We Want a Pitcher, Not a Belly Itcher...

[David]

BTW, isn't Guzman out for like 10 years?

[badnews]

Could someone tell me how Kei Igawa is any better than Jason Marquis or Ryan Dempster or Sean Marshall?

 

I guess since he's never pitched for the Cubs, he must be better.

 

Because he's Japanese.

 

Or because he pitches in the AL and it means he'd be better in the NL. Or everyone is sad we missed out the first time and now we want in on Kazuhisa Ishii Mach 2.

[Athletics36]

I'm exhausted hearing about the Mitchell report, Prior and Roberts.

 

Can I discuss another topic? I can't sleep at night thinking that two-fifths of the Cubs projected starting rotation for 2008 will come out of this pool of players: Dempster, Marquis, Marshall, Gallagher, Guzman and Samardjiza.

 

How do we acquire a solid, right-handed #3 to fit in between Lilly and Hill? I've heard names like Greinke and Blanton could become available. What would it take to get them? Who else is out there?

 

 

Hoops

Its amazing that all you fans freak out about SP every year and don't want to give a chance to any of the players coming up through the system!!!!! Why have a system if all you fans want to do is trade them for another player and not give them their chance. Lets just keep spending money and were did that get you last year, yes you won the Central but thats all you were going to do. Do you not look at the other teams like the Rockies, Diamondbacks and a few others that yes they have their established pitchers but they are also working players they have developed in their rotations.

[Backtobanks]

Does Greinke still want to be a reliever? I noticed he started at the end of this year after moving to the bullpen. I'd wouldn't mind Greinke. Cheap, young, loads of upside. Probably would take a bit to get him, but he'd be a nice addition whether it'd be to the rotation or the bullpen

 

I mentioned expanding the trade talk in the Murton for Teahan to include Greinke. I like the idea of getting a young pitcher that has some experience that might reach full potential under Rothschild. What about Santana from the Angels? He should be cheap and doesn't seem to fit in their plans.

[JeffH]

I'm exhausted hearing about the Mitchell report, Prior and Roberts.

 

Can I discuss another topic? I can't sleep at night thinking that two-fifths of the Cubs projected starting rotation for 2008 will come out of this pool of players: Dempster, Marquis, Marshall, Gallagher, Guzman and Samardjiza.

 

How do we acquire a solid, right-handed #3 to fit in between Lilly and Hill? I've heard names like Greinke and Blanton could become available. What would it take to get them? Who else is out there?

 

 

Hoops

Its amazing that all you fans freak out about SP every year and don't want to give a chance to any of the players coming up through the system!!!!! Why have a system if all you fans want to do is trade them for another player and not give them their chance. Lets just keep spending money and were did that get you last year, yes you won the Central but thats all you were going to do. Do you not look at the other teams like the Rockies, Diamondbacks and a few others that yes they have their established pitchers but they are also working players they have developed in their rotations.

 

We've already given Marshall a chance. We like him OK, but we realize what he is and we'd like an upgrade.

 

As far as Sean is concerned, I think most of us have already said our goodbyes to him and wished him well in Baltimore...

Edited December 14, 2007 by JeffH

[nilodnayr]

FYI there's no way Blanton is dealt forthr packages described in this thread. Nor will Santana come for anything close to cheap. I even think you all underestimate how much Greinke would cost. Royals have no reason to deal him.

[badnews]

I even think you all underestimate how much Greinke would cost.

 

Hey, don't lump me in with "you all," I said as much.

Edited December 15, 2007 by badnews

[St.Paul Cub]

I would think an offer similar to what's been discussed for Roberts could get Blanton. Murton/Marshall/Patterson. I think Blanton would help us more than Roberts. I also agree with you about our current rotation.

 

I'd rather target someone like Blanton or Burnett over Roberts as well. If Murton, Marshall, and Patterson got us Blanton or Burnett, I'd be fine with the rotation as long as it doesn't include Dempster.

[UK1679666180]

Its amazing that all you fans freak out about SP every year and don't want to give a chance to any of the players coming up through the system!!!!! Why have a system if all you fans want to do is trade them for another player and not give them their chance. Lets just keep spending money and were did that get you last year, yes you won the Central but thats all you were going to do. Do you not look at the other teams like the Rockies, Diamondbacks and a few others that yes they have their established pitchers but they are also working players they have developed in their rotations.

 

Agreed, given how much they have spent on the core of this team and even with the increased payroll they will need to have production from younger, less proven, less expensive players.

 

I would have no problem given Marshall a spot in the rotation, I think the Cubs have to handle him better. He's not a strong pitcher by any stretch of the imagination, he's been blessed with long arms, quick hips, and a strong arm. Since he isn't physically strong, they have to put him on Maddux-like pitch counts to ensure he can go 30+ starts and hopefully not wear down. I'd like to see him get some rest during the year as well, maybe skip a start if he does show usually high signs of fatigue.

