Ronny Cedeno/Mark O'Neal confrontation

[Peoriaman]

agree, I wish Cedeno well, but he isn't very good. He may have the worst baseball instincts of any Cub I have seen.

 

Worse than Ryan Theriot?

 

Not even close

 

Because Ryan Theriot didn't make several boneheaded mistakes throughout this season.

 

No, he did make a few as our starting ss. Cedeno made more in very limited play. Theriot also had close to a .400 OBP. Cedeno, not so much.

[SouthSideRyan]

The irony being that Theriot's "close to" 400 OBP is misleading due to the many boneheaded baserunning mistakes he made wiping out his being on base.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

The irony being that Theriot's "close to" 400 OBP is misleading due to the many boneheaded baserunning mistakes he made wiping out his being on base.

his insane number of XBH's should be enough to make up for that though, right?

[Peoriaman]

The irony being that Theriot's "close to" 400 OBP is misleading due to the many boneheaded baserunning mistakes he made wiping out his being on base.

 

hyperbole galore here.

[jersey cubs fan]

The irony being that Theriot's "close to" 400 OBP is misleading due to the many boneheaded baserunning mistakes he made wiping out his being on base.

 

hyperbole galore here.

 

Where? The word many? The fact is he had some horrible caught stealing numbers and other situations where he took himself off the basepaths, far more than should be acceptable.

[bukie]

The irony being that Theriot's "close to" 400 OBP is misleading due to the many boneheaded baserunning mistakes he made wiping out his being on base.

 

hyperbole galore here.

 

Given that only a single word in that entire quote could even be interpreted as hyperbole, the irony here is that your 3 word reply contained more hyperbole.

[UMFan83]

The irony being that Theriot's "close to" 400 OBP is misleading due to the many boneheaded baserunning mistakes he made wiping out his being on base.

 

hyperbole galore here.

 

Where? The word many? The fact is he had some horrible caught stealing numbers and other situations where he took himself off the basepaths, far more than should be acceptable.

 

I think he's implying that Theriot's base running gaffes do not take away enough of his OBP for it to be a relevant point.

 

I don't agree with him, but I think that's his line of thinking.

[Peoriaman]

The irony being that Theriot's "close to" 400 OBP is misleading due to the many boneheaded baserunning mistakes he made wiping out his being on base.

 

hyperbole galore here.

 

Where? The word many? The fact is he had some horrible caught stealing numbers and other situations where he took himself off the basepaths, far more than should be acceptable.

 

I think he's implying that Theriot's base running gaffes do not take away enough of his OBP for it to be a relevant point.

 

I don't agree with him, but I think that's his line of thinking.

 

 

correct. Trying to insinuate that he had so many "baserunning gaffes" that it erased a .390 OBP is hyperbole. Hey, I am all for upgrading ss, Cedeno would be a significant downgrade, not an upgrade.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Theriot's OBP is an even .360 with CS included. That's pretty significant.

[SouthSideRyan]

387 OBP. Which drops to 367 when factoring his CS.(his SLG would move to 396 which isn't really accurate, because a big part of SLG is the ability to drive in runs with extra base hits; i.e. single + steal is not = double)

 

Then you've got his baserunning errors that weren't caught stealings. Being extremely generous we'll knock a few points off and you're stuck with an empty 360 OBP.

[SouthSideRyan]

Nevermind the fact that I never said the words PMan is putting into my mouth. I said his OBP is misleading because he's a terrible baserunner. I didn't say his OBP was terrible because he's an idiot baserunner.

[jersey cubs fan]

Nevermind the fact that I never said the words PMan is putting into my mouth. I said his OBP is misleading because he's a terrible baserunner. I didn't say his OBP was terrible because he's an idiot baserunner.

 

And you never said it "erased" his OBP. It affects it negatively.

[Soul]

Nevermind the fact that I never said the words PMan is putting into my mouth. I said his OBP is misleading because he's a terrible baserunner. I didn't say his OBP was terrible because he's an idiot baserunner.

 

Make Theriot the bench guy and a real damn SS for a change. Can we agree on that?

[jersey cubs fan]

The irony being that Theriot's "close to" 400 OBP is misleading due to the many boneheaded baserunning mistakes he made wiping out his being on base.

 

hyperbole galore here.

 

Where? The word many? The fact is he had some horrible caught stealing numbers and other situations where he took himself off the basepaths, far more than should be acceptable.

 

I think he's implying that Theriot's base running gaffes do not take away enough of his OBP for it to be a relevant point.

 

I don't agree with him, but I think that's his line of thinking.

 

 

correct. Trying to insinuate that he had so many "baserunning gaffes" that it erased a .390 OBP is hyperbole. Hey, I am all for upgrading ss, Cedeno would be a significant downgrade, not an upgrade.

