More lineup changes coming?

[BigbadB]

At any rate, we need to be operating under the assumption that Ryan Theriot is going to be horrible... because he's done absolutely nothing in his entire career to suggest anything to the contrary.

 

If anybody thinks that Theriot is even half the hitter that Pie is right now, they need to pay a lot more attention to what minor league stats mean. (Hint, they are very instructive)

 

While Felix Pie has really crushed the ball in the major leagues, right? So I guess it's safe to assume he'll be horrible, too?

 

As I said in another post, when the Chicago Cubs start playing the Omaha Royals - let me know. Cedeno raked in the minor leagues - why isn't he starting in front of Theriot? His minor league stats suggest he should...

 

Interesting argument that you make here, because I would start Cedeno at SS if the choice is Cedeno or Theriot.

 

We know exactly what we have in Theriot. He's a light hitting utility infielder, much like the dozens upon dozens of other light hitting utility infielders throughout the league. Cedeno and Pie have potential to be much more.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

At any rate, we need to be operating under the assumption that Ryan Theriot is going to be horrible... because he's done absolutely nothing in his entire career to suggest anything to the contrary.

 

If anybody thinks that Theriot is even half the hitter that Pie is right now, they need to pay a lot more attention to what minor league stats mean. (Hint, they are very instructive)

 

While Felix Pie has really crushed the ball in the major leagues, right? So I guess it's safe to assume he'll be horrible, too?

 

As I said in another post, when the Chicago Cubs start playing the Omaha Royals - let me know. Cedeno raked in the minor leagues - why isn't he starting in front of Theriot? His minor league stats suggest he should...

your post makes my brain hurt

[Tracer Bullet]

for something that doesn't make a big difference in terms of run production, people sure do care about who's batting where.

 

Give this man a prize.

 

I used to post stuff about a lineup choices in the old days (circa 04' and 05') and get shouted down about how it does not matter where people bat so long as they get on base. Some of you need to take your own advice.

 

If the fight is whether Lee & ARam should hit 3/4 or vice versa, that's relatively pointless. If the issue is whether Theriot should hit 1st or 8th, it makes a fair amount of difference, I think.

[jersey cubs fan]

There are two things Lou keeps talking about that make no sense to me.

 

1) Felix Pie HAS to bat 8th.

 

2) The best use for Fukudome is as protection for Ramirez.

 

Protection is a joke. But even if you do consider it when drawing up a lineup, why in the world is it given such high priority as it apparently is given with Fukudome.

 

It's beyond absurd to me that the only 2 guys who seems to have a spot locked down are Theriot at leadoff and Pie at 8th.

[bring stone back]

At any rate, we need to be operating under the assumption that Ryan Theriot is going to be horrible... because he's done absolutely nothing in his entire career to suggest anything to the contrary.

 

If anybody thinks that Theriot is even half the hitter that Pie is right now, they need to pay a lot more attention to what minor league stats mean. (Hint, they are very instructive)

 

While Felix Pie has really crushed the ball in the major leagues, right? So I guess it's safe to assume he'll be horrible, too?

 

As I said in another post, when the Chicago Cubs start playing the Omaha Royals - let me know. Cedeno raked in the minor leagues - why isn't he starting in front of Theriot? His minor league stats suggest he should...

your post makes my brain hurt

 

The arrogance by many on this board makes mine hurt.

 

Pie and Cedeno have better minor league numbers - therefore it will just automatically translate to success at the major league despite what their past performances have shown us. I know so because numbers support my claim - despite what the actual play on the field suggests. Pay no attention to that....

Edited March 24, 2008 by bring stone back

[bring stone back]

At any rate, we need to be operating under the assumption that Ryan Theriot is going to be horrible... because he's done absolutely nothing in his entire career to suggest anything to the contrary.

 

If anybody thinks that Theriot is even half the hitter that Pie is right now, they need to pay a lot more attention to what minor league stats mean. (Hint, they are very instructive)

 

While Felix Pie has really crushed the ball in the major leagues, right? So I guess it's safe to assume he'll be horrible, too?

