More lineup changes coming?

[UK1679666180]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2008/news/story?id=3309506

 

No surprises: (I'm assuming 7 in the pen early on)

 

Z

Lilly

Dempster

Hill

Marquis

 

Theriot

Soriano

Lee

Ramirez

Fukudome

Derosa

Soto

Pie

 

 

 

Lieber

Marshall/Piggy (Eyre DL)

Hart

Wuertz

Marmol

Howry

Wood

[CuseCubFan69]

I think the strongest argument for Cedeno is that he was fast tracked to the majors and just didn't get the quality development time he realistically needed.

 

Cedeno got 384 at bats at AA and 245 at bats at AAA before they brought him up to the big club in '06.

 

I'm certainly not saying Cedeno will be an above average major league SS. All I'm saying is we just don't know what we really have in Cedeno. Until we know what we have in Cedeno, I'd like to see him get another chance. And it's not like you have to kick Theriot off the team to make that happen. If Cedeno falters this year, then replace him with Theriot.

 

If Cedeno falters, replace him with somebody else next year, and keep Theriot on the bench.

 

I wonder if Cedeno is doing something/not doing something that really angers Lou. I've read a few times where they were disappointed in his work ethic and other things he's done that are not something you do when you're a young guy trying to make a team. Plus, he's a bonehead on the bases.

[javy knows my name]

I think the strongest argument for Cedeno is that he was fast tracked to the majors and just didn't get the quality development time he realistically needed.

 

Cedeno got 384 at bats at AA and 245 at bats at AAA before they brought him up to the big club in '06.

 

I'm certainly not saying Cedeno will be an above average major league SS. All I'm saying is we just don't know what we really have in Cedeno. Until we know what we have in Cedeno, I'd like to see him get another chance. And it's not like you have to kick Theriot off the team to make that happen. If Cedeno falters this year, then replace him with Theriot.

 

If Cedeno falters, replace him with somebody else next year, and keep Theriot on the bench.

 

I wonder if Cedeno is doing something/not doing something that really angers Lou. I've read a few times where they were disappointed in his work ethic and other things he's done that are not something you do when you're a young guy trying to make a team. Plus, he's a bonehead on the bases.

I'm thinking he doesn't catch the damn ball

[CuseCubFan69]

I think the strongest argument for Cedeno is that he was fast tracked to the majors and just didn't get the quality development time he realistically needed.

 

Cedeno got 384 at bats at AA and 245 at bats at AAA before they brought him up to the big club in '06.

 

I'm certainly not saying Cedeno will be an above average major league SS. All I'm saying is we just don't know what we really have in Cedeno. Until we know what we have in Cedeno, I'd like to see him get another chance. And it's not like you have to kick Theriot off the team to make that happen. If Cedeno falters this year, then replace him with Theriot.

 

If Cedeno falters, replace him with somebody else next year, and keep Theriot on the bench.

 

I wonder if Cedeno is doing something/not doing something that really angers Lou. I've read a few times where they were disappointed in his work ethic and other things he's done that are not something you do when you're a young guy trying to make a team. Plus, he's a bonehead on the bases.

I'm thinking he doesn't catch the damn ball

 

Has he been misplaying the ball this spring?

[javy knows my name]

I think the strongest argument for Cedeno is that he was fast tracked to the majors and just didn't get the quality development time he realistically needed.

 

Cedeno got 384 at bats at AA and 245 at bats at AAA before they brought him up to the big club in '06.

 

I'm certainly not saying Cedeno will be an above average major league SS. All I'm saying is we just don't know what we really have in Cedeno. Until we know what we have in Cedeno, I'd like to see him get another chance. And it's not like you have to kick Theriot off the team to make that happen. If Cedeno falters this year, then replace him with Theriot.

 

If Cedeno falters, replace him with somebody else next year, and keep Theriot on the bench.

 

I wonder if Cedeno is doing something/not doing something that really angers Lou. I've read a few times where they were disappointed in his work ethic and other things he's done that are not something you do when you're a young guy trying to make a team. Plus, he's a bonehead on the bases.

I'm thinking he doesn't catch the damn ball

 

Has he been misplaying the ball this spring?

I was referencing Lou's tirade from last year regarding mainly Murton. Can't speak for Cedeno's spring performance, but despite his good range he has been a bit error-prone over his career.

[Tracer Bullet]

I think you and I just disagree on whether a year's worth of ABs at 23 is really a "shot." If you made every ballplayer face ML pitching at age 23 and determined whether to play them 2 years later based on that year alone, you'd make a lot of bad decisions.

