Kevin Gregg is a sham closer

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't like Soriano. I am happy when he's productive and don't root against him. I hate seeing him flail away at that slider away. Why does anyone throw him anything else?

 

Why is it wrong to hate good players? Any fool can hate bad players like Neifi Perez. It takes imagination to hate players that don't suck.

 

I've always disliked Soriano's game. He's got all the talent in the world but does not take full advantage of it. His approach was fun to laugh at while he was a Yankee, but it drives me nuts while he's a Cub.

[SouthSideRyan]

It seems the hatred for Soriano is because he doesn't have plate discipline?

 

Do you guys hate Vlad?

[David]

Vlad hits for a much higher average, though, and has consistently shown an ability to do so, so his OBP's are still respectable to very good.

 

He's like Aramis pre-2008 with a lot more power. He's a free swinger but he tends to make (good) contact.

Edited April 14, 2009 by David

[imb]

It seems the hatred for Soriano is because he doesn't have plate discipline?

 

Do you guys hate Vlad?

 

but vlad's lack of plate discipline led to a .315+ average for 9 out of 10 years, and with his lack of Ks, he never looked as inept as Soriano does at times. You're talking about a guy who posted four .400+ OBP seasons.

 

And Soriano is my favorite player on the team.

[Tracer Bullet]

Vlad hits for a much higher average, though, and has consistently shown an ability to do so, so his OBP's are still respectable to very good.

 

it may be myth, but Vlad seems to hit any ball that's within 3' of the plate and hit it hard.

 

I don't really hate either player though. I hate Soriano's contract.

[jersey cubs fan]

It seems the hatred for Soriano is because he doesn't have plate discipline?

 

Do you guys hate Vlad?

 

Soriano has been a Yankee and a Cub, so I've seen him a lot. I don't even know where Vladdy plays. But he's done better with his tools than Soriano has. He has a career .389 OBP and 147 OPS+, and has been very productive in pretty much every season he's played. Soriano is .329, 117 and has had a few disappointing seasons. They aren't the same player.

[David]

It seems the hatred for Soriano is because he doesn't have plate discipline?

 

Do you guys hate Vlad?

 

Soriano has been a Yankee and a Cub, so I've seen him a lot. I don't even know where Vladdy plays. But he's done better with his tools than Soriano has. He has a career .389 OBP and 147 OPS+, and has been very productive in pretty much every season he's played. Soriano is .329, 117 and has had a few disappointing seasons. They aren't the same player.

 

 

wat?

[David]

i'm guessing it was just a figure of speech.

[SouthSideRyan]

Really? You don't know where Vladimir Guerrero plays baseball?

 

The reason I brought up Vlad is that he has the strike zone management of Randall Simon, which I assumed was the basis of your hatred for Soriano. How do you know that Soriano can do better with his tools? How often do guys learn command of the strike zone on the major league level?

[David]

Really? You don't know where Vladimir Guerrero plays baseball?

 

The reason I brought up Vlad is that he has the strike zone management of Randall Simon, which I assumed was the basis of your hatred for Soriano. How do you know that Soriano can do better with his tools? How often do guys learn command of the strike zone on the major league level?

 

 

Maybe the fact that Cubs fans witnessed Sosa do it makes them think it's easier than it really is? :confused:

 

 

Then again, I bet there are a ton of fans who never even noticed Sosa's incredibly improved approach and only noticed the HRs (obviously, I'm not suggesting that goony is one of them).

[jersey cubs fan]

Really? You don't know where Vladimir Guerrero plays baseball?

 

The reason I brought up Vlad is that he has the strike zone management of Randall Simon, which I assumed was the basis of your hatred for Soriano. How do you know that Soriano can do better with his tools? How often do guys learn command of the strike zone on the major league level?

 

I was exaggerating while making the point that I dont' really watch Vlad much, but I've seen Soriano on a regular basis throughout his career due to location.

 

Vladdy makes it work much better than Soriano has. Vladdy walks 60ish times a year, and often strikes out less than he walks. Soriano is applauded when he reaches 40 walks. I don't know that he can do better, but I'm going to assume he could have because it's ridiculous to assume he could not. There's no reason why a player can't learn plate discipline. At this stage of the game, no, but over the first 10 years of his professional career, why not? He's got loads of talent, but gets himself out far too often and doesn't take what pitchers give him.

[SouthSideRyan]

So you think all toolsy prospects have the ability to gain plate discipline if they just worked at it?

[Guest]

So you think all toolsy prospects have the ability to gain plate discipline if they just worked at it?

