Why can't the Cubs develope position players?

[champaignchris]

I'm not trying to rag on Pie, Theriot or anyone else. I'm thinking more long term than that. In the mid- to late-eighties the Cubs actually did a pretty good job of developing major league starter caliber position players, highlighted by Shawon Dunston, Rafael Palmeiro, Mark Grace, and Joe Girardi.

 

Since 1990 they have managed to develope nobody. I'm not exaggerating. Nobody. All of their good position players have been acquired through trade or free agency. Seriously, take a look back at the rosters...

 

Rey Sanchez, who came up with the Cubs in 1991 (but was actually a Rangers draft pick) is pretty easily the best of the bunch. After him, you have Corey Patterson and Doug Glanville. And then who? Rick Wilkens? Derrick May? I can't even think of anyone that came up through the Cubs system and then went on to be good for another team.

 

As it stands, Soto, Pie, Cedeno, Fontenot, Theriot and Murton are probably the most impressive group of position prospects the Cubs have had in close to 20 years (to the extent that Fontenot and Murton can even be considered Cubs' prospects). How sad is that!

 

CHUMP EDIT - 1993>1991

Edited April 15, 2008 by champaignchris

[CoolHandLuke]

I think the Cubs have done pretty poorly in almost every aspect of developing position players. Scouting, drafting, teaching, handling correctly once in the majors. Everything.

[KingCubsFan]

Up until about 10 years ago, it had to do with a terrible farm system. Now, I think it has to do with the fact that players just don't get a chance to develop and adjust to the major leagues. After a few months struggling, we try to replace them, or we try to change them radically. Felix Pie will probably be the next example of this

[bcl412]

I don't have any knowledge of this, so it is just a question. How much of this do you think has to do with the fact that we are drafting lower than we used to.

[ISUCubsFan]

Part of the problem is that the Cubs haven't had any great prospects that would develop under any circumstances. It's debatable how much of that is bad luck and how much is bad scouting. The other problem is that young players who get called up to the majors get an extremely short leash. Just this year Pie has been a bench player after the 1st 4 games, and Murton was sent to AAA after a reasonably good 2007. This has been going on at least since Dusty became manager, but upper management is to blame as well. It's very hard to develop into a major league player when you don't get to face major league pitching.

[Outshined_One]

I don't have any knowledge of this, so it is just a question. How much of this do you think has to do with the fact that we are drafting lower than we used to.

 

This shouldn't be much of an issue in terms of developing position players for an organization like the Cubs. As we have seen in numerous previous drafts, there will always be players who fall either because of contract demands or because teams did not do their due diligence in determining whether or not a player could truly be pried away from a college commitment.

 

Moreover, by focusing solely on the draft, you ignore the international market for players. A team with sufficient resources should be able to not only afford some of the big name talent in other countries, but also should have the scouting department that can unearth the relatively unknown players who have a world of talent, but can be signed for a relatively inexpensive cost.

 

Finally, something needs to be said for coaching and development. While the Cubs have guys in this organization who have proven themselves to be competent and capable of effectively developing position players, I don't think they have had much of that in their past. I also think this is an area which the organization could stand to improve itself. I have some faith that the current crop of position prospects in the low minors will turn out some very good major league players, but there is still plenty of work ahead.

 

Pitchers, on the other hand, we've done a bang-up job of scouting and developing over the past 10 years. Go figure.

[champaignchris]

I think the issue's probably been more scouting and talent-level than anything. It's not like the guys that get out of the organization young are blowing up with other teams. Glanville and Hinske are the only two that I can think of that have really done anything after leaving the Cubs.

 

Even assuming the Cubs are grossly incompetant in developing their players, you'd think in 20 years you'd get one player talented enough to become a starting quality major league player at least once.

[anabiono]

I think the issue's probably been more scouting and talent-level than anything. It's not like the guys that get out of the organization young are blowing up with other teams. Glanville and Hinske are the only two that I can think of that have really done anything after leaving the Cubs.

 

Even assuming the Cubs are grossly incompetant in developing their players, you'd think in 20 years you'd get one player talented enough to become a starting quality major league player at least once.

 

SOTO

 

i do agree with you though

 

SOTO

[apete6]

Not that this makes the organization look much better, but remember this:

 

Bobby Hill = Aramis Ramirez

Hee Seop Choi = Derrek Lee

 

Sometimes over promoting your own guys can reap some benefits.

