.

 

*sigh* this is why we can't have nice things.

[Tim M]

Harden just isn't an asset at a high salary. He isn't durable enough. I think last year is a pretty good indicator of what Harden will be in the future, assuming his shoulder doesn't implode. I don't think his stuff is quite what it used to be, and it suffers even more when he actually has to pitch every 5 days. I was excited when we got the guy, but Harden is a nice complementary piece if you have a lot of pitching depth. He isn't an ace and doesn't deserve to be paid like one. I hope the Cubs can sign the guy at a reduced salary but for now I think they made the right move.

[SouthSideRyan]

It's like 2008 never happened.

 

You people don't deserve Rich Harden and his sexiness

[erik316wttn]

Harden just isn't an asset at a high salary. He isn't durable enough. I think last year is a pretty good indicator of what Harden will be in the future, assuming his shoulder doesn't implode. I don't think his stuff is quite what it used to be, and it suffers even more when he actually has to pitch every 5 days. I was excited when we got the guy, but Harden is a nice complementary piece if you have a lot of pitching depth. He isn't an ace and doesn't deserve to be paid like one. I hope the Cubs can sign the guy at a reduced salary but for now I think they made the right move.

 

The only problem with this is as of right now, our rotation is Z/Lilly/Dempster/ and 2 of Grabow/Marshall/Wells

 

Do you really want to go to war with that rotation?

 

edit: I meant Gorzellany

Edited December 1, 2009 by erik316wttn

[cubsfan26]

Our rotation is Z/Lilly/Dempster/ and 2 of Grabow/Marshall/Wells

Do you really want to go to war with that rotation?

 

Well Grabow shouldn't be a option in the rotation. You also are forgetting about Gorzelanny and Samardzija. Yes it doesn't seem great on paper. But if there was one thing that fans should give the Cubs a benefit of a doubt about is the starting pitching. Besides 2006 the rotation has been very strong just about every season since 2002. So if they think Zambrano,Lilly, Dempster and two of Wells, Marshall, Samardzija and Gorzelanny and maybe some cheap veteran or guy rehabbing is good enough, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Because like it or not that rotation is talented enough to be good again in 2010 and the Cubs seem to think they are pretty much set there. Who knows but all I know is it's too early in the offseason to worry about what the rotation will be like next season.

Edited December 1, 2009 by cubsfan26

[Tim M]

It's like 2008 never happened.

 

You people don't deserve Rich Harden and his sexiness

 

A lot of people on here seem to forget 2009 ever happened. Harden was the WORST starter on our team and was shut down with shoulder issues at the end of the season. Given the Cubs financial state they couldn't risk paying him 9 or 10 million if he accepted. I'd love the Cubs to have an unlimited budget but they don't and Harden isn't a an asset at that type of salary.

[Sammy Sofa]

That's pretty cheap for a pitcher of that talent.

[Rob]

It's like 2008 never happened.

 

You people don't deserve Rich Harden and his sexiness

 

A lot of people on here seem to forget 2009 ever happened. Harden was the WORST starter on our team and was shut down with shoulder issues at the end of the season. Given the Cubs financial state they couldn't risk paying him 9 or 10 million if he accepted. I'd love the Cubs to have an unlimited budget but they don't and Harden isn't a an asset at that type of salary.

 

Actually, Harden had a lower xFIP than Lilly, Zambrano, Dempster, and Wells. He was our best starter.

[USSoccer]

Apathy is preventing me from reacting beyond saying this is typical Cubs stupidity.

[SouthSideRyan]

It's like 2008 never happened.

 

You people don't deserve Rich Harden and his sexiness

 

A lot of people on here seem to forget 2009 ever happened. Harden was the WORST starter on our team and was shut down with shoulder issues at the end of the season. Given the Cubs financial state they couldn't risk paying him 9 or 10 million if he accepted. I'd love the Cubs to have an unlimited budget but they don't and Harden isn't a an asset at that type of salary.