 

As I said in another post, when the Chicago Cubs start playing the Omaha Royals - let me know. Cedeno raked in the minor leagues - why isn't he starting in front of Theriot? His minor league stats suggest he should...

 

Interesting argument that you make here, because I would start Cedeno at SS if the choice is Cedeno or Theriot.

 

We know exactly what we have in Theriot. He's a light hitting utility infielder, much like the dozens upon dozens of other light hitting utility infielders throughout the league. Cedeno and Pie have potential to be much more.

 

That is the key phrase - potential. The problem is, Cedeno has never shown anything at the major league level - ever. At least Theriot has. Granted, it was for a month and a half but that is a month and a half longer than Cedeno.

 

This board is so funny sometimes. People bitch and moan about no championships forever, the team needs to win now, we're serious about it - yet people call for lineups and personnel changes built on more "upside" and potential.

 

Ryan Theriot is a better major league shortstop than Ronny Cedeno and that is why he is starting. I will not be surprised in the least bit if this board is debating 2-3 years from now why Pie hasn't "figured it out" because he has so much upside and potential with great minor league numbers.

[jersey cubs fan]

At any rate, we need to be operating under the assumption that Ryan Theriot is going to be horrible... because he's done absolutely nothing in his entire career to suggest anything to the contrary.

 

If anybody thinks that Theriot is even half the hitter that Pie is right now, they need to pay a lot more attention to what minor league stats mean. (Hint, they are very instructive)

 

While Felix Pie has really crushed the ball in the major leagues, right? So I guess it's safe to assume he'll be horrible, too?

 

As I said in another post, when the Chicago Cubs start playing the Omaha Royals - let me know. Cedeno raked in the minor leagues - why isn't he starting in front of Theriot? His minor league stats suggest he should...

your post makes my brain hurt

 

The arrogance by many on this board makes mine hurt.

 

Pie and Cedeno have better minor league numbers - therefore it will just automatically translate to success at the major league despite what their past performances have shown us.

 

Good minor league numbers do not mean a guy will be a good major leaguer. But a young guy with good minor league numbers should be given a chance over an older player with both bad major league numbers and bad minor league numbers. It's one thing to not give Cedeno a chance over some average major league shortstop. The problem I have is he's not getting a chance over a horrible major league shortstop.

[Soul]

I wish we something, anything substantial so we wouldn't even have to talk about Cedeno vs. Theriot. It's highly doubtful Cedeno will ever be anything special, and Ryan definitely won't. Damn crap SS position, been this way for years.

[David]

I wish we something, anything substantial so we wouldn't even have to talk about Cedeno vs. Theriot. It's highly doubtful Cedeno will ever be anything special, and Ryan definitely won't. Damn crap SS position, been this way for years.

 

Except for a glorious two months in 2004. :cry:

[Ding Dong Johnson]

At any rate, we need to be operating under the assumption that Ryan Theriot is going to be horrible... because he's done absolutely nothing in his entire career to suggest anything to the contrary.

 

If anybody thinks that Theriot is even half the hitter that Pie is right now, they need to pay a lot more attention to what minor league stats mean. (Hint, they are very instructive)

 

While Felix Pie has really crushed the ball in the major leagues, right? So I guess it's safe to assume he'll be horrible, too?

 

As I said in another post, when the Chicago Cubs start playing the Omaha Royals - let me know. Cedeno raked in the minor leagues - why isn't he starting in front of Theriot? His minor league stats suggest he should...

your post makes my brain hurt

 

The arrogance by many on this board makes mine hurt.

 

Pie and Cedeno have better minor league numbers - therefore it will just automatically translate to success at the major league despite what their past performances have shown us. I know so because numbers support my claim - despite what the actual play on the field suggests. Pay no attention to that....

Arrogance? There was nothing about your post that made sense. Pie and Cedeno have put up really, really good numbers in the minor leagues, and Pie was usually very young for his level. Ryan Theriot never put up really, really good numbers and was often very old for his level. Ryan Theriot has done nothing in the major leagues to have an everyday job handed to him, while guys like Pie and Cedeno have proven, based on their minor league numbers, that they deserve a shot.