 

Looks like this most recent crop still has some hope. Soto is obviously on his way to the Hall of Fame and whatever we may think of Theriot, he will likely stick on a major league roster for a decade or so. I would think Eric Patterson will eventually have a decent stint in the major leagues somewhere. Cedeno should have an OK run as a major leaguer. Pie is the real wild card of the bunch. If he develops into a serviceable player, the last 5 years will have been good. If not, it will have been a waste.

 

I don't count Murton or Fontenot because we didn't draft/sign them.

 

I think with Wilken in charge, we should reverse this change. However, the Vitters pick didn't make me too happy. Wieters or Porcello would have been a better start.

[jersey cubs fan]

Pitchers, on the other hand, we've done a bang-up job of scouting and developing over the past 10 years. Go figure.

 

When Andy and Jim went about overhauling the organization in the mid 90's, they explicitly talked about focusing most of their developmental attention on pitchers, while trading for bats later. They thought that was the best way to emulate the Braves, ignoring how many quality position players that franchise developed.

[Outshined_One]

Pitchers, on the other hand, we've done a bang-up job of scouting and developing over the past 10 years. Go figure.

 

When Andy and Jim went about overhauling the organization in the mid 90's, they explicitly talked about focusing most of their developmental attention on pitchers, while trading for bats later. They thought that was the best way to emulate the Braves, ignoring how many quality position players that franchise developed.

 

Quite frankly, I don't think any of us can really complain about the number of pitching prospects the Cubs have produced who have had some amount of success in the major leagues over the past ten years. Their plan worked. Off the top of my head, the following guys have pitched with varying degrees of success and exposure in the majors after spending some time in the Cubs' minor league system in the past ten years...

 

Mark Prior

Kerry Wood

Carlos Zambrano

Rich Hill

Sean Marshall

Jon Garland

Carlos Marmol

Dontrelle Willis

Sergio Mitre

Ricky Nolasco

Renyel Pinto

Carmen Pignatiello

Michael Wuertz

Ryan O'Malley

John Koronka

Todd Wellemeyer

Will Ohman

Andy Sisco

Francis Beltran

Sean Gallagher

Juan Mateo

 

That's just off the top of my head, to boot.

[Jehrico]

Brendan Harris had a pretty solid year last year and is off to a good start this year too.

[CubinNY]

Pitchers, on the other hand, we've done a bang-up job of scouting and developing over the past 10 years. Go figure.

 

When Andy and Jim went about overhauling the organization in the mid 90's, they explicitly talked about focusing most of their developmental attention on pitchers, while trading for bats later. They thought that was the best way to emulate the Braves, ignoring how many quality position players that franchise developed.

 

Quite frankly, I don't think any of us can really complain about the number of pitching prospects the Cubs have produced who have had some amount of success in the major leagues over the past ten years. Their plan worked. Off the top of my head, the following guys have pitched with varying degrees of success and exposure in the majors after spending some time in the Cubs' minor league system in the past ten years...

 

Mark Prior

Kerry Wood

Carlos Zambrano

Rich Hill

Sean Marshall

Jon Garland

Carlos Marmol

Dontrelle Willis

Sergio Mitre

Ricky Nolasco

Renyel Pinto

Carmen Pignatiello

Michael Wuertz

Ryan O'Malley

John Koronka

Todd Wellemeyer

Will Ohman

Andy Sisco

Francis Beltran

Sean Gallagher

Juan Mateo

 

That's just off the top of my head, to boot.

Weren't there quite a few years where the top two or three picks were pitchers? That has an effect too.

[bcl412]

I don't have any knowledge of this, so it is just a question. How much of this do you think has to do with the fact that we are drafting lower than we used to.

 

This shouldn't be much of an issue in terms of developing position players for an organization like the Cubs. As we have seen in numerous previous drafts, there will always be players who fall either because of contract demands or because teams did not do their due diligence in determining whether or not a player could truly be pried away from a college commitment.

 

Moreover, by focusing solely on the draft, you ignore the international market for players. A team with sufficient resources should be able to not only afford some of the big name talent in other countries, but also should have the scouting department that can unearth the relatively unknown players who have a world of talent, but can be signed for a relatively inexpensive cost.

 

Finally, something needs to be said for coaching and development. While the Cubs have guys in this organization who have proven themselves to be competent and capable of effectively developing position players, I don't think they have had much of that in their past. I also think this is an area which the organization could stand to improve itself. I have some faith that the current crop of position prospects in the low minors will turn out some very good major league players, but there is still plenty of work ahead.

