MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[Clem Fandango]

But Greene's offense is far more valuable considering his position. I'm not advocating a Pie-Greene swap, but I see where Meph's coming from.

 

I agree, and I can see where he's coming from as well, but I'm just curious why a Pie-Greene trade is a smart idea.

 

I could see a Murton/Cedeno/Mid-to-Upper Level Prospect for Greene trade tossed around, but not our top prospect (if he's even considered a prospect anymore)

Edited December 6, 2007 by The Logan

[cbbryan]

But Greene's offense is far more valuable considering his position. I'm not advocating a Pie-Greene swap, but I see where Meph's coming from.

 

 

SS is certainly a harder position to fill offensively, but not like it was in years past.

 

I wouldn't be against a deal for Greene. I'd just be against giving up Pie in said deal.

[ChiCubsFan]

How is this thread 27 non-Premium pages? What the heck have you guys been conversing about?

[Mephistopheles]

pie blows get over him.

 

Khalil Greene was Neifi Perez + HR's last year.

 

EDIT: Oh, and About 80 more K's

 

i don't think there's much wrong with having a shortstop who plays great defense and hits homeruns, even with a low obp.

 

I'm not taking anything away from his SS defense, it's great don't get me wrong, but Greene never hit more than 20HR in any season, MLB or MiLB till this year. I'm sure if he weren't in SD he'd have had a dozen more HR and that's great and all but that OBP really hurts. He had 44 doubles, 3 triples, and 27HR and still managed to have an OPS+ of exactly 100, for a .759OPS.

 

I'll take that at the bottom of the order, and at a cheaper price, in a heartbeat, but my befuddlement comes in why Pie is only worth Greene when Pie can develop into an above average offensive player (and everyone seems to think so, scouts and analysts included), while Khalil Greene is barely making the league average.

 

dont even bring statistics into this discussion.

[Clem Fandango]

pie blows get over him.

 

Khalil Greene was Neifi Perez + HR's last year.

 

EDIT: Oh, and About 80 more K's

 

i don't think there's much wrong with having a shortstop who plays great defense and hits homeruns, even with a low obp.

 

I'm not taking anything away from his SS defense, it's great don't get me wrong, but Greene never hit more than 20HR in any season, MLB or MiLB till this year. I'm sure if he weren't in SD he'd have had a dozen more HR and that's great and all but that OBP really hurts. He had 44 doubles, 3 triples, and 27HR and still managed to have an OPS+ of exactly 100, for a .759OPS.

 

I'll take that at the bottom of the order, and at a cheaper price, in a heartbeat, but my befuddlement comes in why Pie is only worth Greene when Pie can develop into an above average offensive player (and everyone seems to think so, scouts and analysts included), while Khalil Greene is barely making the league average.

 

dont even bring statistics into this discussion.

 

Yeah, I know, you're the God of metrics. I'm not a noob, been here for a year now actually, just got back on tonight. Woe is me.

 

I don't doubt your knowledge, you're a smart dude. Just wondering how you can justify Greene for Pie as being a smart move

[cbbryan]

pie blows get over him.

 

Khalil Greene was Neifi Perez + HR's last year.

 

EDIT: Oh, and About 80 more K's

 

i don't think there's much wrong with having a shortstop who plays great defense and hits homeruns, even with a low obp.

 

I'm not taking anything away from his SS defense, it's great don't get me wrong, but Greene never hit more than 20HR in any season, MLB or MiLB till this year. I'm sure if he weren't in SD he'd have had a dozen more HR and that's great and all but that OBP really hurts. He had 44 doubles, 3 triples, and 27HR and still managed to have an OPS+ of exactly 100, for a .759OPS.

 

I'll take that at the bottom of the order, and at a cheaper price, in a heartbeat, but my befuddlement comes in why Pie is only worth Greene when Pie can develop into an above average offensive player (and everyone seems to think so, scouts and analysts included), while Khalil Greene is barely making the league average.

 

dont even bring statistics into this discussion.

 

 

Yes, boss man!

[Rob]

Khalil Greene = (our) Alex Gonzalez

 

There's nothing wrong with that, as it can make him a 7 win player every now and then (an upgrade of five full wins over Theriot). But he's only got two more years under club control and he's starting to get expensive.

 

Those five wins are huge in our current situation, but still I can't see the justification for trading away Pie. Even if Pie fails to meet most expectations, I don't see much of a chance that he can't eclipse the optimistic estimate of 14 wins over the next two seasons from Greene during Pie's six more years under club control.

 

In a lot of situations (including Hendry's lame duck position), this makes a lot of sense... but I suppose I'm still hung up on Pie's upside. If I were as down on him as Meph apparently is though (which I would love to hear the explanation as to why), I would definately pull the trigger as well.

[Mephistopheles]

in statistics.

 

Khalil Greene is an extreme flyball hitter. In fact, last season he was in the 91st percentile in batted ball flyball percentage. Khalil Greene plays half of his games in Petco Park. Petco is the worst park for a flyball hitter to play in. Wrigley Field, on the other hand, is one of the better ones. Khalil Greene's splits each season bear the effect of Petco on his production.

