Ortiz on the juice?

[Clem Fandango]

I didn't catch it in the article, did it say what exactly he tested positive for?

[NewUserName]

Oh how the artifically mighty have fallen - like a two ton balloon.

 

Hope it was worth it - you cheating slimebags.

 

 

I dont think this issue will ever be resolved until we realize that these are human beings with problems and not idols to our imagined perfection.

[ISUCubsFan]

So that's what they meant by "Cowboy Up".

 

Really though, who thought it was a good idea to have an anonymous test but to keep the names on a secret list somewhere? Is it that hard to label the sample "Player No. ###" and be done with it?

[DanzaSlap]

If I were the players who agreed to the testing in 2003, I'd be filing a lawsuit against the MLB Players Union for not doing their job in making sure these results and samples were destroyed. Somebody really screwed the pooch on this one.

[Clem Fandango]

The obligiatory "Jose Canseco was right" article following an outed user...

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4367025

 

In all seriousness though, these outed players keep making him look like a genius in the eyes of the media

[Rusch33]

Canseco is saying a HOF was using.. which isn't surprising.

 

I wonder who that could be.

[SouthSideRyan]

Canseco is saying a HOF was using.. which isn't surprising.

 

I wonder who that could be.

 

I hope it was Jim Rice.

[illiniguy]

Canseco is saying a HOF was using.. which isn't surprising.

 

I wonder who that could be.

He played with Rickey.

[imb]

Canseco is saying a HOF was using.. which isn't surprising.

 

I wonder who that could be.

He played with Rickey.

 

that would make a lot of sense

[Sammy Sofa]

Canseco is saying a HOF was using.. which isn't surprising.

 

I wonder who that could be.

 

Hank Aaron.

 

I like how this thing is being approached like there's only one steroid/PED-user in the HoF at this point.

[Sammy Sofa]

Oh how the artifically mighty have fallen - like a two ton balloon.

 

Hope it was worth it - you cheating slimebags.

 

You're so silly.

[SouthSideRyan]

Canseco is saying a HOF was using.. which isn't surprising.

 

I wonder who that could be.

 

Hank Aaron.

 

I like how this thing is being approached like there's only one steroid/PED-user in the HoF at this point.

 

Oh [expletive], can I change my answer to that?

[Soul]

Anyone else getting the feeling that the entire list is already known, but the names are being dribbled out piece-meal?

 

Because let's face it, if all the names come out at once, the story blows up and fizzles out after a week or two. This way it drags out over months, even years. Need a little ratings boost? Need to sell a few more papers this month? Dribble out a couple more names.

[DanzaSlap]

Bill Mazeroski. Gotta be.

 

And I think it's funny that some people will freak out that we have (at least) one steroid user in the Hall of Fame, but don't bat at an eye that we have two confirmed virulent racists (Ty Cobb and Enos Slaughter). Some people should get their priorities straight.

[OleMissCub]

And I think it's funny that some people will freak out that we have (at least) one steroid user in the Hall of Fame, but don't bat at an eye that we have two confirmed virulent racists (Ty Cobb and Enos Slaughter). Some people should get their priorities straight.

 

Priorities? It's the BASEBALL Hall of Fame. Being a womanizer, a racist, a drunk, or having various other behavioral issues doesn't have any effect on what happens between the lines. If not being a douche was a prerequisite to getting into the HOF, you'd have about 20 guys in there.

[Jehrico]

I didn't catch it in the article, did it say what exactly he tested positive for?

This is my big problem with the list from 2003. What all exactly did they test for? Did some of these guys turn up hot for using the same junk that got JC Romero busted when neither MLB nor the players union were warning players about those supplements? I think it's a damned valid question, and it should be answered before this witch hunt is allowed to continue.

[XZero771679666304]

And I think it's funny that some people will freak out that we have (at least) one steroid user in the Hall of Fame, but don't bat at an eye that we have two confirmed virulent racists (Ty Cobb and Enos Slaughter). Some people should get their priorities straight.

 

Priorities? It's the BASEBALL Hall of Fame. Being a womanizer, a racist, a drunk, or having various other behavioral issues doesn't have any effect on what happens between the lines. If not being a douche was a prerequisite to getting into the HOF, you'd have about 20 guys in there.

 

 

Well, I think it could be argued that scum like Cobb, Slaughter and others being so influential within the game probably had a direct impact on the exclusion of blacks from the game for so long. And being the case, it would have had an effect on what happened between the lines.

 

And unintentionally would have helped themselves by promoting an all-white league, which would have kept the talent pool relatively shallow. Of course that isn't a direct (or even intentional) form of cheating like juicing, but if we're going to condemn players for taking part in an institutional problem like PED abuse, let's apply that logic to the institutional problem that was the racism of MLB.

 

Furthermore, if we're going to celebrate the accomplishments of men like Jackie Robinson, let's condemn the actions of the men who made it so difficult for them. I mean, fair's fair.

 

And guys like Cobb weren't simply douchebags, but pimples on humanity's collective arse.

[A-Cal]

Do you think this slightly tarnishes the Red Sox World Series Championships?

[Jehrico]

And I think it's funny that some people will freak out that we have (at least) one steroid user in the Hall of Fame, but don't bat at an eye that we have two confirmed virulent racists (Ty Cobb and Enos Slaughter). Some people should get their priorities straight.

 

Priorities? It's the BASEBALL Hall of Fame. Being a womanizer, a racist, a drunk, or having various other behavioral issues doesn't have any effect on what happens between the lines. If not being a douche was a prerequisite to getting into the HOF, you'd have about 20 guys in there.