 

As I said, Harden last year would have been worth a 1/8-9M deal.

[daske17]

Apathy is preventing me from reacting beyond saying this is typical Cubs stupidity.

 

Bingo. As much as I love the Cubs, I can't bring myself to care about this off-season. Even if they had offered arbitration to Harden, he is not the missing piece to this being a WS champ. And that missing piece isn't going to materialize over the off-season either.

[17 Seconds]

Apathy is preventing me from reacting beyond saying this is typical Cubs stupidity.

 

yup

[Shilzzz]

This is serious insanity.

 

Maybe Ricketts doesn't understand arbitration just yet or something, but for all of his talk about wanting to improve the farm system first, why in God's green earth do you not offer? Unless there is already something under the table going on in terms of an incentive laden multi year deal, i just don't get it. I wish i lived in SF so i could watch the Giants more often. Why are we just dumping some of our best players for nothing?

 

JOHN GRABOW JUST GOT A MULTI YEAR DEAL

[MSG T]

He's not a 5 inning pitcher either

 

I know your a fan of Harden and everything. But if 11 of your 26 starts end up lasting 5.1 innings or less you can't say it's not a problem. Especially when during those 11 starts he really only averages 4 innings. In almost half of his starts we need to use your bullpen for 4 or 5 innings, and if you don't have a strong deep pen it kills you.

 

 

Given Harden extra rest and he'll give you 6-7+ innings of very good pitching. And it's easy to give a guy extra rest.

 

The guy only started 25 and 26 games last year. So you wanna give him more rest, and pay him 9m plus for what 16-20 starts?

 

Maybe you don't know this but every team is only allowed 25 players on the roster, no matter who the starting pitcher is. They don't have to pay any extra people just because Harden is here.

 

Come on seriously? Do you really not understand that you have to get better players in those spots because Harden is here? If you have starters that consistently go 6-8 innings, then you can take some chances on young pitchers or being in some scrub veteran and maybe have 2 or 3 dependable guys at the end. But if you got a guy like Harden around you need a extra dependable reliever or two. Because if those guys suck you need to pitch them alot more. Like it or not but there is a domino effect of having a guy like Harden on the pitching staff. The mix of rest he needs and the lack of long outings hurts your team. So you really gotta factor in what Harden brings to the team, the cost money wise for him, and the cost of having more dependable guys around to fill in for him.

 

 

Especially when you are going into the season with 2-3 guys in the bullpen that are very capable of spot starting 5-10 times per year

 

Which is another domino effect of having a guy like Harden around. Those guys could be valueable trade pieces or could be productive starters in the majors and the money used on Harden could go elsewhere. But with Harden around you need to have a few options ready to step in. Very few teams have 2 or 3 guys sitting in there pen who can start for a reason. Look I know Harden stats and I understand why people want him around. But thinking it's a no brainer that we should want Harden back at 1y at 9m or more, if he wants to come back. Isn't looking at the big picture and doesn't factor in all the downfalls of having a guy like Harden around.

 

The problem with your argument is that the Cubs aren't going to replace him with a good starting pitcher. They are replacing him with either someone that's way worse(Edwin Jackson?)or one of those 2-3 guys capable of starting 5-10 games. The choice isn't " do we offer Harden arbitration or do we trade for Halladay (or another top quality starter)". The choice is "do we offer Harden arbitration or put Gorzelanny in the rotation". Which then has the domino effect of weakening the bullpen. By not even taking the chance of keeping Harden, the not only weaken the rotation, but also the bullpen. Gorzelanny is a perfectly acceptable, #3-5 starting pitcher, but he is by no means an effective replacement for Harden.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Depending on how much you like Bill James, there's not much difference going from Harden to Gorzelanny next year. But that's really beside the point.

 

I find it incredibly hard to believe that ALL of the following are true.