 

Petco

.152/.176/.182/.358 - 2003

.241/.345/.338/.683 - 2004

.256/.285/.399/.684 - 2005

.210/.282/.346/.628 - 2006

.216/.258/.412/.670 - 2007

 

Everywhere else

.281/.361/.625/.986 - 2003

.301/.353/.543/.896 - 2004

.244/.308/.465/.773 - 2005

.280/.356/.507/.863 - 2006

.288/.322/.519/.840 - 2007

 

Park effects do NOT affect all hitters the same. Khalil Greene is the WORST player for the Padres. He's a terrible fit for them. Once Khalil is saved from baseball yellowstone hes going to breakout into the player he was destined to become. If he were on the Cubs next season you should expect a line of .275/.330/.500/.830 at the minimum.

 

So yeah, I don't even need to mention he plays shortstop, or the fact that he's a tremendous defensive player at shortstop. Or the fact that we can sign two CFers (Fukudome, Bradley) relatively easily and have another one a year or two away in the minors (Colvin) and that we have no other options internally at SS (Cedeno does not count with our regime) and externally this is are only bet and he's probably a better player on the Cubs than Miguel Tejada. Yes. Khalil Greene would be flat out better than Miguel Tejada, trade parts aside. I don't even have to mention that I am down on Felix Pie. Would you trade Pie for Tejada straight up? Of course. Doing Pie for Greene straight up should be a no-brainer too. It's too bad I'm the only one here who sees this.

 

Khalil Greene is the PERFECT trade for our offseason "Big Acquisition"

 

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f189/kctigers23/StampofApprovalSmall.png

 

I hope you all have seen the light on Greene.

[Sammy Sofa]

Man, I'm sold.

[ChiCubsFan]

So is this thought to be a done deal?

[BCVM22]

So is this thought to be a done deal?

 

Very doubtful. Bruce posted several pages ago that given what he felt would be required approval from Angelos for any deal involving Roberts to go through, it was unlikely this would get done tonight.

[cbbryan]

in statistics.

 

Khalil Greene is an extreme flyball hitter. In fact, last season he was in the 91st percentile in batted ball flyball percentage. Khalil Greene plays half of his games in Petco Park. Petco is the worst park for a flyball hitter to play in. Wrigley Field, on the other hand, is one of the better ones. Khalil Greene's splits each season bear the effect of Petco on his production.

 

Petco

.152/.176/.182/.358 - 2003

.241/.345/.338/.683 - 2004

.256/.285/.399/.684 - 2005

.210/.282/.346/.628 - 2006

.216/.258/.412/.670 - 2007

 

Everywhere else

.281/.361/.625/.986 - 2003

.301/.353/.543/.896 - 2004

.244/.308/.465/.773 - 2005

.280/.356/.507/.863 - 2006

.288/.322/.519/.840 - 2007

 

Park effects do NOT affect all hitters the same. Khalil Greene is the WORST player for the Padres. He's a terrible fit for them. Once Khalil is saved from baseball yellowstone hes going to breakout into the player he was destined to become. If he were on the Cubs next season you should expect a line of .275/.330/.500/.830 at the minimum.

 

So yeah, I don't even need to mention he plays shortstop, or the fact that he's a tremendous defensive player at shortstop. Or the fact that we can sign two CFers (Fukudome, Bradley) relatively easily and have another one a year or two away in the minors (Colvin) and that we have no other options internally at SS (Cedeno does not count with our regime) and externally this is are only bet and he's probably a better player on the Cubs than Miguel Tejada. Yes. Khalil Greene would be flat out better than Miguel Tejada, trade parts aside. I don't even have to mention that I am down on Felix Pie. Would you trade Pie for Tejada straight up? Of course. Doing Pie for Greene straight up should be a no-brainer too. It's too bad I'm the only one here who sees this.

 

Khalil Greene is the PERFECT trade for our offseason "Big Acquisition"

 

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f189/kctigers23/StampofApprovalSmall.png

 

I hope you all have seen the light on Greene.

 

So you'd give Pie up even if you didn't have to? Like I said, Pie wouldn't be my offer. While I see value in Greene, it doesn't mean that I want to see the Cubs give up Pie.

 

I like Bradley and Fukudome as well, but I see Fukudome as the RF because of Pie. I see Bradley as the #4 if he's healthy.

 

Trade for Greene..................... just don't use Pie to get him.

[Mephistopheles]

im not going to let some pos cfer get in the way of this trade.

 

MILTON BRADLEY IS BETTER THAN ALFONSO SORIANO AND KOSUKE FUKUDOME MUCH LESS FELIX CRAPIE

 

 

4th of? lmao son. lmao.

[cbbryan]

im not going to let some pos cfer get in the way of this trade.

 

MILTON BRADLEY IS BETTER THAN ALFONSO SORIANO AND KOSUKE FUKUDOME MUCH LESS FELIX CRAPIE

 

 

4th of? lmao son. lmao.