 

As far as the entire group of possible starters, I think between Marquis, Marshall, Gallagher, & Hart, there will be enough there to justify going with them over bringing in someone else expensive in what it takes to acquire him and/or salary.

[craig]

I'd really like to pick up a solid starter. Burnett or Haren or Blanton, somebody like that I'd love to get. Wouldn't need to be an ace possible, as Burnett and Haren or Greinke could be. A solid safe #3 type guy would be invaluable. But rotation guys are really expensive. I think we're underestimating how stiff the cost would be. I don't think Gallagher/Murton or the alleged Roberts package gets you what you want in terms of rotation pitchers. I do imagine that Burnett's injury history; gossiped problems getting along with teammates and management; and the fact that he can declare free agency after the season might make him much more available that some of the other names.

 

I'm not too keen on lightning-in-a-bottle rehab Clement/Colon/Garcia/Igawa types. If they are such long shots that a non-guaranteed minor-league deal with 2nd year option will do, ala Dempster/Williamson, or ala what Prior wouldn't do, that would be OK. But I don't want to give a guaranteed contract or commit significant guaranteed money (>$2) to guys like this. I don't want some bad-armed rehab guy wasting a roster spot or wasting starts apart from merit. And if any of these guys get guaranteed deals of any magnitude, they'll tend to get roster spots even if guys like Marshall or Hart or Petrick could pitch more effectively.

 

Depth is nice, if you can stash the extras at Iowa and if you can actually use the best guys on merit for the cubs. But if guaranteed contract means that some guys stay on Cubs based on contract rather than merit, that's bad.

 

Several other thoughts:

1. I suspect that were they to trade for a salaried pitcher, they'd really like to be able to include Marquis in the package. Easier said than done, I'm sure.

2. Hoops, in your original list, you omitted Hart. Including Samardz and Guzman without hart is misleading. Lou has already stated that marshall, Hart, and Gallagher are all scheduled to be worked as starters in camp, or at least in the front part of camp.

3. Personally I think that Gallagher, Marshall, and Hart provides a reasonable trio of backup options for Dempster/Marquis. Marshall has shown that when healthy he's OK, if limited. Hart's minor-league numbers over the last three months were very competitive. And Gallagher has a shot to be big-league competitive also. Not sure you can necessarily have your 8th man be more qualified than Gallagher or Marshall. My concern is that they may be 5 guys who will all interchangeably go 5.25 ERA. But, we'll see. But I think management may prefer to get a more proven starter, but is quite willing, perhaps justifiably, to go with the kids if they need to.

4. My take is that Hendry/Lou are more interested in Dempster than either the board is or than they are interested in Marquis. For example, if you could get the same player in return for a package of prospects and either Dempster or Marquis, I think Lou/Hendry would definitely elect to keep Dempster and trade Marquis rather than vice versa.

5. Insurance will be needed. Right now we have 3 insurance guys in Marshall, hart, and Gallagher. I think that Hendry feels this is a source of value for trades, and that any significant trade would include at least one of these three. Survive with two insurance guys instead of three, that's OK. But I would have a hard time trading two of those three guys away in trades for position players (2B/SS/CF?). I'd think you'd like to have depth through at least 7. Obviously it would be OK if we gave one for Roberts and then another for some other rotation pitcher; that could still leave the surviving young guy and Marquis as your 6/7 guys. But I don't really want to shorten the rotation options so that we've got only one of Marshall/hart/Gallagher left, and our 7th rotation guy is Holliman or Les Walrond or Jeff Samardzija. (Unless management likes Holliman a lot better than I do.)

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm exhausted hearing about the Mitchell report, Prior and Roberts.

 

Can I discuss another topic? I can't sleep at night thinking that two-fifths of the Cubs projected starting rotation for 2008 will come out of this pool of players: Dempster, Marquis, Marshall, Gallagher, Guzman and Samardjiza.

 

How do we acquire a solid, right-handed #3 to fit in between Lilly and Hill? I've heard names like Greinke and Blanton could become available. What would it take to get them? Who else is out there?

 

 

Hoops

 

I have very little interest in acquiring another pitcher. If a nice one comes along at a reasonable price, fine and dandy.

 

But why are you suggesting they need to slot somebody ahead of Rich Hill? I don't believe I've read a name yet who would be better than him.

