Kevin Gregg is a sham closer

[David]

You're right. What was I thinking? Natural ability and what essentially amounts to superhuman eyesight has nothing to do with pitch recognition and anybody can be trained to read major league pitches.

 

Nobody is predisposed to doing it far more easily, right? I'm an idiot.

You wrote it.

 

Superhuman eye sight is not a defining quality of MLB players. Lots of them have to have lassic surgery or were contact or glasses. Not everybody can be trained to read pitches but baseball players can. The extent to which they can be trained do it is probably not limited by their genetic capacity.

 

 

I'm not saying that people can't improve from their natural baseline ability, which is what I meant by "case by case." We agree on this.

 

But there's no question that some people's baselines are higher than others and some people's genes allow them to more easily read and recognize pitches more easily and with less training (and potentially to a higher level) than others. That's just life. That's all I was arguing.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think it makes zero sense to suggest plate discipline can't be taught and improved. It is far more likely a nurture issue, rather than nature, that determines how patient a guy is at the plate. The whole "you have to hit your way off the island" and hit your way through the minors and it's called hitting not walking thing has rubbed off on players. Soriano could have been better at that aspect of the game. If he physically couldn't then fine, I'll criticize his lack of physical ability to be a better baseball player, just like I criticize Theriot's lack of ability to hit for any power or any number of pitcher's lack of ability to throw better breaking balls and faster fastballs.

 

But it still makes no sense to suggest you can't learn and improve plate discipline.

[David]

I think it makes zero sense to suggest plate discipline can't be taught and improved. It is far more likely a nurture issue, rather than nature, that determines how patient a guy is at the plate. The whole "you have to hit your way off the island" and hit your way through the minors and it's called hitting not walking thing has rubbed off on players. Soriano could have been better at that aspect of the game. If he physically couldn't then fine, I'll criticize his lack of physical ability to be a better baseball player, just like I criticize Theriot's lack of ability to hit for any power or any number of pitcher's lack of ability to throw better breaking balls and faster fastballs.

 

But it still makes no sense to suggest you can't learn and improve plate discipline.

 

 

Maybe you can, but it can't exactly be anywhere near easy at the major league level.

 

Sliders are supposed to be difficult to read. They're nasty breaking pitches being thrown by major league pitchers. Maybe he just isn't as good as the truly elite hitters at doing it. Maybe he could improve. It's really not easy to say.

[Benchwarmer]

You're right. What was I thinking? Natural ability and what essentially amounts to superhuman eyesight has nothing to do with pitch recognition and anybody can be trained to read major league pitches.

 

Nobody is predisposed to doing it far more easily, right? I'm an idiot.

 

I think it's a combination of both. Really good hitters seem to recognize the pitch, where it's going in the strike zone, can they hit it well, do they just foul it off or take it. Yogi Berra who was a notoriously bad ball hitter created a real problem for pitchers, becase he'd swing and hit pitches nowhere near the strike zone. Frank Thomas was often criticized for taking strikes, looking for the perfect pitch.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think it makes zero sense to suggest plate discipline can't be taught and improved. It is far more likely a nurture issue, rather than nature, that determines how patient a guy is at the plate. The whole "you have to hit your way off the island" and hit your way through the minors and it's called hitting not walking thing has rubbed off on players. Soriano could have been better at that aspect of the game. If he physically couldn't then fine, I'll criticize his lack of physical ability to be a better baseball player, just like I criticize Theriot's lack of ability to hit for any power or any number of pitcher's lack of ability to throw better breaking balls and faster fastballs.

 

But it still makes no sense to suggest you can't learn and improve plate discipline.

 

 

Maybe you can, but it can't exactly be anywhere near easy at the major league level.

 

Sliders are supposed to be difficult to read. They're nasty breaking pitches being thrown by major league pitchers. Maybe he just isn't as good as the truly elite hitters at doing it. Maybe he could improve. It's really not easy to say.

 

I think it's very easy to say he's not good at it, he should have improved that aspect of his game earlier in his life, and it's perfectly acceptable to criticize that area of his game.

[abuck1220]

I don't like Soriano. I am happy when he's productive and don't root against him. I hate seeing him flail away at that slider away. Why does anyone throw him anything else?

 

people make this argument all the time, and it's obvious that either a) it's not as easy as you think to throw certain pitches in certain spots all the time or b) he truly doesn't flail at every slider away. otherwise he'd be ryan harvey and not a borderline HOFer.

 

Or C, professional baseball pitchers are cocky sons of bitches that think they can get anybody with their heat and don't need to [expletive] foot around with nothing but breaking balls.

 

well, that's not true. baseball players probably aren't the brightest bunch, but they're smart enough to know that if all they have to do to get out soriano is throw him crap, they'd throw crap.

[Banedon]

I don't like Soriano. I am happy when he's productive and don't root against him. I hate seeing him flail away at that slider away. Why does anyone throw him anything else?

 

people make this argument all the time, and it's obvious that either a) it's not as easy as you think to throw certain pitches in certain spots all the time or b) he truly doesn't flail at every slider away. otherwise he'd be ryan harvey and not a borderline HOFer.