 

 

Well, I think it could be argued that scum like Cobb, Slaughter and others being so influential within the game probably had a direct impact on the exclusion of blacks from the game for so long. And being the case, it would have had an effect on what happened between the lines.

 

And unintentionally would have helped themselves by promoting an all-white league, which would have kept the talent pool relatively shallow. Of course that isn't a direct (or even intentional) form of cheating like juicing, but if we're going to condemn players for taking part in an institutional problem like PED abuse, let's apply that logic to the institutional problem that was the racism of MLB.

 

Furthermore, if we're going to celebrate the accomplishments of men like Jackie Robinson, let's condemn the actions of the men who made it so difficult for them. I mean, fair's fair.

 

And guys like Cobb weren't simply douchebags, but pimples on humanity's collective arse.

Great post. That's an interesting way of looking at it.

[OleMissCub]

Well, I think it could be argued that scum like Cobb, Slaughter and others being so influential within the game probably had a direct impact on the exclusion of blacks from the game for so long. And being the case, it would have had an effect on what happened between the lines..

 

It shows a real ignorance of baseball history if you think that someone like Cobb had anything to do with continued segregation in the game. Cobb, for all his bigotry off the field, actually tried to get a negro league catcher that he liked onto the Tigers by trying to disguise him as a Cuban. He wanted to win and that's all he cared about on the field. He also used to go to Detroit Stars games all the time and hang out in the dugout to see what he could learn from them.

 

Direct those complaints toward Cap Anson (who set the segregation precedent) and Judge Landis (who continued the segregation) and you'd have a valid argument that I might agree with.

 

 

 

and yes i'm talking about ty cobb again, har har, hee hee

[XZero771679666304]

Well, I think it could be argued that scum like Cobb, Slaughter and others being so influential within the game probably had a direct impact on the exclusion of blacks from the game for so long. And being the case, it would have had an effect on what happened between the lines..

 

It shows a real ignorance of baseball history if you think that someone like Cobb had anything to do with continued segregation in the game. Cobb, for all his bigotry off the field, actually tried to get a negro league catcher that he liked onto the Tigers by trying to disguise him as a Cuban. He wanted to win and that's all he cared about on the field. He also used to go to Detroit Stars games all the time and hang out in the dugout to see what he could learn from them.

 

Direct those complaints toward Cap Anson (who set the segregation precedent) and Judge Landis (who continued the segregation) and you'd have a valid argument that I might agree with.

 

 

 

and yes i'm talking about ty cobb again, har har, hee hee

 

 

I wasn't singling Cobb out, and it shows real ignorance in general to think a virulently racist man would keep his hate separate from his profession. I'm sure you can excavate a few obscure anecdotes to try and prove the contrary, but Cobb and his ilk (of which Cap Anson and Kennesaw Mountain Landis were prime figures) are one of the major reasons for segregation. It's one thing to want a use someone (or someones), but it is entirely another to allow them equal footing and equal share. If there is one thing that is certain, it is that the establishment, influential players and executives alike, did not want a fully integrated MLB.

 

But my argument was a more general one, and my point was that all this hand wringing over PED use from "purists" with a blinding sense of nostalgia is hypocritical at best, seeing as their heroes padded their HOF stats in a time where competition was at a much lower level and the game was rife with injustice.

 

And we can dispense with the notion that only on-field performance is the true measure of a HOF, since the writers (and in particular the veterans committee) have proven time and again that they are an irrational and fickle bunch. That's not even touching the fact that there are HOF'ers that would never have been selected on the basis of their performance, but were on their reputations.

 

The baseball HOF is hardly a paragon of integrity, yet there are no shortage of those feigning baseball piety who want to be the new gatekeepers.

 

And have no delusions - there will be several PED users who make it - we just won't know. Hell, there already may be. The real injustice is that those who may be more deserving will be excluded because of selective leaks.

Edited July 31, 2009 by XZero77

[J.R.]

Do you think this slightly tarnishes the Red Sox World Series Championships?

 

Not at all.

[Clem Fandango]

Canseco is saying a HOF was using.. which isn't surprising.

 

I wonder who that could be.

He played with Rickey.

 

And Rickey's last year in the league was 2003... could he have been juicing then and be one of the people on that list? If he was juicing at 44 years old he's a moron

[DanzaSlap]

How did Enos Slaughter react when the National League allowed Jackie Robinson? And, regarding Cobb, sure, he may have liked that guy and tried to get him onto the Tigers. Slaveholders loved their slaves, too, so long as they knew their place. I'm sure Cobb was the same way -- so long as that catcher didn't overstep his bounds, I'm sure Cobb would have been fine. Had that same catcher tried to date Cobb's daughter, well... "Integration" and "equality" are two totally different things, and just because you advocate one doesn't necessarily mean you advocate the other.

 

And, because part of the BASEBALL Hall of Fame's requirements are character issues, I think a racist attitude would preclude someone from induction (or, at least, it should, especially if we're going to keep people out because of the character issues involved with steroids).

 

And, yeah, I pretty much totally agree with XZero on everything else.

[OleMissCub]

How did Enos Slaughter react when the National League allowed Jackie Robinson?

 

I haven't defended Slaughter and wouldn't on this issue. What he did actually effected what happened on the field.

 

And, because part of the BASEBALL Hall of Fame's requirements are character issues, I think a racist attitude would preclude someone from induction (or, at least, it should, especially if we're going to keep people out because of the character issues involved with steroids).

 

I'm pretty sure most all the guys in the HOF who played before 1950 would be considered flaming bigots today. Kick them all out.