[jersey cubs fan]

Its amazing that all you fans freak out about SP every year and don't want to give a chance to any of the players coming up through the system!!!!! Why have a system if all you fans want to do is trade them for another player and not give them their chance. Lets just keep spending money and were did that get you last year, yes you won the Central but thats all you were going to do. Do you not look at the other teams like the Rockies, Diamondbacks and a few others that yes they have their established pitchers but they are also working players they have developed in their rotations.

 

Agreed, given how much they have spent on the core of this team and even with the increased payroll they will need to have production from younger, less proven, less expensive players.

 

I would have no problem given Marshall a spot in the rotation, I think the Cubs have to handle him better. He's not a strong pitcher by any stretch of the imagination, he's been blessed with long arms, quick hips, and a strong arm. Since he isn't physically strong, they have to put him on Maddux-like pitch counts to ensure he can go 30+ starts and hopefully not wear down. I'd like to see him get some rest during the year as well, maybe skip a start if he does show usually high signs of fatigue.

 

As far as the entire group of possible starters, I think between Marquis, Marshall, Gallagher, & Hart, there will be enough there to justify going with them over bringing in someone else expensive in what it takes to acquire him and/or salary.

 

Double agreed.

[Lefty]

BTW, isn't Guzman out for like 10 years?

 

Yeah, but he's halfway through that.

[Lefty]

 

But why are you suggesting they need to slot somebody ahead of Rich Hill? I don't believe I've read a name yet who would be better than him.

 

I think the assumption is that the lefties have to be split up. Not that the #3 would be better than Hill.

[Backtobanks]

I think another strike against Marshall is that he's a lefty. I don't think Lou wants 3 lefties in the rotation again.

[craig]

I think another strike against Marshall is that he's a lefty. I don't think Lou wants 3 lefties in the rotation again.

 

Agree. I suspect that if Lou could choose, he'd rather deal Marshall than either Gallagher or hart.

 

I get the impression that Hendry feels like he has enough surplus of Murton/Cedeno/Marshall-or-Hart-or-gallagher-Wuertz-and/or-Marquis to make at least one more significant trade.

 

That's why we get the Roberts rumors, or Burnett, or Joe Nathan, or whomever. Could be hard-pressed to be able to squeeze two significant pickups from what Hendry is probably using as his trading chips.

[craig]

I think another strike against Marshall is that he's a lefty. I don't think Lou wants 3 lefties in the rotation again.

 

Agree. I suspect that if Lou could choose, he'd rather deal Marshall than either Gallagher or hart.

 

I get the impression that Hendry feels like he has enough surplus of Murton/Cedeno/Marshall-or-Hart-or-gallagher-Wuertz-and/or-Marquis to make at least one more significant trade.

 

That's why we get the Roberts rumors, or Burnett, or Joe Nathan, or whomever. Could be hard-pressed to be able to squeeze two significant pickups from what Hendry is probably using as his trading chips.

 

I also think that it isn't really essential that he makes any additional trades. We could go into the season with the roster as is, and could either be pretty happy with how it would work out. Or else might be very happy that we didn't trade away our young options, in the event that some of Lou's intended starters get hurt or stink, and some of our youngsters who may currently be viewed as trade chips emerge as invaluable players.

[rawaction]

I think some people are taking wanting antoher pitcher the wrong way. Sure, Marshall, Gallagher, Hart, etc. are all capable of being slotted in the rotation. The problem is not all those guys can be slotted in the rotation, because 4 spots are taken by Zambrano, Lilly, Hill, Marquis. It basically becomes a preference of sitting 3-4 guys down in AAA, when you can trade 1-2 of them and improve your major league team.

 

The Cubs have several prospects, although not great, who are ready to be on a 25-man roster somewhere. Why not trade some of that depth, that won't have a spot on the Cubs veteran laden roster anyway?

[BigbadB]

Its amazing that all you fans freak out about SP every year and don't want to give a chance to any of the players coming up through the system!!!!! Why have a system if all you fans want to do is trade them for another player and not give them their chance. Lets just keep spending money and were did that get you last year, yes you won the Central but thats all you were going to do. Do you not look at the other teams like the Rockies, Diamondbacks and a few others that yes they have their established pitchers but they are also working players they have developed in their rotations.

 

Zambrano, Hill and Marshall are all products of the system. If we freaked out fans had our say, Tracshel would never have replaced Marshall in the rotation last year, even though he was also a product of the Cubs system many moons ago.

 

Arizona was supposed to have Randy Johnson, Doug Davis and Livan Hernandez in their rotation last year. Bad example. They had more products of someone else's system for their rotation. Of all the guys Arizona put in their rotation last year, only 2 are products of their own system, Webb and Owings.

 

Colorado ran Jeff Francis, Josh Fogg, Rodrigo Lopez, Aaron Cook and Jason Hirsch out there last year, and only Jeff Francis is a product of their own system. They did add Ubaldo Jimenez and Franklin Morales to the rotation later, and they are products of the system, but Elmer Dessens, Taylor Buccholz and Mark Redman got starts, and they are not products.

