Delmon Young

[TruffleShuffle]

I guess I should've put the greene part in green. Because I know Greene sucks worse than theriot despite what some other posters have claimed in the past.

 

But lets look at the real contenders. NYY, BOS, PHI, STL, and LAD

 

All those teams have holes but they also have guys that are the best in baseball to hide guys like Brett Garnder, Khalil Greene/Brendan Ryan, or Carlos Ruiz. The cubs are closer to the rays where in everything has to go right to be successful. Because they have no one like Arod, Manny or Utley. The closest they have to that is Ramirez. And even then he's probably a tier lower than Arod and Wright.

 

who does boston have that's arod, manny or utley?

[Backtobanks]

I guess I should've put the greene part in green. Because I know Greene sucks worse than theriot despite what some other posters have claimed in the past.

 

But lets look at the real contenders. NYY, BOS, PHI, STL, and LAD

 

All those teams have holes but they also have guys that are the best in baseball to hide guys like Brett Garnder, Khalil Greene/Brendan Ryan, or Carlos Ruiz. The cubs are closer to the rays where in everything has to go right to be successful. Because they have no one like Arod, Manny or Utley. The closest they have to that is Ramirez. And even then he's probably a tier lower than Arod and Wright.

 

When the Cubs have their regular lineup healthy (which hasn't been often in the past year), you can't tell me that Aram, DLee, Soriano, Bradley, and Soto (circa 2008) can't support a .290 singles hitter in the lineup.

[SouthSideRyan]

I guess I should've put the greene part in green. Because I know Greene sucks worse than theriot despite what some other posters have claimed in the past.

 

But lets look at the real contenders. NYY, BOS, PHI, STL, and LAD

 

All those teams have holes but they also have guys that are the best in baseball to hide guys like Brett Garnder, Khalil Greene/Brendan Ryan, or Carlos Ruiz. The cubs are closer to the rays where in everything has to go right to be successful. Because they have no one like Arod, Manny or Utley. The closest they have to that is Ramirez. And even then he's probably a tier lower than Arod and Wright.

 

When the Cubs have their regular lineup healthy (which hasn't been often in the past year), you can't tell me that Aram, DLee, Soriano, Bradley, and Soto (circa 2008) can't support a .290 singles hitter in the lineup.

 

Were you in favor of keeping Shawn Estes around in '03?

[Little Slide Rooter]

I guess I should've put the greene part in green. Because I know Greene sucks worse than theriot despite what some other posters have claimed in the past.

 

But lets look at the real contenders. NYY, BOS, PHI, STL, and LAD

 

All those teams have holes but they also have guys that are the best in baseball to hide guys like Brett Garnder, Khalil Greene/Brendan Ryan, or Carlos Ruiz. The cubs are closer to the rays where in everything has to go right to be successful. Because they have no one like Arod, Manny or Utley. The closest they have to that is Ramirez. And even then he's probably a tier lower than Arod and Wright.

 

When the Cubs have their regular lineup healthy (which hasn't been often in the past year), you can't tell me that Aram, DLee, Soriano, Bradley, and Soto (circa 2008) can't support a .290 singles hitter in the lineup.

 

I agree with the above. Some feel that every guy in the lineup has to be a OPSing in the mid .800s, but having those singles hitters is good to set the tables. Theriot is right on par with the avg. offensive numbers for MLB shortstops, and take out a few guys like Han Ram and Jimmy Rollins from that mix, and Theriot may be above the average

[SouthSideRyan]

...and take out a few guys like Han Ram and Jimmy Rollins from that mix, and Theriot may be above the average

 

la

[jersey cubs fan]

I guess I should've put the greene part in green. Because I know Greene sucks worse than theriot despite what some other posters have claimed in the past.

 

But lets look at the real contenders. NYY, BOS, PHI, STL, and LAD

 

All those teams have holes but they also have guys that are the best in baseball to hide guys like Brett Garnder, Khalil Greene/Brendan Ryan, or Carlos Ruiz. The cubs are closer to the rays where in everything has to go right to be successful. Because they have no one like Arod, Manny or Utley. The closest they have to that is Ramirez. And even then he's probably a tier lower than Arod and Wright.