He might not but I do. It's a skill, not a genetic trait like hair color.

[Tracer Bullet]

So you think all toolsy prospects have the ability to gain plate discipline if they just worked at it?

 

by gain, do you mean improve plate discipline? I certainly think players below a certain level of discipline can improve upon it. Whether the can go from "bad" to "good" (whatever those terms mean) I don't know. But I think Soriano could have improved his plate discipline when he was younger.

[abuck1220]

I don't like Soriano. I am happy when he's productive and don't root against him. I hate seeing him flail away at that slider away. Why does anyone throw him anything else?

 

people make this argument all the time, and it's obvious that either a) it's not as easy as you think to throw certain pitches in certain spots all the time or b) he truly doesn't flail at every slider away. otherwise he'd be ryan harvey and not a borderline HOFer.

[jersey cubs fan]

So you think all toolsy prospects have the ability to gain plate discipline if they just worked at it?

 

All toolsy prospects with the actual ability to advance in the game of baseball have the ability to improve their plate discipline with work.

 

There's a lot of toolsy SOB's who are worthless. Soriano's toolsiness was special, and there was no question in my mind he could have developed a better approach.

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't like Soriano. I am happy when he's productive and don't root against him. I hate seeing him flail away at that slider away. Why does anyone throw him anything else?

 

people make this argument all the time, and it's obvious that either a) it's not as easy as you think to throw certain pitches in certain spots all the time or b) he truly doesn't flail at every slider away. otherwise he'd be ryan harvey and not a borderline HOFer.

 

Or C, professional baseball pitchers are cocky sons of bitches that think they can get anybody with their heat and don't need to [expletive] foot around with nothing but breaking balls.

[David]

So you think all toolsy prospects have the ability to gain plate discipline if they just worked at it?

He might not but I do. It's a skill, not a genetic trait like hair color.

 

 

The type of vision it requires is most certainly genetic. Not as significant, but a patient mindset itself is probably somewhat impacted by genes as well.

Edited April 14, 2009 by David

[David]

And I'm not arguing that the guys who aren't as good at it can't improve. Obviously, it's a case by case type of thing, but to say that plate discipline isn't in large part based in natural ability is ludicrous, IMO.

[Guest]

And I'm not arguing that the guys who aren't as good at it can't improve. Obviously, it's a case by case type of thing, but to say that plate discipline isn't in large part based in natural ability is ludicrous, IMO.

Ludicrous must be another word for I have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

If it's a case by case type of thing it can't be based on natural ability unless the natural ability is the ability to overcome genetics which goes against your first point.

 

People can be trained to recognize pitches and they can be trained to not swing at certain pitches

 

http://bmo.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/2/1/25

 

Kids with ADHD can learn to wait.

 

Neef, Bicard, & Endo, 2001

[David]

You're right. What was I thinking? Natural ability and what essentially amounts to superhuman eyesight has nothing to do with pitch recognition and anybody can be trained to read major league pitches.

 

Nobody is predisposed to doing it far more easily, right? I'm an idiot.

[Electron Blue]

Kevin Gregg is a sham closer.

[jersey cubs fan]

You're right. What was I thinking? Natural ability and what essentially amounts to superhuman eyesight has nothing to do with pitch recognition and anybody can be trained to read major league pitches.

 

Nobody is predisposed to doing it far more easily, right? I'm an idiot.

 

But if your eyesight is good enough to make it possible for you to hit at the major league level, it's good enough to allow you to be able to layoff balls.

[Guest]

You're right. What was I thinking? Natural ability and what essentially amounts to superhuman eyesight has nothing to do with pitch recognition and anybody can be trained to read major league pitches.

 

Nobody is predisposed to doing it far more easily, right? I'm an idiot.

You wrote it.

 

Superhuman eye sight is not a defining quality of MLB players. Lots of them have to have lassic surgery or were contact or glasses. Not everybody can be trained to read pitches but baseball players can. The extent to which they can be trained do it is probably not limited by their genetic capacity.

[David]

You're right. What was I thinking? Natural ability and what essentially amounts to superhuman eyesight has nothing to do with pitch recognition and anybody can be trained to read major league pitches.

 

Nobody is predisposed to doing it far more easily, right? I'm an idiot.

 

But if your eyesight is good enough to make it possible for you to hit at the major league level, it's good enough to allow you to be able to layoff balls.

 

 

It may or may not be... marginal differences at that level are huge. In the big picture, in the most general sense possible, Alfonso Soriano is only a little bit better than, say, Felix Pie at baseball, but it obviously makes a huge difference in the game.