 

Pitchers, on the other hand, we've done a bang-up job of scouting and developing over the past 10 years. Go figure.

 

This makes sense. Plus you can't really count on the draft in baseball like other sports. I also think the Cubs develop good pitchers basically because its different position and the people evaluating and developing them are doing a better job

[jersey cubs fan]

Pitchers, on the other hand, we've done a bang-up job of scouting and developing over the past 10 years. Go figure.

 

When Andy and Jim went about overhauling the organization in the mid 90's, they explicitly talked about focusing most of their developmental attention on pitchers, while trading for bats later. They thought that was the best way to emulate the Braves, ignoring how many quality position players that franchise developed.

 

Quite frankly, I don't think any of us can really complain about the number of pitching prospects the Cubs have produced who have had some amount of success in the major leagues over the past ten years. Their plan worked. Off the top of my head, the following guys have pitched with varying degrees of success and exposure in the majors after spending some time in the Cubs' minor league system in the past ten years...

 

Mark Prior

Kerry Wood

Carlos Zambrano

Rich Hill

Sean Marshall

Jon Garland

Carlos Marmol

Dontrelle Willis

Sergio Mitre

Ricky Nolasco

Renyel Pinto

Carmen Pignatiello

Michael Wuertz

Ryan O'Malley

John Koronka

Todd Wellemeyer

Will Ohman

Andy Sisco

Francis Beltran

Sean Gallagher

Juan Mateo

 

That's just off the top of my head, to boot.

 

A) I didn't complain about the number of pitchers.

B) The plan has not worked.

 

The plan was not just to develop pitchers. The plan was supposedly to be just like the consistently great Braves by developing your own pitchers and trading spare parts for position players. Clearly they haven't been close to great, let alone consistently great. It was then, and still is a stupid plan. You can't just develop pitchers. You have to develop position players as well.

[rawaction]

I don't think the plan was to focus on drafting and developing pitching. Granted, most of the scouting and money went that way. But the team has spent money and high picks on guys like Patterson, Bobby Hill, Kelton, Dopirak, Harvey, Montanez, etc. They went out and scouted guys like Pie, Choi, and Soto outside of the US (though Soto was in the US amateur draft).

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't think the plan was to focus on drafting and developing pitching. Granted, most of the scouting and money went that way. But the team has spent money and high picks on guys like Patterson, Bobby Hill, Kelton, Dopirak, Harvey, Montanez, etc. They went out and scouted guys like Pie, Choi, and Soto outside of the US (though Soto was in the US amateur draft).

 

That is the plan Andy said they were going with at the time. And it sure seems to have worked out that way. It's not that they were going to go exclusively with pitchers, but the focus was clearly on pitching and that's how the new and improved Cubs farm system (compared to the previously non-existent one) failed to produce any hitters.

 

The theory was, draft and develop a surplus of pitchers so you don't have to buy them, then trade for hitters later.

[Amazing_Grace]

Pitchers, on the other hand, we've done a bang-up job of scouting and developing over the past 10 years. Go figure.

 

When Andy and Jim went about overhauling the organization in the mid 90's, they explicitly talked about focusing most of their developmental attention on pitchers, while trading for bats later. They thought that was the best way to emulate the Braves, ignoring how many quality position players that franchise developed.

 

Quite frankly, I don't think any of us can really complain about the number of pitching prospects the Cubs have produced who have had some amount of success in the major leagues over the past ten years. Their plan worked. Off the top of my head, the following guys have pitched with varying degrees of success and exposure in the majors after spending some time in the Cubs' minor league system in the past ten years...

 

Mark Prior

Kerry Wood

Carlos Zambrano

Rich Hill

Sean Marshall

Jon Garland

Carlos Marmol

Dontrelle Willis

Sergio Mitre

Ricky Nolasco

Renyel Pinto

Carmen Pignatiello

Michael Wuertz

Ryan O'Malley

John Koronka

Todd Wellemeyer

Will Ohman

Andy Sisco

Francis Beltran

Sean Gallagher

Juan Mateo

 

That's just off the top of my head, to boot.

 

Kyle Farnsworth and Michael Wuertz have had decent careers as relievers, and Juan Cruz had his moments. Was Borowski developed by the Cubs or traded for?

[CuseCubFan69]

Pitchers, on the other hand, we've done a bang-up job of scouting and developing over the past 10 years. Go figure.

 

When Andy and Jim went about overhauling the organization in the mid 90's, they explicitly talked about focusing most of their developmental attention on pitchers, while trading for bats later. They thought that was the best way to emulate the Braves, ignoring how many quality position players that franchise developed.