[BigbadB]

That is the key phrase - potential. The problem is, Cedeno has never shown anything at the major league level - ever. At least Theriot has. Granted, it was for a month and a half but that is a month and a half longer than Cedeno.

 

This board is so funny sometimes. People bitch and moan about no championships forever, the team needs to win now, we're serious about it - yet people call for lineups and personnel changes built on more "upside" and potential.

 

Ryan Theriot is a better major league shortstop than Ronny Cedeno and that is why he is starting. I will not be surprised in the least bit if this board is debating 2-3 years from now why Pie hasn't "figured it out" because he has so much upside and potential with great minor league numbers.

 

You are right. The key phrase is potential, which Theriot possesses about zero of. Granted, the hopes for Cedeno to do anything at the major league level don't look much like anything more than a longshot at this point, but it's Jim Hendry that put this organization in this position at SS. When all you have for depth at SS is a utility backup and an aging prospect who hasn't done much at the major league level, maybe, just maybe the solution is to look outside of the organization for a more productive fix. All offseason, he has looked at every other position of need, and in some cases positions that are not in need of an upgrade, and ignored the biggest need.

[Derwood]

i knew we should've signed A-Rod

[jersey cubs fan]

All offseason, he has looked at every other position of need, and in some cases positions that are not in need of an upgrade, and ignored the biggest need.

 

At the same time, the future of that position is pretty scary. As far as I know, there aren't any legit prospects in the pipeline at SS. If they get rid of Cedeno, or he busts, they are on a path of having to rely on Theriot for years to come. And that increases the odds that they will eventually feel forced to go after another Neifi/Cesar.

[XZero771679666304]

At any rate, we need to be operating under the assumption that Ryan Theriot is going to be horrible... because he's done absolutely nothing in his entire career to suggest anything to the contrary.

 

If anybody thinks that Theriot is even half the hitter that Pie is right now, they need to pay a lot more attention to what minor league stats mean. (Hint, they are very instructive)

 

While Felix Pie has really crushed the ball in the major leagues, right? So I guess it's safe to assume he'll be horrible, too?

 

As I said in another post, when the Chicago Cubs start playing the Omaha Royals - let me know. Cedeno raked in the minor leagues - why isn't he starting in front of Theriot? His minor league stats suggest he should...

your post makes my brain hurt

 

The arrogance by many on this board makes mine hurt.

 

Pie and Cedeno have better minor league numbers - therefore it will just automatically translate to success at the major league despite what their past performances have shown us. I know so because numbers support my claim - despite what the actual play on the field suggests. Pay no attention to that....

Arrogance? There was nothing about your post that made sense. Pie and Cedeno have put up really, really good numbers in the minor leagues, and Pie was usually very young for his level. Ryan Theriot never put up really, really good numbers and was often very old for his level. Ryan Theriot has done nothing in the major leagues to have an everyday job handed to him, while guys like Pie and Cedeno have proven, based on their minor league numbers, that they deserve a shot.

 

To be fair, Cedeno had a pretty good shot in 2006.

 

But unless he gets shipped of to Baltimore, I think you'll see him again when Theriot continues to play the way he did for most of last season - badly. Ryan just isn't that talented and was exposed. I don't see that changing.

 

Pie is a different story. They just need to give him the job and let him try and hold it for most of the year.

[Tracer Bullet]

At any rate, we need to be operating under the assumption that Ryan Theriot is going to be horrible... because he's done absolutely nothing in his entire career to suggest anything to the contrary.

 

If anybody thinks that Theriot is even half the hitter that Pie is right now, they need to pay a lot more attention to what minor league stats mean. (Hint, they are very instructive)

 

While Felix Pie has really crushed the ball in the major leagues, right? So I guess it's safe to assume he'll be horrible, too?

 

As I said in another post, when the Chicago Cubs start playing the Omaha Royals - let me know. Cedeno raked in the minor leagues - why isn't he starting in front of Theriot? His minor league stats suggest he should...

your post makes my brain hurt

 

The arrogance by many on this board makes mine hurt.