 

Bad examples.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think another strike against Marshall is that he's a lefty. I don't think Lou wants 3 lefties in the rotation again.

 

Yeah, I've been assuming that as well.

 

I think it would be interesting to see them go with a sort of combo platter in the 5th slot, mixing and matching Marshall, Dempster, Hart and Gallagher. You can plan to give one of them 4-5 innings, and then go to the other. If the opposition is heavily RH that day, go with the righty. On the days those guys aren't starting, they are available for long relief. It could be a good way to actually use all 12 pitchers they are likely to keep, instead of wasting a roster spot on a guy that never pitches.

[CuseCubFan69]

I think some people are taking wanting antoher pitcher the wrong way. Sure, Marshall, Gallagher, Hart, etc. are all capable of being slotted in the rotation. The problem is not all those guys can be slotted in the rotation, because 4 spots are taken by Zambrano, Lilly, Hill, Marquis. It basically becomes a preference of sitting 3-4 guys down in AAA, when you can trade 1-2 of them and improve your major league team.

 

The Cubs have several prospects, although not great, who are ready to be on a 25-man roster somewhere. Why not trade some of that depth, that won't have a spot on the Cubs veteran laden roster anyway?

 

What player do you think 2 of those guys could get the Cubs that could help the team get better?

[YearofDaCubs]

If we can improve the SP through trade I am fine with that. For the record though, I would rather see guys brought up from the system to pitch over having to watch Marquis and Dempster pitch for us. I have a feeling that both of them will have an ERA upwards of 4.80.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Its amazing that all you fans freak out about SP every year and don't want to give a chance to any of the players coming up through the system!!!!! Why have a system if all you fans want to do is trade them for another player and not give them their chance. Lets just keep spending money and were did that get you last year, yes you won the Central but thats all you were going to do. Do you not look at the other teams like the Rockies, Diamondbacks and a few others that yes they have their established pitchers but they are also working players they have developed in their rotations.

I'm not entirely in agreement that significant upgrades need to be made to the rotation, and I'm not a huge fan of trading away budding #3-4 starters to fill certain other holes. I do think the time is right to sell Marshall, mostly because I don't think he'll be given a fair shot with Hill and Lilly already in the rotation. I don't have confidence with plugging Dempster in one of the rotation spots considering he'll likely put up the same numbers as that other Sean kid from the list at a significantly higher cost. I'm still a very big fan of Angel Guzman, and I would like to think he can eventually come back and show the league what many of us have seen in him for years (or I'll just put the Kool-Aid down). We have a solid, if not very good, 1-3 with Zambrano, Hill, and Lilly, and we can probably put together close to a league average, 4 & 5 with some of the guys previously mentioned. I might change my mind if Gallagher or Guzman or Samardjiza were used to bring in a really big SS upgrade, but I don't see that happening. I certainly would not be in a hurry to trade any of them for Brian Roberts or Big Joe Blanton.

[rawaction]

I think some people are taking wanting antoher pitcher the wrong way. Sure, Marshall, Gallagher, Hart, etc. are all capable of being slotted in the rotation. The problem is not all those guys can be slotted in the rotation, because 4 spots are taken by Zambrano, Lilly, Hill, Marquis. It basically becomes a preference of sitting 3-4 guys down in AAA, when you can trade 1-2 of them and improve your major league team.

 

The Cubs have several prospects, although not great, who are ready to be on a 25-man roster somewhere. Why not trade some of that depth, that won't have a spot on the Cubs veteran laden roster anyway?

 

What player do you think 2 of those guys could get the Cubs that could help the team get better?

 

I'm not talking about trading just pitchers, but I think the guys that have been mentioned (Burnett, Greinke, Blanton) can all be had for any combination of Gallagher, Marshall, Hart, Veal, Holliman, Patterson, Murton, Cedeno, Petrick, etc.....all of whom are probably ML ready, but have not significant place on the Cubs roster.

[JeffH]

I get the impression that Hendry feels like he has enough surplus of Murton/Cedeno/Marshall-or-Hart-or-gallagher-Wuertz-and/or-Marquis to make at least one more significant trade.

 

That's why we get the Roberts rumors, or Burnett, or Joe Nathan, or whomever. Could be hard-pressed to be able to squeeze two significant pickups from what Hendry is probably using as his trading chips.

 

I imagine that Nathan is a guy you're not going to be able to get for spare parts. I could see Pie being used to get him. Nathan for one season at a very friendly salary, then let him walk for two draft choices.

 

I'd rather they just let Pie play CF.