 

This is all true. But also, it'd be nice if the hypothetical 23-year-old showed some promise when they got their "shot." Cedeno didn't show anything like this -- he was abysmal in 2005. He looked clueless at the plate.

 

I'm not terribly excited about a shortstop with no strike zone judgment, an erratic arm and a total lack of baseball instincts.

 

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

[Tracer Bullet]

I think you and I just disagree on whether a year's worth of ABs at 23 is really a "shot." If you made every ballplayer face ML pitching at age 23 and determined whether to play them 2 years later based on that year alone, you'd make a lot of bad decisions.

 

I definitely think that was worth being called "a shot". The problem is if you let that be his only shot.

 

I was going to add a qualifier like "fair shot" or something, but whatever. I don't think you judge a guy by how he hit ML pitching at age 23. If you call it a "shot" or not is semantics. I think you and I agree that he deserves a chance to show what he can do at the ML level again. Certainly over Theriot.

[dew1679666265]

I think the strongest argument for Cedeno is that he was fast tracked to the majors and just didn't get the quality development time he realistically needed.

 

Cedeno got 384 at bats at AA and 245 at bats at AAA before they brought him up to the big club in '06.

 

I'm certainly not saying Cedeno will be an above average major league SS. All I'm saying is we just don't know what we really have in Cedeno. Until we know what we have in Cedeno, I'd like to see him get another chance. And it's not like you have to kick Theriot off the team to make that happen. If Cedeno falters this year, then replace him with Theriot.

 

If Cedeno falters, replace him with somebody else next year, and keep Theriot on the bench.

 

I wonder if Cedeno is doing something/not doing something that really angers Lou. I've read a few times where they were disappointed in his work ethic and other things he's done that are not something you do when you're a young guy trying to make a team. Plus, he's a bonehead on the bases.

I'm thinking he doesn't catch the damn ball

 

Has he been misplaying the ball this spring?

I was referencing Lou's tirade from last year regarding mainly Murton. Can't speak for Cedeno's spring performance, but despite his good range he has been a bit error-prone over his career.

 

As I recall, most of Cedeno's errors have been a result of bad throws - not really an inability to catch the ball.

 

And, I was thinking the "catch the ball" tirade by Lou last year was over Barrett's struggles - I could be remembering that wrong though.

[Tyrant]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

[Wheelimus]

Yeah, Jason Dubois taught me to always take PCL stats with a grain of salt. In fact, I wish Iowa could move to a more balanced league.

[Tracer Bullet]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

 

Interesting

[Tyrant]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

 

Interesting

 

Theriot sucks in any league. Ronny Cedeno sucks in the Majors.

 

Neither help the Cubs.

[Tracer Bullet]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

 

Interesting

 

Theriot sucks in any league. Ronny Cedeno sucks in the Majors.

 

Neither help the Cubs.

 

That's great. Theriot sucks at every level, including the majors. So the fact that he didn't hit better at Iowa than elsewhere is irrelevant. Cedeno hit well in rookie ball, very bad in A ball, below average at AA and outstanding at AAA and bad in the majors at age 23. So his stats at Iowa should be disregarded because "everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL" - except people that suck, then they suck in the PCL too - except people who suck at some levels and are great at others, then they suck and their numbers are inflated...

 

I'm lost. How do we know when to consider AAA numbers?

[Tyrant]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

 

Interesting

 

Theriot sucks in any league. Ronny Cedeno sucks in the Majors.

 

Neither help the Cubs.

 

That's great. Theriot sucks at every level, including the majors. So the fact that he didn't hit better at Iowa than elsewhere is irrelevant. Cedeno hit well in rookie ball, very bad in A ball, below average at AA and outstanding at AAA and bad in the majors at age 23. So his stats at Iowa should be disregarded because "everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL" - except people that suck, then they suck in the PCL too - except people who suck at some levels and are great at others, then they suck and their numbers are inflated...

 

I'm lost. How do we know when to consider AAA numbers?

 

When Ronny Cedeno doesn't suck.

[Tracer Bullet]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

 

Interesting

 

Theriot sucks in any league. Ronny Cedeno sucks in the Majors.

 

Neither help the Cubs.

 

That's great. Theriot sucks at every level, including the majors. So the fact that he didn't hit better at Iowa than elsewhere is irrelevant. Cedeno hit well in rookie ball, very bad in A ball, below average at AA and outstanding at AAA and bad in the majors at age 23. So his stats at Iowa should be disregarded because "everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL" - except people that suck, then they suck in the PCL too - except people who suck at some levels and are great at others, then they suck and their numbers are inflated...