 

When the Cubs have their regular lineup healthy (which hasn't been often in the past year), you can't tell me that Aram, DLee, Soriano, Bradley, and Soto (circa 2008) can't support a .290 singles hitter in the lineup.

 

Sure when they have a bunch of guys in their 30's with various degrees of reoccuring/lingering injury issues plus a catcher with one good year under his belt all at their best, they can hide Theriot.

 

I don't know why you'd assume all those guys would be healthy and at their best next season though.

 

That of course just emphasizes the point that the guy needs to be hidden because he's not good, he's also aging, and if this team wants to get better they should look long and hard at replacing him.

[SouthSideRyan]

That of course just emphasizes the point that the guy needs to be hidden because he's not good, he's also aging, and if this team wants to get better they should look long and hard at replacing him.

 

And he's about to become more expensive.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I guess I should've put the greene part in green. Because I know Greene sucks worse than theriot despite what some other posters have claimed in the past.

 

But lets look at the real contenders. NYY, BOS, PHI, STL, and LAD

 

All those teams have holes but they also have guys that are the best in baseball to hide guys like Brett Garnder, Khalil Greene/Brendan Ryan, or Carlos Ruiz. The cubs are closer to the rays where in everything has to go right to be successful. Because they have no one like Arod, Manny or Utley. The closest they have to that is Ramirez. And even then he's probably a tier lower than Arod and Wright.

 

When the Cubs have their regular lineup healthy (which hasn't been often in the past year), you can't tell me that Aram, DLee, Soriano, Bradley, and Soto (circa 2008) can't support a .290 singles hitter in the lineup.

 

Sure when they have a bunch of guys in their 30's with various degrees of reoccuring/lingering injury issues plus a catcher with one good year under his belt all at their best, they can hide Theriot.

 

I don't know why you'd assume all those guys would be healthy and at their best next season though.

 

That of course just emphasizes the point that the guy needs to be hidden because he's not good, he's also aging, and if this team wants to get better they should look long and hard at replacing him.

 

a .290 hitter doesnt need to be hidden. A guy like Theriot should be your number 2 hitter behind a solid leadoff guy. Guys like Aaron Miles and Bobby Scales need to be hidden when in a lineup. Guys like Theriot should be setting the table for the big boys.

[Rob]

Theriot has a .337 OBP this season. He's got zero business at the top of the lineup the way his walk rate has degraded.

[soapy]

I'm sorry, but why are some people assuming that a group of 30+ year olds (some with huge injury concerns, and some with regression concerns) are all of the sudden going to stay healthy and productive next year?

 

I really don't understand why people are going out of their way to defend a guy who is below-average to average at his position, about to be 30, has a pathetic OBP (particularly for someone with no power) and is about to be due a pay raise.

 

I don't have a problem with Theriot, per se, but I don't see any reason at all why they Cubs shouldn't look to upgrade if they can reasonably do so.

[CUBZ99]

I'm sorry, but why are some people assuming that a group of 30+ year olds (some with huge injury concerns, and some with regression concerns) are all of the sudden going to stay healthy and productive next year?

 

I really don't understand why people are going out of their way to defend a guy who is below-average to average at his position, about to be 30, has a pathetic OBP (particularly for someone with no power) and is about to be due a pay raise.

 

I don't have a problem with Theriot, per se, but I don't see any reason at all why they Cubs shouldn't look to upgrade if they can reasonably do so.

 

Theriot will still be relatively cheap, and with Castro performing as well as he is, I'm not sure spending a lot of money on a SS would be the best option.

[Halman]

take out a few guys like Han Ram and Jimmy Rollins from that mix, and Theriot may be above the average

 

Take Arod and David Wright away and Aramis Ramirez is arguably the best 3B in baseball.

 

Take Beltran, Kemp, Sizemore and Granderson away Fukudome is the best CF in baseball.

[illiniguy]

take out a few guys like Han Ram and Jimmy Rollins from that mix, and Theriot may be above the average

 

Take Arod and David Wright away and Aramis Ramirez is arguably the best 3B in baseball.