 

First of all, he didn't insinuate that it erased a .390 OBP. He was saying it was a negative effect, which it did. The word hyperbole has no place in the discussion.

[Guest]

Nevermind the fact that I never said the words PMan is putting into my mouth. I said his OBP is misleading because he's a terrible baserunner. I didn't say his OBP was terrible because he's an idiot baserunner.

 

Make Theriot the bench guy and a real damn SS for a change. Can we agree on that?

 

Only if he promises to use his glove in playoff games.

[CubColtPacer]

387 OBP. Which drops to 367 when factoring his CS.(his SLG would move to 396 which isn't really accurate, because a big part of SLG is the ability to drive in runs with extra base hits; i.e. single + steal is not = double)

 

Then you've got his baserunning errors that weren't caught stealings. Being extremely generous we'll knock a few points off and you're stuck with an empty 360 OBP.

 

We do need to make an adjustment also for how many throwing errors Theriot caused due to his baserunning. Just on steal attempts, that would be 3 errors this year by opposing catchers that allowed extra bases for himself and others. At the same time, double steals have to be treated differently. If you're on the front end of a double steal you should get a positive adjustment, a back end of a double steal gets a negative adjustment. That would likely be more negative than positive for Theriot this year.

 

His baserunning was definitely a net negative this year. It's hard to pin down exactly how much. The problem becomes that some of the positives of aggressive baserunning are hard to pin down statistically while we can pin down how many times he was thrown out at 2nd, 3rd, or home (although we'd have to look through the game logs to find out the times he was thrown out other than steal attempts).

Even with that, him getting thrown out at bases definitely was enough of an effect for his baserunning to be noted as a negative to his game this year though. But the deeper you get in and the more adjustments you start making to try to finetune a number, the more that negative would probably tend to get overstated. Don't get me wrong-it was still a very unacceptable amount of aggression. But it's much harder to analyze the benefits of aggression than it is to be able to take off the detriments.

[rynefan]

Nevermind the fact that I never said the words PMan is putting into my mouth. I said his OBP is misleading because he's a terrible baserunner. I didn't say his OBP was terrible because he's an idiot baserunner.

 

The Cubs are a terrible baserunning team in general. We could use some upgrades in that dept.

[Peoriaman]

I would be thrilled with an upgrade at ss. My point is that it isn't Cedeno. Since apparently nobody disagrees with that, let's move on.

[imb]

Nevermind the fact that I never said the words PMan is putting into my mouth. I said his OBP is misleading because he's a terrible baserunner. I didn't say his OBP was terrible because he's an idiot baserunner.

 

lol peeman

[Cynosure]

Nevermind the fact that I never said the words PMan is putting into my mouth. I said his OBP is misleading because he's a terrible baserunner. I didn't say his OBP was terrible because he's an idiot baserunner.

 

lol peeman

 

lol mature

[Tracer Bullet]

I would be thrilled with an upgrade at ss. My point is that it isn't Cedeno. Since apparently nobody disagrees with that, let's move on.

 

I still think over a full season of regular ABs, Cedeno gives you more upside than Theriot and with our offense, it's a risk I'd take. So I disagree with you. But I really don't want to get into that discussion again.

[jacey]

Bruce- any specifics on what the confrontation with O'neal was about?

[SouthSideRyan]

I would be thrilled with an upgrade at ss. My point is that it isn't Cedeno. Since apparently nobody disagrees with that, let's move on.

 

I still think over a full season of regular ABs, Cedeno gives you more upside than Theriot and with our offense, it's a risk I'd take. So I disagree with you. But I really don't want to get into that discussion again.

 

It depends on how the team looks next year. For example, I(and others) wanted Pie to stay in the lineup this season because we were coasting to the division title. Of course it worked out better this way, because now I can heart Jim Edmonds forever.

 

Point being, if we're in position to coast again, that's where you'd go with the high risk type guys, because even if they flame out, you still have a division title, it just takes an extra couple days. Whether we can afford to go with 3 high risk guys(your mileage may vary on how much "risk" there are in each) in Cedeno, Pie, and Kosuke is a different question.

[Irrelevant Dude]

Theriot's OBP is an even .360 with CS included. That's pretty significant.

If you're going to play that game, then you have to count every hit where he stole 2nd base as a double, and suddenly his slugging percentage doesn't look quite so bad.

[SouthSideRyan]

Theriot's OBP is an even .360 with CS included. That's pretty significant.

If you're going to play that game, then you have to count every hit where he stole 2nd base as a double, and suddenly his slugging percentage doesn't look quite so bad.

 

I already addressed this. It makes it 396 which still sucks.