 

Pie and Cedeno have better minor league numbers - therefore it will just automatically translate to success at the major league despite what their past performances have shown us. I know so because numbers support my claim - despite what the actual play on the field suggests. Pay no attention to that....

Arrogance? There was nothing about your post that made sense. Pie and Cedeno have put up really, really good numbers in the minor leagues, and Pie was usually very young for his level. Ryan Theriot never put up really, really good numbers and was often very old for his level. Ryan Theriot has done nothing in the major leagues to have an everyday job handed to him, while guys like Pie and Cedeno have proven, based on their minor league numbers, that they deserve a shot.

 

To be fair, Cedeno had a pretty good shot in 2006.

 

But unless he gets shipped of to Baltimore, I think you'll see him again when Theriot continues to play the way he did for most of last season - badly. Ryan just isn't that talented and was exposed. I don't see that changing.

 

Pie is a different story. They just need to give him the job and let him try and hold it for most of the year.

 

To be fair, kid was 23 in '06. Not a long list of ballplayers that play well in the majors at 23. Longer list of players that don't play well in the majors at 23 but turn out to be average or better players.

[WTFCUBS]

edit

[Rob]

At any rate, we need to be operating under the assumption that Ryan Theriot is going to be horrible... because he's done absolutely nothing in his entire career to suggest anything to the contrary.

 

If anybody thinks that Theriot is even half the hitter that Pie is right now, they need to pay a lot more attention to what minor league stats mean. (Hint, they are very instructive)

 

While Felix Pie has really crushed the ball in the major leagues, right? So I guess it's safe to assume he'll be horrible, too?

 

As I said in another post, when the Chicago Cubs start playing the Omaha Royals - let me know. Cedeno raked in the minor leagues - why isn't he starting in front of Theriot? His minor league stats suggest he should...

 

SAMPLE SIZE. A couple hundred sporadic at bats in the majors at age 22 doesn't exactly mean a whole lot in projecting a player from that point onward. If you can't properly discount those numbers, you'd actually be better off forgetting it happened at all rather than taking it into account.

 

Oh, and Cedeno should be starting in front of Theriot. Ryan Theriot is the worst hitter on our ballclub (including bench players), and a mediocre defensive SS at his best. Theriot doesn't even have a chance to be anywhere close to decent in full time play... Cedeno might not be a great bet to, but he at least has a chance. And we all know that baseball is all about playing the percentages.

[XZero771679666304]

 

To be fair, Cedeno had a pretty good shot in 2006.

 

But unless he gets shipped of to Baltimore, I think you'll see him again when Theriot continues to play the way he did for most of last season - badly. Ryan just isn't that talented and was exposed. I don't see that changing.

 

Pie is a different story. They just need to give him the job and let him try and hold it for most of the year.

 

To be fair, kid was 23 in '06. Not a long list of ballplayers that play well in the majors at 23. Longer list of players that don't play well in the majors at 23 but turn out to be average or better players.

 

Hey, I'm all for starting Cedeno over Theriot. I wasn't saying Cedeno isn't going to be any good, just that he did in fact get a shot, albeit at a young age.

 

I'm not confident Ronny will be that good, but I am confident he would be better than Theriot given the chance.

[Tracer Bullet]

 

To be fair, Cedeno had a pretty good shot in 2006.

 

But unless he gets shipped of to Baltimore, I think you'll see him again when Theriot continues to play the way he did for most of last season - badly. Ryan just isn't that talented and was exposed. I don't see that changing.

 

Pie is a different story. They just need to give him the job and let him try and hold it for most of the year.

 

To be fair, kid was 23 in '06. Not a long list of ballplayers that play well in the majors at 23. Longer list of players that don't play well in the majors at 23 but turn out to be average or better players.

 

Hey, I'm all for starting Cedeno over Theriot. I wasn't saying Cedeno isn't going to be any good, just that he did in fact get a shot, albeit at a young age.

 

I'm not confident Ronny will be that good, but I am confident he would be better than Theriot given the chance.