 

Quite frankly, I don't think any of us can really complain about the number of pitching prospects the Cubs have produced who have had some amount of success in the major leagues over the past ten years. Their plan worked. Off the top of my head, the following guys have pitched with varying degrees of success and exposure in the majors after spending some time in the Cubs' minor league system in the past ten years...

 

Mark Prior

Kerry Wood

Carlos Zambrano

Rich Hill

Sean Marshall

Jon Garland

Carlos Marmol

Dontrelle Willis

Sergio Mitre

Ricky Nolasco

Renyel Pinto

Carmen Pignatiello

Michael Wuertz

Ryan O'Malley

John Koronka

Todd Wellemeyer

Will Ohman

Andy Sisco

Francis Beltran

Sean Gallagher

Juan Mateo

 

That's just off the top of my head, to boot.

 

Kyle Farnsworth and Michael Wuertz have had decent careers as relievers, and Juan Cruz had his moments. Was Borowski developed by the Cubs or traded for?

 

He was a Yankee originally.

[wrigley23]

One thing that is very consistent throughout the organization is the fact that they are horrible teachers of fundamentals when it comes to baserunning & patience at the plate. They have no baseball sense.

[MADD_DOG_31]

I'm not totally convinced the Cubs don't give the guys a chance to prove themselves in the major leagues. You can't leave a player in the lineup everyday that is hurting the team. There is still competition in baseball and you have to prove yourself. It has to make Lou sick to put Pie in the lineup right now, hes an automatic out. You have to play the best player in the present and develope guys in the minor leagues. when they get their shot at the majors they better make a splash or they are headed back. When you look at the good young players that have came up and stuck in the league the last few years they almost all have had a good start and continued. I'm not saying Pie won't ever be any good, but let him play in the minors and get a clue at the plate. He now knows what he needs to fix to make him better at the major league level. If Soto would have hit .220 when he came up last year and continued it thru the spring, he wouldnt be playing right now, but hes earned his job. Handing guys jobs is just not the way to do it. If Pie goes back to Iowa for a while, I believe he will come back a better player and if he doesnt he knows right back where he will be....putting pressure on guys and making them earn it is not a bad thing at all.

 

Just my .02

[AlwaysaCub]

That Soto guy at catcher has a chance to be pretty good methinks. On the Mark Grace level perhaps. Baseball Prospectus compared him to Jorge Posada.

 

That would be quite a player to develop.

[bhogg]

the cubs suck at life.

 

 

next topic!

[SouthSideRyan]

When you look at the good young players that have came up and stuck in the league the last few years they almost all have had a good start and continued.

 

Pedroia hit 182/308/236 in the month of April last year.

 

Chris Young through May 3rd: .202 .255 .383

 

Tulowitzki through April 25th: .185 .274 .246

 

Josh Fields through 23 games: .218 .274 .333

 

Each of these guys had cups of coffees (~80 PAS)the year before and were bad then as well.

 

That's just from guys who got rookie of the year votes last year. The only ones to start well were Braun, Delmon Young, and Reggie Willits.

 

I'm not saying Pie won't ever be any good, but let him play in the minors and get a clue at the plate.

 

Pie hit .362 .410 .563 in AAA last year. I'd say he has a clue.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'm not totally convinced the Cubs don't give the guys a chance to prove themselves in the major leagues. You can't leave a player in the lineup everyday that is hurting the team. There is still competition in baseball and you have to prove yourself. It has to make Lou sick to put Pie in the lineup right now, hes an automatic out. You have to play the best player in the present and develope guys in the minor leagues. when they get their shot at the majors they better make a splash or they are headed back. When you look at the good young players that have came up and stuck in the league the last few years they almost all have had a good start and continued. I'm not saying Pie won't ever be any good, but let him play in the minors and get a clue at the plate. He now knows what he needs to fix to make him better at the major league level. If Soto would have hit .220 when he came up last year and continued it thru the spring, he wouldnt be playing right now, but hes earned his job. Handing guys jobs is just not the way to do it. If Pie goes back to Iowa for a while, I believe he will come back a better player and if he doesnt he knows right back where he will be....putting pressure on guys and making them earn it is not a bad thing at all.

 

Just my .02

 

Completely self-defeating thinking. If a prospect isn't an immediate success in the majors, they can't play? This seems like exactly the kind of detrimental mentality that has helped the Cubs not develop more players internaly.