Re: College Basketball 2008-2009

[soapy]

and to compare IU's situation to St. Augustine's or Texas Southern's is a mockery.

[CubColtPacer]

Regarding those dismissals, how many of them were flat out IU kicking kids out?

 

Crawford chose to transfer. Holman chose to transfer. I believe McGee chose to transfer.

 

Were Ellis, Bassett, and Thomas really great bets to be eligible this year?

 

Giving Indiana credit for this is similar to giving them credit for punishing themselves one scholarship that they weren't going to give out anyway(cause the recruit that had it dealt crack) and withholding Sampson's 500,000 bonus(which benefitted the university, not having to pay 500,000)

 

I read the article when it first came out, so I don't remember, but the biggest crime about the IU situation(not saying it's unique to them) is that they are able to take APR scholarship hits in advance, which is absurd. Those scholarships weren't getting filled unless Crean was a moron, and craved more mediocre white guys. To call that an APR punishment is a mockery.

 

Crawford did choose to transfer because everyone else left (he was the last player to go). Holman also was mostly his own decision, although we don't know what happened in that meeting that made him so angry.

 

McGhee was kicked off the team and probably wouldn't have been eligible. Thomas was kicked off of the team for other reasons. Bassett had been eligible for 1 1/2 seasons already, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that if Sampson had stayed he would have remained eligible. I can't give that benefit to Ellis however as he had no history with the school.

 

As for the APR, you know I believe as well that it was an absolute joke that IU was able to take the penalties this year. That does not mean that my problems with the system are not still there..I don't believe that APR and men's basketball mix real well. The formula hits you too hard with transfers and early entrants into the NBA to work as a true gauge of what a program is actually doing academically in that particular sport.

 

But right now, the formula is what it is, and IU shouldn't have been able to take the penalties early. If it had just so fallen to where their penalties were in a year where they had few people anyway, then that's good luck. But they shouldn't have been able to proactively take punishment just because it wouldn't hurt this year.

[Exile on Waveland]

I know it's been discussed a ton on here, but here's an article about the non-punishment Indiana got. A few interesting things I hadn't heard before about the decision making process by the NCAA.

 

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=dw-indiana120908&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

 

That article is specious and a crock. I'll refer you to CCP's post for more.

[Exile on Waveland]

Regarding those dismissals, how many of them were flat out IU kicking kids out?

 

Crawford chose to transfer. Holman chose to transfer. I believe McGee chose to transfer.

 

Were Ellis, Bassett, and Thomas really great bets to be eligible this year?

 

Giving Indiana credit for this is similar to giving them credit for punishing themselves one scholarship that they weren't going to give out anyway(cause the recruit that had it dealt crack) and withholding Sampson's 500,000 bonus(which benefitted the university, not having to pay 500,000)

 

I read the article when it first came out, so I don't remember, but the biggest crime about the IU situation(not saying it's unique to them) is that they are able to take APR scholarship hits in advance, which is absurd. Those scholarships weren't getting filled unless Crean was a moron, and craved more mediocre white guys. To call that an APR punishment is a mockery.

 

Those players almost certainly wouldn't be gone if Sampson was still IU's coach. The coaching change instigated everyone of their exits. Regardless of the nomenclature, their departures weren't exactly unilateral player decisions.

 

As to the scholarship, Crean brought in 14 -- FOURTEEN -- new players (including eight scholarship players), but yet couldn't have filled one more scholarship? You keep framing the issue as the lost scholarship from the Bud Mackey situation, but, the fact is, he was dismissed while Sampson was still the coach. I guarantee you Crean could have filled one more spot, if he so desired.

 

Finally, as to your "mediocre white guys" comment, only two of the scholarship players Crean brought in were Caucasian. One is Tom Pritchard (14.1 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 59% fg) who is certainly above mediocre and the other is Matt Roth, who, if nothing else, should be a weapon as a 3-point specialist. Also, both were Sampson recruits. Both were also 3-star recruits. Now, if you're talking walk-ons, then IU certainly has its fair share of "mediocre white guys."