 

I'm lost. How do we know when to consider AAA numbers?

 

When Ronny Cedeno doesn't suck.

 

:roll:

 

That was a fruitful little discussion.

[Tyrant]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

 

Interesting

 

Theriot sucks in any league. Ronny Cedeno sucks in the Majors.

 

Neither help the Cubs.

 

That's great. Theriot sucks at every level, including the majors. So the fact that he didn't hit better at Iowa than elsewhere is irrelevant. Cedeno hit well in rookie ball, very bad in A ball, below average at AA and outstanding at AAA and bad in the majors at age 23. So his stats at Iowa should be disregarded because "everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL" - except people that suck, then they suck in the PCL too - except people who suck at some levels and are great at others, then they suck and their numbers are inflated...

 

I'm lost. How do we know when to consider AAA numbers?

 

When Ronny Cedeno doesn't suck.

 

:roll:

 

That was a fruitful little discussion.

 

Speaking of fruitful... an eyeroll! .

 

I don't know what there is to discuss. I said lots of players' numbers in the PCL are inflated, you showed me that Ryan Theriot's weren't. I don't see what that proved, because I'm still right: Lots of PCL numbers are inflated. Ronny would appear to be a case.

 

I don't care that Cedeno has great minor league numbers, because he's had a lot of major-league at bats to show something. He hasn't shown anything. Major league pitchers keep getting him out with breaking balls and pitches out of the zone. He hasn't adapted. Seeing as how he's one of the dumbest baseball players I've ever seen, I don't see it changing.

 

I know everyone around here loves Ronny, and good for all of you. I'm glad. But I'm not convinced, and I see no reason to argue about it any further.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I don't know what there is to discuss. I said lots of players' numbers in the PCL are inflated, you showed me that Ryan Theriot's weren't. I don't see what that proved, because I'm still right: Lots of PCL numbers are inflated. Ronny would appear to be a case.

 

I don't care that Cedeno has great minor league numbers, because he's had a lot of major-league at bats to show something. He hasn't shown anything.

what has Ryan Theriot shown? absolutely nothing, so why not give a younger player who has put up terrific numbers at AAA a chance to improve the position? we still don't know what Ronny Cedeno will provide as he matures at the major league level. we know exactly what we're getting with Theriot. nobody is saying Ronny is the next ARod, he's an alternative at a black hole that provides potential for upgrade.

[jersey cubs fan]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

 

Interesting

 

Theriot sucks in any league. Ronny Cedeno sucks in the Majors.

 

Neither help the Cubs.

 

That's great. Theriot sucks at every level, including the majors. So the fact that he didn't hit better at Iowa than elsewhere is irrelevant. Cedeno hit well in rookie ball, very bad in A ball, below average at AA and outstanding at AAA and bad in the majors at age 23. So his stats at Iowa should be disregarded because "everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL" - except people that suck, then they suck in the PCL too - except people who suck at some levels and are great at others, then they suck and their numbers are inflated...

 

I'm lost. How do we know when to consider AAA numbers?

 

When Ronny Cedeno doesn't suck.

 

:roll:

 

That was a fruitful little discussion.

 

Speaking of fruitful... an eyeroll! .

 

I don't know what there is to discuss. I said lots of players' numbers in the PCL are inflated, you showed me that Ryan Theriot's weren't. I don't see what that proved, because I'm still right: Lots of PCL numbers are inflated. Ronny would appear to be a case.

 

I don't care that Cedeno has great minor league numbers, because he's had a lot of major-league at bats to show something. He hasn't shown anything. Major league pitchers keep getting him out with breaking balls and pitches out of the zone. He hasn't adapted. Seeing as how he's one of the dumbest baseball players I've ever seen, I don't see it changing.

 

I know everyone around here loves Ronny, and good for all of you. I'm glad. But I'm not convinced, and I see no reason to argue about it any further.

 

There's a difference between saying everyone puts up huge numbers and a lot of numbers are inflated.

 

Ronny has a lot of disappointing major league at bats. But not enough to completely write him off. I have severe doubts about Ronny's future, but he's done more than enough in his professional baseball career to warrent further opportunities, especially when Ryan Theriot is the guy in front of him.

[Tracer Bullet]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

 

Interesting

 

Theriot sucks in any league. Ronny Cedeno sucks in the Majors.

 

Neither help the Cubs.