 

:roll: Bradley's good when he's healthy. He's just never healthy.

 

You mean to tell me that depending on Bradley to hold down RF or CF in a year in which he's coming back from a major knee surgery is somehow a good idea?!?! The guys never been healthy, but you in all your knowledge think it's a good idea to hand him RF/CF coming off a major knee surgery!

 

I'm LMAO, son!

:roll:

[Outshined_One]

I take a break to get dinner and watch a movie (The Third Man!)...only to come back and see nothing's changed.

 

I enjoyed reading the comment someone made about having to wade through 10 pages of crap to find my post-padder comment, though. The implications of that were rather flattering. :lol:

[treebird]

i'm now completely convinced on khalil greene, meph.

 

before i ask you to go into it, is there any thread where you've explained your distaste for pie?

[Outshined_One]

Also, for your amusement:

 

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8229/50catdreamswalrusgx3.jpg

[brinoch]

I've mentioned my love fro Greene previously, and even opined that Pie would have to be included. However, I wonder if the Pads would ask for more than just Pie.

 

I also wonder if you might not be able to trade Prior+Cedeno to get a deal like that done. Depending on how much they value Prior, of course. Greene would be a very good asset for the Cubs; both his defense and his hitting are an upgrade from Theriot.

[CubsWin]

Also, for your amusement:

 

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8229/50catdreamswalrusgx3.jpg

O_O,

 

I thought the bull sea lion thing was funny by itself, but what was really hilarious was the second picture of the sea lion when his bucket is being taken away matches up perfectly with the pic in your sig of Mangino. Same angle, same look on their faces, same body shape, everything. Hi-larious.

[Mephistopheles]

I've mentioned my love fro Greene previously, and even opined that Pie would have to be included. However, I wonder if the Pads would ask for more than just Pie.

 

I also wonder if you might not be able to trade Prior+Cedeno to get a deal like that done. Depending on how much they value Prior, of course. Greene would be a very good asset for the Cubs; both his defense and his hitting are an upgrade from Theriot.

 

The Padres have been enamored with Pie for awhile now. I don't think they would ask for more than Pie. In fact wasn't it the Cubs who turned down the Pie for Greene trade in July? I've always thought if we were going to trade Prior to the Padres, we might as well somehow get Khalil for him + someone if need be. Regardless, he's a great opportunity.

 

i'm now completely convinced on khalil greene, meph.

 

before i ask you to go into it, is there any thread where you've explained your distaste for pie?

 

No, I just don't like sweets.

[Bote McBoteface]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b10/kinsey5/bucket.jpg

[Butterscup1679666578]

Very interesting stuff Meph, you very much sold me on Kahlil. I always liked him, but his OBP kind of worried me. Thanks for the read.

[CubColtPacer]

One thing that I haven't seen posted yet.

 

Roberts is being devalued because he is only a slight upgrade over DeRosa. This is a very true statement in itself. At the same time, look at this:

 

Cubs 2B had 623 AB's last year

DeRosa had 502 AB's last year

 

DeRosa only had 292 AB's at 2nd base last year! He was moved around so much last year that 341 AB's were taken by inferior players. Even if the Cubs don't get Roberts, DeRosa is not likely to get much more of the second base AB's this year because he'll again have so much time playing other positions.

 

More than half the at-bats that Roberts will be taking away are Fontenot's and Theriot's from last year, and at-bats that would all be Fontenot's this year.

 

Roberts may not be that much of an upgrade specifically over DeRosa, but Roberts+DeRosa getting all of the at-bats is a significant upgrade over DeRosa and Fontenot splitting the at-bats.

[rawaction]

One thing that I haven't seen posted yet.

 

Roberts is being devalued because he is only a slight upgrade over DeRosa. This is a very true statement in itself. At the same time, look at this:

 

Cubs 2B had 623 AB's last year

DeRosa had 502 AB's last year

 

DeRosa only had 292 AB's at 2nd base last year! He was moved around so much last year that 341 AB's were taken by inferior players. Even if the Cubs don't get Roberts, DeRosa is not likely to get much more of the second base AB's this year because he'll again have so much time playing other positions.

 

More than half the at-bats that Roberts will be taking away are Fontenot's and Theriot's from last year, and at-bats that would all be Fontenot's this year.

 

Roberts may not be that much of an upgrade specifically over DeRosa, but Roberts+DeRosa getting all of the at-bats is a significant upgrade over DeRosa and Fontenot splitting the at-bats.

 

Didn't realize that. That's a very good point. I also like the idea of either moving Soriano down in the lineup (which initially seems like the plan) or having a set #2 hitter. Since they aren't willing to leave Derosa there, Roberts is about as good as the Cubs can conceivably get.

[ThePenguin11]

I'd probably be all over this Khalil Greene thing if he didn't look so much like Jeff Spicoli wearing a baseball costume. I find it hard to take him seriously, much in the same way I couldn't stand to look at Goldylocks Craig Wilson.