 

Or C, professional baseball pitchers are cocky sons of bitches that think they can get anybody with their heat and don't need to [expletive] foot around with nothing but breaking balls.

 

well, that's not true. baseball players probably aren't the brightest bunch, but they're smart enough to know that if all they have to do to get out soriano is throw him crap, they'd throw crap.

 

They sure knew how to throw crap every time to get Fukudome out the second half of last season.

[Guest]

I don't like Soriano. I am happy when he's productive and don't root against him. I hate seeing him flail away at that slider away. Why does anyone throw him anything else?

 

people make this argument all the time, and it's obvious that either a) it's not as easy as you think to throw certain pitches in certain spots all the time or b) he truly doesn't flail at every slider away. otherwise he'd be ryan harvey and not a borderline HOFer.

 

Or C, professional baseball pitchers are cocky sons of bitches that think they can get anybody with their heat and don't need to [expletive] foot around with nothing but breaking balls.

 

well, that's not true. baseball players probably aren't the brightest bunch, but they're smart enough to know that if all they have to do to get out soriano is throw him crap, they'd throw crap.

 

They sure knew how to throw crap every time to get Fukudome out the second half of last season.

I think Soriano hits a lot of mistake pitches. If I were a manager I'd never give him a fastball and I'd tell my guy to keep the ball up if not low and away. He's a deadly low ball hitter.

[abuck1220]

if it were that simple (and if soriano only hit mistake pitches) soriano wouldn't be a borderline HOFer.

[Guest]

if it were that simple (and if soriano only hit mistake pitches) soriano wouldn't be a borderline HOFer.

He isn't a borderline HOFer for his BA or OBP either.

[abuck1220]

what

[Hairyducked Idiot]

He isn't a borderline HOFer

 

FYP.

[David]

He isn't a borderline HOFer

 

FYP.

 

Agreed.

 

There's nothing all that spectacular about his numbers.

[jersey cubs fan]

if it were that simple (and if soriano only hit mistake pitches) soriano wouldn't be a borderline HOFer.

 

i don't see how Soriano is a borderline HOFer. He played on the Yankees and was on a WS champion, but that's not enough to ignore his lack of numbers.

[SouthSideRyan]

Depends how long he can put off a decline phase, and how long his legs hold up. It's not impossible to imagine him finishing up with 500 HRs/400 SBs. He'd probably make it off of that.

[Roast]

if it were that simple (and if soriano only hit mistake pitches) soriano wouldn't be a borderline HOFer.

 

i don't see how Soriano is a borderline HOFer. He played on the Yankees and was on a WS champion, but that's not enough to ignore his lack of numbers.

I assume the reasoning is that he's one of only a few guys with 250HR/250Steals plus he's hit fifty-some leadoff homers.

 

Not that I necessarily agree (or disagree) with that, but I think that's the argument.

[David]

Depends how long he can put off a decline phase, and how long his legs hold up. It's not impossible to imagine him finishing up with 500 HRs/400 SBs. He'd probably make it off of that.

 

He'd have to go quite a bit longer for that, no? He's just at around 280 HR right now... if he keeps hitting ~30 a year that would take him to age 39 or 40...

[Roast]

Depends how long he can put off a decline phase, and how long his legs hold up. It's not impossible to imagine him finishing up with 500 HRs/400 SBs. He'd probably make it off of that.

 

He'd have to go quite a bit longer for that, no? He's just at around 280 HR right now... if he keeps hitting ~30 a year that would take him to age 39 or 40...

Not unthinkable.

[David]

Depends how long he can put off a decline phase, and how long his legs hold up. It's not impossible to imagine him finishing up with 500 HRs/400 SBs. He'd probably make it off of that.

 

He'd have to go quite a bit longer for that, no? He's just at around 280 HR right now... if he keeps hitting ~30 a year that would take him to age 39 or 40...

Not unthinkable.

 

To me it kinda is, but I guess we'll see.

[David]

We're definitely talking about Kevin Gregg right now.

[Roast]

Depends how long he can put off a decline phase, and how long his legs hold up. It's not impossible to imagine him finishing up with 500 HRs/400 SBs. He'd probably make it off of that.

 

He'd have to go quite a bit longer for that, no? He's just at around 280 HR right now... if he keeps hitting ~30 a year that would take him to age 39 or 40...

Not unthinkable.

 

To me it kinda is, but I guess we'll see.

For clarification: I think it's highly unlikely, but not impossible.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Depends how long he can put off a decline phase, and how long his legs hold up. It's not impossible to imagine him finishing up with 500 HRs/400 SBs. He'd probably make it off of that.

 

It's not impossible, but it's such a remote possibility as to not come up reasonably in discussion.

[rocket]

regardless of his hall of fame credentials, abuck is right. if it was really that easy to get soriano out all the time, he would have never made it past the minor leagues.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Soriano 2-for-7 with a pair of singles and a walk vs. Kevin Gregg in his career.

[jersey cubs fan]

regardless of his hall of fame credentials, abuck is right. if it was really that easy to get soriano out all the time, he would have never made it past the minor leagues.

 

Except that's not the point, he shouldn't get himself out as easily as he does. abuck is hung up on semantics. Of course it's not that easy, but it's easier than it should be.