 

Take Beltran, Kemp, Sizemore and Granderson away Fukudome is the best CF in baseball.

Take away the Cards and we are going to the playoffs again...

[ISUCubsFan]

Theriot isn't great obviously, but I don't think the Cubs need to waste resources to get him out of the lineup. A league average SS for what Theriot will be making next year isn't a bad thing, and for all the crap he gets about his defense, he's 8th among qualified SS in UZR/150. To upgrade, just find the best middle infielder available and put Theriot at the other position. I'd agree he needs to bat 7th or 8th though. As for Delmon Young, no thanks.

[jersey cubs fan]

Theriot isn't great obviously, but I don't think the Cubs need to waste resources to get him out of the lineup. A league average SS for what Theriot will be making next year isn't a bad thing, and for all the crap he gets about his defense, he's 8th among qualified SS in UZR/150. To upgrade, just find the best middle infielder available and put Theriot at the other position. I'd agree he needs to bat 7th or 8th though. As for Delmon Young, no thanks.

 

If he was a good defender, I'd be okay with his lack of productivity. But this remains a very expensive ballclub with far too many shortcomings, and they need all the help they can get.

[DiamondMind]

still totally confused why people are looking at SS for replacements

 

the one guy that doesnt have an albatross contract, is consistent, and doesnt have an injury record....and you want to get rid of him

 

and please spare me the range comments, we already know

[Backtobanks]

still totally confused why people are looking at SS for replacements

 

the one guy that doesnt have an albatross contract, is consistent, and doesnt have an injury record....and you want to get rid of him

 

 

 

 

He's the latest in "Pick the one player to blame for 2009" contest. As I've stated before, he's nowhere near the biggest problem on the Cubs. Some of the suggestions of Lilly, Theriot, plus 2-3 prospects for Reyes are ridiculous. Theriot plus 1-2 prospects for Reyes is reasonable, but adding our most consistent pitcher is incredible.

[DiamondMind]

He's the latest in "Pick the one player to blame for 2009" contest. As I've stated before, he's nowhere near the biggest problem on the Cubs. Some of the suggestions of Lilly, Theriot, plus 2-3 prospects for Reyes are ridiculous. Theriot plus 1-2 prospects for Reyes is reasonable, but adding our most consistent pitcher is incredible.

 

Yea I mean don't get me wrong, I don't think Theriot is an exceptional SS or anything....but why people are looking at him to upgrade is just baffling to me. I understand there's (very) limited positions to look to upgrade at, but that doesn't mean you diminish the value of Theriot in the process. I'd rather the Cubs focus on getting people HEALTHY, and if you trade anyone for anything, it's for pitching.

 

And whoever recommended trading Lilly and Theriot as a package is freaking insane. If you look up lack of consistency in the dictionary, there's the 2009 cubs. And you want to trade our two most consistent players? Including our most consistent pitcher!? ughhhhhhh

[SouthSideRyan]

How exactly is Ryan Theriot consistent??

 

And if we trade for anything we should trade for pitching?? WHAT PITCHING? PITCHING'S THE ONLY THING KEEPING THIS TEAM FROM BEING AWFUL

[DiamondMind]

How exactly is Ryan Theriot consistent??

 

And if we trade for anything we should trade for pitching?? WHAT PITCHING? PITCHING'S THE ONLY THING KEEPING THIS TEAM FROM BEING AWFUL

 

I don't understand why you're asking how he's consistent. He's healthy. I'm not saying he's good, I'm saying you can easily guess what you're going to get out of him next year. Can you say that for Soto, Soriano, Bradley, hell, the entire offense? I just leave him alone. He's not the problem with the team.

 

And you're really going to try and tell me the bullpen couldn't use some help? What do you expect from Dempster and Z next year? Do you trust Harden? Is he even a Cub next year? Do you think Wells can match his success from this year? Is it even possible to have too much pitching?

 

And why are you so angry?