 

 

ETA: The APR situation isn't really cogent or fair, as CCP said. Those are the rules though.

[SouthSideRyan]

As to the scholarship, Crean brought in 14 -- FOURTEEN -- new players (including eight scholarship players), but yet couldn't have filled one more scholarship? You keep framing the issue as the lost scholarship from the Bud Mackey situation, but, the fact is, he was dismissed while Sampson was still the coach. I guarantee you Crean could have filled one more spot, if he so desired.

 

Sure he could've. He also would have remained 4 schollies under the limit. As I said, he'd be a moron to do so as the classes are already unbalanced enough(and at least one guy from this year's team is gonna be forced out to make room for next year's class. i.e. later Tijan, thanks for not bringing Negedu with you) I framed it as Mackey because the scholarship was docked by IU while Sampson was still the coach and shortly after Mackey was caught dealing. How am I supposed to frame it?

 

In saying mediocre white guys it was a half joke/half shot at some racist IU fans who are glad to see basketball "played the way it was meant to be"(with white guys)

 

I just don't see why IU should be given credit for canning Sampson when he the NCAA was gonna force him out once the investigation was through. Especially when IU waited 4 months to do it. I mean is the argument, "look at all the losses we suffered for following the rules? Isn't this enough?"

[Exile on Waveland]

As to the scholarship, Crean brought in 14 -- FOURTEEN -- new players (including eight scholarship players), but yet couldn't have filled one more scholarship? You keep framing the issue as the lost scholarship from the Bud Mackey situation, but, the fact is, he was dismissed while Sampson was still the coach. I guarantee you Crean could have filled one more spot, if he so desired.

 

Sure he could've. He also would have remained 4 schollies under the limit. As I said, he'd be a moron to do so as the classes are already unbalanced enough(and at least one guy from this year's team is gonna be forced out to make room for next year's class. i.e. later Tijan, thanks for not bringing Negedu with you) I framed it as Mackey because the scholarship was docked by IU while Sampson was still the coach and shortly after Mackey was caught dealing. How am I supposed to frame it?

 

In saying mediocre white guys it was a half joke/half shot at some racist IU fans who are glad to see basketball "played the way it was meant to be"(with white guys)

 

I just don't see why IU should be given credit for canning Sampson when he the NCAA was gonna force him out once the investigation was through. Especially when IU waited 4 months to do it. I mean is the argument, "look at all the losses we suffered for following the rules? Isn't this enough?"

 

If someone doesn't end up transferring, I would assume you'll see Jeremiah Rivers pay his own way. Again, IU didn't have to dock Mackey's scholarship. I sure don't remember otherwise, and IU could've given that scholarship out.

 

All fanbases have racist fans, IU is no different. I don't know how that is relevant. Besides, most of the players in IU's rotation are African-American. Honestly, next year's team may rely more on white guys. And this year's team, regardless of color, is certainly more enjoyable and plays the game better than last year's.

 

Of course IU should be given credit for self-reporting and then self-sanctioning the situation. We've agreed that IU waited too long to rid themselves of Sampson, but, the fact remains, they did eventually do so. The NCAA likely would've never found out about the phone calls -- they are notoriously poor monitors -- if it weren't for IU. IU was lazy, naive and arrogant in the situation. What they weren't is malicious. I don't see how that shouldn't factor in. What would the motivation be to ever self-report if IU was hammered over phone calls?

[SouthSideRyan]

If someone doesn't end up transferring, I would assume you'll see Jeremiah Rivers pay his own way. Again, IU didn't have to dock Mackey's scholarship. I sure don't remember otherwise, and IU could've given that scholarship out.

 

They could've found somebody else, but it's not like they were in on anybody else at the time as they had their full allotment used. They were very likely to be banking that scholarship anyway. Similar to the APR "hits" they're taking this year, they used the initial findings as an excuse to "punish" themselves by taking away the schollie.