 

That's great. Theriot sucks at every level, including the majors. So the fact that he didn't hit better at Iowa than elsewhere is irrelevant. Cedeno hit well in rookie ball, very bad in A ball, below average at AA and outstanding at AAA and bad in the majors at age 23. So his stats at Iowa should be disregarded because "everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL" - except people that suck, then they suck in the PCL too - except people who suck at some levels and are great at others, then they suck and their numbers are inflated...

 

I'm lost. How do we know when to consider AAA numbers?

 

When Ronny Cedeno doesn't suck.

 

:roll:

 

That was a fruitful little discussion.

 

Speaking of fruitful... an eyeroll! .

 

I don't know what there is to discuss. I said lots of players' numbers in the PCL are inflated, you showed me that Ryan Theriot's weren't. I don't see what that proved, because I'm still right: Lots of PCL numbers are inflated. Ronny would appear to be a case.

 

I don't care that Cedeno has great minor league numbers, because he's had a lot of major-league at bats to show something. He hasn't shown anything. Major league pitchers keep getting him out with breaking balls and pitches out of the zone. He hasn't adapted. Seeing as how he's one of the dumbest baseball players I've ever seen, I don't see it changing.

 

I know everyone around here loves Ronny, and good for all of you. I'm glad. But I'm not convinced, and I see no reason to argue about it any further.

 

I generally hate the eyeroll, but it was well deserved.

 

You were right? You said everyone's numbers are inflated in the PCL, I showed an example of someone who is relevant to this discussion whose numbers were not inflated in the PCL. There are several others out there. Obviously, you didn't mean literally everyone, but the fact that some guys have inflated numbers in the PCL doesn't automatically negate everyone's production there.

 

It makes no sense whatsoever to ignore all PCL numbers because it's a hitter-friendly league. Yes, you take them with a grain of salt. But 2 seasons of .900+ OPS from a SS at ages 22 and 24 is freaking insane. Certainly warrants a look over the likes of Theriot.

[UBlink]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

 

Look at PCL stats from 2007, sort by OPS, and count the number of Shortstops ranked above Cedeno.

 

Link

[inari]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

 

Look at PCL stats from 2007, sort by OPS, and count the number of Shortstops ranked above Cedeno.

 

Link

 

But, but... there aren't any!

[Tyrant]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

 

Look at PCL stats from 2007, sort by OPS, and count the number of Shortstops ranked above Cedeno.

 

Link

 

Go here, and look at what Ronny Cedeno has done against major league pitching:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cedenro02.shtml

[David]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

 

Look at PCL stats from 2007, sort by OPS, and count the number of Shortstops ranked above Cedeno.

 

Link

 

Go here, and look at what Ronny Cedeno has done against major league pitching:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cedenro02.shtml

 

With the vast majority of his ABs at age 23?

 

Yea, might as well give up on the guy. Real smart.

 

I still heart your av, though.

[UBlink]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

 

Look at PCL stats from 2007, sort by OPS, and count the number of Shortstops ranked above Cedeno.

 

Link

 

Go here, and look at what Ronny Cedeno has done against major league pitching:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cedenro02.shtml

 

I was responding to the bolded comment above that makes no mention of performance against major league pitching.

[BigbadB]

who, at ages 22 and 24, put up OPS of .921 and .959 in AAA? Yeah, Cedeno might suck in the majors, but man I'd like to find out rather than put Theriot out there again.

 

Everyone puts up huge numbers in the PCL. Big deal.

 

Look at PCL stats from 2007, sort by OPS, and count the number of Shortstops ranked above Cedeno.

 

Link

 

Go here, and look at what Ronny Cedeno has done against major league pitching:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cedenro02.shtml

 

Do you realize how extensive the list is of players who basically flopped in their first season in the majors at the age of 23? Couple that in with less than a season's worth of at bats between AA and AAA before his major league call up, and all we REALLY know about Cedeno is that he just wasn't ready.

 

BJ Upton posted a 56 OPS+ in 2006 in the majors and last year posted a 136 OPS+.

 

That's the equivilent of Felix Pie's '07 season for his '06 numbers and Curtis Granderson's '07 season for his '07' numbers.

 

Granted, Ronny Cedeno isn't BJ Upton. However, if a guy can hit as poorly as Pie did last year and improve so much in his next stint to the extent of matching Curtis Granderson's production, why would you just settle for the guy who is guaranteed to give you very generic numbers and not take a chance on a guy who has the potential to put up much better numbers than that.

 

Besides that, Theriot would likely excel much better as a reserve utility infielder much moreso than a young and still developing Ronny Cedeno. I'd rate Cedeno getting 10-15 at bats a month about as worthless as anything else the Cubs could do with him, which is basically what they did to him last year in the big leagues.