[Rob]

Here's a simple fact. We don't have many places we can upgrade. Lee, Ramirez, and Fukudome can't really be upgraded. Soriano's contract can't be moved and Cubs brass wont be willing to bench him. That leaves us with C, 2B, SS, and RF we can conceivably look at on offense.

 

Bradley has been a bit of a disappointment, but he's been worth just a tiny bit less than we've paid him this year and he stands an excellent chance to rebound in the power department next season. But because of his personality issues, we'd haveto take on his contract in order to move him, and then we'd have to pay market value for a new OF (either in terms of money or prospects). That kind of inefficiency is stupid... akin to how everybody complains about Hendry giving guys like Neifi and Miles multimillion dollar deals over a couple years to ride the pine. Upgrading in RF should be near the very bottom of our priorities.

 

Soto was the victim of some atrocious luck this year... and to top it off, the gems of the FA class are Ramon Hernandez, Bengie Molina, Jason Varitek, and Greg Zaun. Bring one of em in on the cheap to backup Soto? Sure. Count on any of these guys to be a starter? Hell no. We can't really upgrade at C.

 

The middle infield is where we have options... and where there are some nice players on the market. Mark DeRosa, Chone Figgins, Orlando Hudson, Akinori Iwamura, Felipe Lopez, Marco Scutaro, and Miguel Tejada are available in FA. Speculation has Jose Reyes available on the trade market as well as JJ Hardy, Christian Guzman, Luis Castillo, and even possibly Stephen Drew.

 

It's possible to upgrade over our league average SS and our 2B platoon that's light on OBP and defense but carries a bit of pop in their bats. That's why people are looking at Theriot. He's one of two spots we can conceivably upgrade at.

[muntjack]

I won't be surprised at all if Hendry goes after Dan Uggla. The Marlins have Cris Cophlan ready to take over at 2nd and the team seemed to back up Hanley when Uggla called him out. That fills the hole at 2nd and gives Lou his "#5 hitter" He is a righty, though....

[SouthSideRyan]

How exactly is Ryan Theriot consistent??

 

And if we trade for anything we should trade for pitching?? WHAT PITCHING? PITCHING'S THE ONLY THING KEEPING THIS TEAM FROM BEING AWFUL

 

I don't understand why you're asking how he's consistent. He's healthy. I'm not saying he's good, I'm saying you can easily guess what you're going to get out of him next year. Can you say that for Soto, Soriano, Bradley, hell, the entire offense? I just leave him alone. He's not the problem with the team.

 

And you're really going to try and tell me the bullpen couldn't use some help? What do you expect from Dempster and Z next year? Do you trust Harden? Is he even a Cub next year? Do you think Wells can match his success from this year? Is it even possible to have too much pitching?

 

Theriot's OBP has gone from 326 to 387 to 336 the past 3 years. This year he's hit for more power, walked a hell of a lot less, and struck out more than last season. I have no idea what in his #s(besides awful slugging) is consistent.

 

The only money the Cubs should spend on pitching is re-signing Rich Harden. The Cubs pen was average this year. With re-signing Harden you have Gorz, Marshall, Marmol, and Gooz in the pen. We're overloaded with major league ready pen arms in the minors. Spending money on middle relief-setup men is probably the worst way to spend money for any team, let alone one with a system full of these guys.

[imb]

How exactly is Ryan Theriot consistent??

 

And if we trade for anything we should trade for pitching?? WHAT PITCHING? PITCHING'S THE ONLY THING KEEPING THIS TEAM FROM BEING AWFUL

 

I don't understand why you're asking how he's consistent. He's healthy. I'm not saying he's good, I'm saying you can easily guess what you're going to get out of him next year. Can you say that for Soto, Soriano, Bradley, hell, the entire offense? I just leave him alone. He's not the problem with the team.

 

And you're really going to try and tell me the bullpen couldn't use some help? What do you expect from Dempster and Z next year? Do you trust Harden? Is he even a Cub next year? Do you think Wells can match his success from this year? Is it even possible to have too much pitching?

 

And why are you so angry?

 

have you even paid attention to this team at all this year?

[fromthestretch]

We are one "consistent" away from this thread becoming a JoeChat.