 

A) No one is going to offer Harden a multi-year deal or more lucrative 1 year deal (It took about 20 minutes for a very smart franchise to have interest in him)

 

B) Harden would accept arbitration before realizing that no one is going to offer him a multi year deal or more lucrative 1 year deal

 

C) Harden would not be worth his arbitration salary in 2010

 

D) No one would want Harden in trade at his arbitration salary

 

E) No one would want Harden in trade at a little below his arbitration salary(meaning the Cubs paid a couple million for a chance at a high pick plus whatever they get in return for Harden)

[javy knows my name]

Let's all hope Jim doesn't give Geovany Soto any Arby's either :D

[cubsfan26]

The problem with your argument is that the Cubs aren't going to replace him with a good starting pitcher.

 

Well thats my opinion on why I wouldn't want Harden back for 9-10m next year. When you factor in the cost of adding better relievers and having a good starter ready to step in, for a team with not much money to spend. But the real reason why the Cubs didn't offer him arb is because they can't afford him if he did accept it. All the rest of there money is going into fixing the line-up(which is probably less then 8-9m). They can't spend another 9-10m on the rotation, especially when they feel guys like Gorezlanny, Marshall and possibly Samardzija can step in. Sure they might try to bring in someone on the cheap but they won't be spending any real money on starting pitching this offseason IMO. I guess in hindsight we should have traded Harden last season. But we were still deep in the race around the deadline and the only team we could have traded him to in August was the Twins. So if they were offering good prospects and we turned it down then Hendry is an idiot(because we knew the Cubs wouldn't have the money to bring Harden back this offseason). But we don't know what they were offering and if it was crap then there's no reason to give him away. So it sucks too lose him and not get anything in return. But thats baseball and alot of teams had to do simliar things today.

[SouthSideRyan]

Let's all hope Jim doesn't give Geovany Soto any Arby's either :D

 

Missing a few winks.

[NCCubFan]

Let's all hope Jim doesn't give Geovany Soto any Arby's either :D

I'm thinking Arby's. :D

[ELCABALLO45]

The guy only started 25 and 26 games last year. So you wanna give him more rest, and pay him 9m plus for what 16-18 starts?

 

Harden started only 25 games in '08 because the Cubs gave him extra rest(like they said they would when they got him) He started 26 games in '09 because he got hurt(while not receiving extra rest)

 

Rich Harden was the 2nd best pitcher in all of baseball after coming to the Cubs in '08(Happy ElCaballo?) and the Cubs are afraid to risk a 1 year/9M investment on him approaching even part of that? 141 innings of above average starting pitching(what he did last year) is probably worth that. If it's not, it's gotta be damn close. You're not going to risk that 1M difference on the chance he at least splits the difference between '08 and '09?

 

The only reason to not offer Harden is a fear of significant DL time, and as most have said, if the Cubs have more knowledge than they've let on about Harden's shoulder, then fine, but if they're pissed that he's not going to complete games, then they're a bunch of idiots.

 

Haha thanks.

 

And your 100 percent right about this. This would not make sense to me if I was a Cub fan.

[Cubswin11]

We will all forget about this Harden thing once the Peavy trade gets completed at the winter meetings

[Clem Fandango]

The Red Sox are serious about signing free-agent right-hander Rich Harden, according to FOXSports.com.

The Red Sox have been linked to Harden for years now, so this news is unsurprising. The 28-year old tossed 141 innings with a 4.06 ERA this season while whiffing 10.9 batters, down from 2008's 2.07 ERA and 11.01 K/9. The level of interest in the right-hander thus far may net him a multi-year deal, and it boosts his value that no draft picks will be lost from the signing club. Boston is seeking an impact pitcher that might allow the club to dangle Clay Buchholz in trade talks.

[Wheelimus]

My first inclination is to bitch about them not offering Harden arbitration...but I'm willing to wait and see what happens. I have a sneaking suspicion that Free Agent prices are going to drop even lower than last year, and teams with money left to spend in February or so are going to make out like bandits. Strangely enough, Jimbo obsessing on unloading Bradley might wind up setting us up for a steal or two. Heh, at least I can dream...