 

All fanbases have racist fans, IU is no different. I don't know how that is relevant. Besides, most of the players in IU's rotation are African-American. Honestly, next year's team may rely more on white guys. And this year's team, regardless of color, is certainly more enjoyable and plays the game better than last year's.

 

As I said it was a joke, but one that was pretty useless considering no IU fans around here have exhibited anything close to racism. You just see so much online and in person from fans of a school located in the KKK's home state about how things are "back to the way IU basketball should be", "Glad to see basketball played the way it was meant to be", etc. it gives me a chuckle. Especially when you consider these kids playing basketball the way it was meant to be played play some of the sloppiest basketball the state of Indiana has ever seen. Again, was not meant as a slam on you or the other IU fans here.

 

Of course IU should be given credit for self-reporting and then self-sanctioning the situation. We've agreed that IU waited too long to rid themselves of Sampson, but, the fact remains, they did eventually do so. The NCAA likely would've never found out about the phone calls -- they are notoriously poor monitors -- if it weren't for IU. IU was lazy, naive and arrogant in the situation. What they weren't is malicious. I don't see how that shouldn't factor in. What would the motivation be to ever self-report if IU was hammered over phone calls?

 

People keep coming back to the phone calls, just the phone calls. The phone calls aren't the issue. It's the Blago like violation of NCAA rules while he knew he was being watched. As has been stated, the phone calls themselves were a minor violation. But its the doing something again after already being scolded for it that you can't stand by and allow. And the institution after finding these issues allowing him to stick around for another 4 months is a big problem for me.

 

I am in complete agreement with you and CCP that the NCAA is a joke. I'm an Illinois fan, you'd be hard pressed to find one worth his salt that thinks otherwise after Deon Thomas. Widespread cheating and fraud is going on at universities and the NCAA does nothing until it's reported by an outside source. The NCAA is a money-making venture, not one put in to ensure the integrity of amateur athletics.

[soapy]

In saying mediocre white guys it was a half joke/half shot at some racist IU fans who are glad to see basketball "played the way it was meant to be"(with white guys)

this is often true, unfortunately. although calling some of these guys mediocre is an overstatement. they might reach mediocrity on their best day.

 

eta: when i say it's true i mean that many fans say that, not that white guys actually "play the right way".

[hawkeyecub]

Halfway off the subject, where did all the IU defectors from last year land?

[SouthSideRyan]

Daniel Moore's a walk on? He's getting an assload of minutes. Why is he playing so much?

[SouthSideRyan]

Halfway off the subject, where did all the IU defectors from last year land?

 

Ellis to Oklahoma City, Thomas to Robert Morris (IL), McGee to Auburn, Holman to Detroit, Crawford to Xavier, Bassett to UAB.

[soapy]

Daniel Moore's a walk on? He's getting an assload of minutes. Why is he playing so much?

 

they don't have anyone else to play PG, basically. Jones is the other "primary" PG and he's still out because of the concusion. they literally just don't have the bodies.

 

additionally, Moore is about the only person who will continually push the ball up-court which I'm guessing gets him some points with Crean.

 

lastly, part of me sometimes wonders if Crean is playing to the fanbase a bit. let's not pretend there aren't several IU fans out there eating this stuff up. they love seeing the little white guy run around and dive on the ground and take charges and give up his body. people like my dad, for instance, just absolutely love that stuff and can gloss over how terrible he is because, "hey, what do you expect? he's just a walk-on." what do i expect? i expect to not have to rely on walk-ons like Ryan Tapek, Erik Suhr and Daniel Moore to play major minutes for a (formerly) top-notch basketball program (this year excluded).

[CubColtPacer]

Daniel Moore's a walk on? He's getting an assload of minutes. Why is he playing so much?

 

He's one of the only guys who can get the ball over the halfcourt line without turning it over constantly. Dumes certainly can't. Williams can't. Verdell Jones is decent at it but hasn't played since he got destroyed by that pick.