 

I think you and I just disagree on whether a year's worth of ABs at 23 is really a "shot." If you made every ballplayer face ML pitching at age 23 and determined whether to play them 2 years later based on that year alone, you'd make a lot of bad decisions.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think you and I just disagree on whether a year's worth of ABs at 23 is really a "shot." If you made every ballplayer face ML pitching at age 23 and determined whether to play them 2 years later based on that year alone, you'd make a lot of bad decisions.

 

I definitely think that was worth being called "a shot". The problem is if you let that be his only shot.

[bring stone back]

At any rate, we need to be operating under the assumption that Ryan Theriot is going to be horrible... because he's done absolutely nothing in his entire career to suggest anything to the contrary.

 

If anybody thinks that Theriot is even half the hitter that Pie is right now, they need to pay a lot more attention to what minor league stats mean. (Hint, they are very instructive)

 

While Felix Pie has really crushed the ball in the major leagues, right? So I guess it's safe to assume he'll be horrible, too?

 

As I said in another post, when the Chicago Cubs start playing the Omaha Royals - let me know. Cedeno raked in the minor leagues - why isn't he starting in front of Theriot? His minor league stats suggest he should...

your post makes my brain hurt

 

The arrogance by many on this board makes mine hurt.

 

Pie and Cedeno have better minor league numbers - therefore it will just automatically translate to success at the major league despite what their past performances have shown us. I know so because numbers support my claim - despite what the actual play on the field suggests. Pay no attention to that....

Arrogance? There was nothing about your post that made sense. Pie and Cedeno have put up really, really good numbers in the minor leagues, and Pie was usually very young for his level. Ryan Theriot never put up really, really good numbers and was often very old for his level. Ryan Theriot has done nothing in the major leagues to have an everyday job handed to him, while guys like Pie and Cedeno have proven, based on their minor league numbers, that they deserve a shot.

 

What I said was just because Pie and Cedeno did well in the minor leagues it doesn't always equate to success at the major league level. How hard was that to understand?

 

Many here want to see Cedeno start in front of Theriot based on potential and minor league performance while forgetting the fact Cedeno failed miserably when given the opportunity at the major league level. Theriot was not good, true, but he was/is better then Cedeno.

 

Many are so quick to bash Theriot's defense, his lack of power, etc. Funny - they're all better than what Cedeno has done in the major leagues...if Theriot sucks that bad how would you describe Cedeno?

 

Yes, I thought it was stupid Hendry didn't make improving shorstop priority #1 in the offseason but Theriot is the best we got. I wish that wasn't the case and we had another viable option but it sure isn't Ronny Cedeno.

[Tyrant]

I think you and I just disagree on whether a year's worth of ABs at 23 is really a "shot." If you made every ballplayer face ML pitching at age 23 and determined whether to play them 2 years later based on that year alone, you'd make a lot of bad decisions.

 

This is all true. But also, it'd be nice if the hypothetical 23-year-old showed some promise when they got their "shot." Cedeno didn't show anything like this -- he was abysmal in 2005. He looked clueless at the plate.

 

I'm not terribly excited about a shortstop with no strike zone judgment, an erratic arm and a total lack of baseball instincts.

[Rob]

At any rate, we need to be operating under the assumption that Ryan Theriot is going to be horrible... because he's done absolutely nothing in his entire career to suggest anything to the contrary.

 

If anybody thinks that Theriot is even half the hitter that Pie is right now, they need to pay a lot more attention to what minor league stats mean. (Hint, they are very instructive)

 

While Felix Pie has really crushed the ball in the major leagues, right? So I guess it's safe to assume he'll be horrible, too?

 

As I said in another post, when the Chicago Cubs start playing the Omaha Royals - let me know. Cedeno raked in the minor leagues - why isn't he starting in front of Theriot? His minor league stats suggest he should...

your post makes my brain hurt

 

The arrogance by many on this board makes mine hurt.

 

Pie and Cedeno have better minor league numbers - therefore it will just automatically translate to success at the major league despite what their past performances have shown us. I know so because numbers support my claim - despite what the actual play on the field suggests. Pay no attention to that....