 

IU has been using Moore as their primary point guard, and when Moore is out of the game they have been shifting Malik Story from small/power forward to point guard.

 

Moore is a frustrating player. He is much better than I could have realized at driving around people and through traffic (actually one of the two Hoosiers who can drive)...but since he doesn't really ever shoot, that leaves him into some pretty bad spots when he gets around the rim. It's always drive and kick with him, and well defenses catch on to that pretty quickly. He has quick hands which helps him on the defensive end and his size hasn't killed him on that end of the court.

[mul21]

I know it's been discussed a ton on here, but here's an article about the non-punishment Indiana got. A few interesting things I hadn't heard before about the decision making process by the NCAA.

 

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=dw-indiana120908&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

 

That article is specious and a crock. I'll refer you to CCP's post for more.

 

I didn't say it was accurate or reflected my opinion on the situation. I just thought his ideas on how the NCAA looked at the situation were interesting. I don't have any idea if he's accurate or not.

 

I'm in agreement with those who say their punishment was enough with the exception of the APR stuff. Post season punishment that would have actually affected them would have been way too excessive considering that likely would have resulted in a 3 year ban.

[Exile on Waveland]

Daniel Moore's a walk on? He's getting an assload of minutes. Why is he playing so much?

 

Besides CCP and soapy's responses, I think it's important to note that Moore did receive a scholarship offer from Boston U. He also made the Indiana All Star team last year. He's not someone that should be starting at PG for Indiana, but he's not a total scrub either. Unlike some walk-ons, he's a legitimate D-1 player, if not a legitimate Big Ten caliber player.

[Guest]

Slightly related topic but does anyone think USC will get at all punished for the OJ Mayo thing?

[CubbieBum]

Slightly related topic but does anyone think USC will get at all punished for the OJ Mayo thing?

 

You can swap in Reggie Bush for OJ Mayo and either way the answer is no.

[SpongeWorthy]

I'm not sure.

 

What I do know is that kneejerkers will continue to conflate agents giving gifts to potential clients with boosters using gifts to lure recruits to their school--even though agents have a vested interest in keeping clients OUT of college.

[Guest]

Slightly related topic but does anyone think USC will get at all punished for the OJ Mayo thing?

 

You can swap in Reggie Bush for OJ Mayo and either way the answer is no.

 

I figured they might go after USC basketball to protect USC football.

 

The NCAA can't do anything about Reggie Bush until the court case is over.

[bcl412]

please beat Iowa State :beg:

[hawkeyecub]

please beat Iowa State :beg:

 

Really worried about Brackins getting away from us inside. If we can defend him well and keep them off the offensive glass it will ease some of my concerns about us in the Big Ten. Well, a little bit at least.

[ISUCubsFan]

please beat Iowa State :beg:

 

Really worried about Brackins getting away from us inside. If we can defend him well and keep them off the offensive glass it will ease some of my concerns about us in the Big Ten. Well, a little bit at least.

 

If Brackins decides to make his 5 footers and gets the ball enough he'll get his points, but he put up 30+ on UNI and that game still went to OT. And ISU doesn't do offensive rebounding, it's just not McDermott's style. They rank 331 out of 344 in OR% despite being one of the tallest teams in the country and rebounding well on defense. Since ISU doesn't create turnovers or outrebound anyone, they need to rely on outshooting most teams they play. Considering Iowa ranks 3rd in eFG% the chances aren't good tonight, but ISU is shooting far better than they have in the past. I'm predicting something like 63-50 Iowa, but I hope I'm wrong.

[Rusch33]

Iowa State is terrible. Iowa should have no problems with them tonight.

[ISUCubsFan]

Wow. I can't imagine ISU playing worse than they just did in that half. Completely awful in every possible way.

[bcl412]

Iowa wins 73-57. It wasn't even that close they were up 25 in the second half and kind of stopped trying to score

 

9-2 now playing Drake a week from tomorrow for the "state title"