Arrogance? There was nothing about your post that made sense. Pie and Cedeno have put up really, really good numbers in the minor leagues, and Pie was usually very young for his level. Ryan Theriot never put up really, really good numbers and was often very old for his level. Ryan Theriot has done nothing in the major leagues to have an everyday job handed to him, while guys like Pie and Cedeno have proven, based on their minor league numbers, that they deserve a shot.

 

What I said was just because Pie and Cedeno did well in the minor leagues it doesn't always equate to success at the major league level. How hard was that to understand?

 

Many here want to see Cedeno start in front of Theriot based on potential and minor league performance while forgetting the fact Cedeno failed miserably when given the opportunity at the major league level. Theriot was not good, true, but he was/is better then Cedeno.

 

Many are so quick to bash Theriot's defense, his lack of power, etc. Funny - they're all better than what Cedeno has done in the major leagues...if Theriot sucks that bad how would you describe Cedeno?

 

Yes, I thought it was stupid Hendry didn't make improving shorstop priority #1 in the offseason but Theriot is the best we got. I wish that wasn't the case and we had another viable option but it sure isn't Ronny Cedeno.

 

Did you just wake up one morning and arbitrarily decide that since the minor leagues and the major leagues aren't the exact same thing, that you can't compare them at all? Because we certainly can.

 

Age 21:

Cedeno - .279/.328/.401 at AA

Theriot - .204/.341/.252 at A+

 

Age 22:

Cedeno - .355/.403/.518 at AAA, .300/.356/.375 at MLB (80 AB)

Theriot - .252/.335/.313 at A

 

Age 23:

Cedeno - .245/.271/.339 at MLB

Theriot - .259/.353/.318 at A, .236/.351/.270 at AA

 

Age 24:

Cedeno - .359/.422/.537 at AAA, .203/.231/.392 at MLB (74 AB)

Theriot - .273/.367/.342 at A+

 

Age 25:

Cedeno - 2008

Theriot - .304/.365/.391 at AA, .154/.214/.231 at MLB (13 AB)

 

Age 26:

Cedeno - 2009

Theriot - .304/.367/.379 at AAA, .328/.412/.522 at MLB

 

Age 27:

Cedeno - 2010

Theriot - .266/.326/.346 at MLB

 

At every age in their respective careers, Cedeno has been playing at a higher level than Theriot... and with the exception of his bad year in the majors, Cedeno has been significantly better despite playing at much higher levels. (Though one can reasonably assume that if you were to jump Theriot to the majors at age 23 with his mediocre lines split between A and AA, that he would have performed significantly worse than Cedeno did... yuck).

 

Ryan Theriot seems like a real nice guy. But he's a pretty abysmal ballplayer... We wouldn't stand to lose much if we played Cedeno and he imploded... but we could gain a whole lot if Cedeno played up to even a fraction of his potential. Keeping Theriot in there as the starting SS is the sort of risk-averse move that is the reason guys baseball has guys like Dusty Baker still in this league... "proven" guys. (Even if they only have proven to be quite bad)

[BigbadB]

I think the strongest argument for Cedeno is that he was fast tracked to the majors and just didn't get the quality development time he realistically needed.

 

Cedeno got 384 at bats at AA and 245 at bats at AAA before they brought him up to the big club in '06.

 

I'm certainly not saying Cedeno will be an above average major league SS. All I'm saying is we just don't know what we really have in Cedeno. Until we know what we have in Cedeno, I'd like to see him get another chance. And it's not like you have to kick Theriot off the team to make that happen. If Cedeno falters this year, then replace him with Theriot.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think the strongest argument for Cedeno is that he was fast tracked to the majors and just didn't get the quality development time he realistically needed.

 

Cedeno got 384 at bats at AA and 245 at bats at AAA before they brought him up to the big club in '06.

 

I'm certainly not saying Cedeno will be an above average major league SS. All I'm saying is we just don't know what we really have in Cedeno. Until we know what we have in Cedeno, I'd like to see him get another chance. And it's not like you have to kick Theriot off the team to make that happen. If Cedeno falters this year, then replace him with Theriot.

 

If Cedeno falters, replace him with somebody else next year, and keep Theriot on the bench.