The Kosuke Fukudome & Hiroki Kuroda Thread

[jersey cubs fan]

I'd be weary of this Kuroda guy's ability to perform in the states. There's been a shaky history of Asian pitchers making it over here, with many of them absolutely bombing hard, and only the best really having much success.

 

 

The note on bcb's site about ticket price increases is probably pretty smart, announce that increase now, before the sale, and the new owner doesn't get labelled as the bad guy since the previous owners made the move.

[rawaction]

I'd be weary of this Kuroda guy's ability to perform in the states. There's been a shaky history of Asian pitchers making it over here, with many of them absolutely bombing hard, and only the best really having much success.

 

 

The note on bcb's site about ticket price increases is probably pretty smart, announce that increase now, before the sale, and the new owner doesn't get labelled as the bad guy since the previous owners made the move.

 

Shaky history?

[UMFan83]

Looking at his numbers, I just don't see why one could expect Kuroda to have significantly more success than Igawa did this past season.

 

I agree. Doesn't look (according to his numbers) like he has overpowering stuff, but I think with Fukudome comes Kuroda. Chicago doesn't have the Japanese market, nor do they have any Japanese players on their team to help one get acclimated to the MLB and US

[jersey cubs fan]

I'd be weary of this Kuroda guy's ability to perform in the states. There's been a shaky history of Asian pitchers making it over here, with many of them absolutely bombing hard, and only the best really having much success.

 

 

The note on bcb's site about ticket price increases is probably pretty smart, announce that increase now, before the sale, and the new owner doesn't get labelled as the bad guy since the previous owners made the move.

 

Shaky history?

 

Well, Ishii sucked, Igawa is terrible. Matsuzaka was good this year, but I don't think he was as good as advertised. Nomo and Park each had pretty nice careers, but were extremely inconsistent.

 

I'm fairly confident in a solid hitter contributing in the majors, I don't have a ton of faith in pitchers, especially ones that aren't considered the best of the best.

[jersey cubs fan]

Looking at his numbers, I just don't see why one could expect Kuroda to have significantly more success than Igawa did this past season.

 

I agree. Doesn't look (according to his numbers) like he has overpowering stuff, but I think with Fukudome comes Kuroda. Chicago doesn't have the Japanese market, nor do they have any Japanese players on their team to help one get acclimated to the MLB and US

 

Well, if the price is reasonable, it probably would be wise to bring a fellow Japanese player along to help with both of their transitions. Even if he doesn't do well, Kuroda's value could be in both helping Fukudome come over in the first place, and get comfortable.

 

 

I would just really regret all the gimmicky signs, clothing and other paraphenalia fans will be throwing out there. I imagine all the street vendors would be supplying plenty of crap.

[BigbadB]

Well, Ishii sucked, Igawa is terrible. Matsuzaka was good this year, but I don't think he was as good as advertised. Nomo and Park each had pretty nice careers, but were extremely inconsistent.

 

I'm fairly confident in a solid hitter contributing in the majors, I don't have a ton of faith in pitchers, especially ones that aren't considered the best of the best.

 

How about Chien-Ming Wang? He has not only been very effective, but appears to have some solid staying power.

[inari]

Well, Ishii sucked, Igawa is terrible. Matsuzaka was good this year, but I don't think he was as good as advertised. Nomo and Park each had pretty nice careers, but were extremely inconsistent.

 

I'm fairly confident in a solid hitter contributing in the majors, I don't have a ton of faith in pitchers, especially ones that aren't considered the best of the best.

 

How about Chien-Ming Wang? He has not only been very effective, but appears to have some solid staying power.

 

Not to nit pick, but he isn't Japanese.

[Outshined_One]

I don't think he was referring to pitchers of Asian descent, but, instead, was referring to pitchers who pitched professionally in Asia and then came over to the US.

 

Wang came up through the Yankees organization.

[BigbadB]

Not to nit pick, but he isn't Japanese.

 

Not to nit pick right back at you, but neither is Chan Ho Park. And Jersey was referencing Asian pitchers, not just Japanese.

[BigbadB]

There's been a shaky history of Asian pitchers making it over here, with many of them absolutely bombing hard, and only the best really having much success.

[jersey cubs fan]

Not to nit pick, but he isn't Japanese.

 

Not to nit pick right back at you, but neither is Chan Ho Park. And Jersey was referencing Asian pitchers, not just Japanese.

 

I was referring to all Asian pitchers, with a focus on guys coming over after having pitched professionally in Japan. Guys like Wang and Ryu are a bit different. But there's nothing wrong with throwing them all in there. My point is not that it's impossible for an Asian pitcher to have success in the states, rather, that guys coming over in the middle of their careers have had shaky results. The hitters seem to me to be a lot more stable. Guys already in their 30's who aren't considered the best of the best are kind of scary.

[Guest]

I think what you're seeing there is the shaky nature of signing FA pitchers as a whole. Their year to year performance simply isn't going to be as stable as it is for hitters (unless they are at the absolute peak of the pyramid). So many stateside FA pitcher signings don't work out, either, that you might as well question the investment in FA pitching at all.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think what you're seeing there is the shaky nature of signing FA pitchers as a whole. Their year to year performance simply isn't going to be as stable as it is for hitters (unless they are at the absolute peak of the pyramid). So many stateside FA pitcher signings don't work out, either, that you might as well question the investment in FA pitching at all.

 

Perhaps, but there isn't a ton of available free agent pitching in the states. The true bests are typically signed by their own club before making it to the market, so that the only thing available are the Ted Lilly's and Steve Trachsel's of the world. 2nd/3rd tier guys or the bottom of the barrel. Occasionally you'll get guys like Mussina and Hampton, perceived as great pitchers, hit the free agent market before their mid 30's, but I don't think there's a ton of that out there.

 

My question is, have we had a post-30 Japanese starting pitcher sign as a free agent in the states and be successful?

[Guest]

I don't think he was referring to pitchers of Asian descent, but, instead, was referring to pitchers who pitched professionally in Asia and then came over to the US.

 

Wang came up through the Yankees organization.

 

Goony referenced Chan Ho Park who didn't pitch professionally in Asia (he did pitch in college in South Korea so he didn't need much time in the Dodgers farm system).

[HoopsCubs]

I'm worried about losing Fukodome to the Giants. They have money to spend, need someone to energize their fan base with Barry gone, and can provide a good environment for a Japanese player.

[BigbadB]

I'm worried about losing Fukodome to the Giants. They have money to spend, need someone to energize their fan base with Barry gone, and can provide a good environment for a Japanese player.

 

Good call. That is very likely. The Giants could also go after someone like Jose Guillen for the other corner.

[Mephistopheles]

I'd be weary of this Kuroda guy's ability to perform in the states. There's been a shaky history of Asian pitchers making it over here, with many of them absolutely bombing hard, and only the best really having much success.

 

What? You completely missed the boat. It's the other way around. Hitters have a relatively shaky history and pitchers have been nails when coming over. The only pitchers to struggle are Irabu and Igawa. Every other one was perfectly fine. Even Irabu had success initially before the injuries piled up. The only pure bust is Igawa, and that is a sixty inning sample size.

[rawaction]

I'd be weary of this Kuroda guy's ability to perform in the states. There's been a shaky history of Asian pitchers making it over here, with many of them absolutely bombing hard, and only the best really having much success.

 

What? You completely missed the boat. It's the other way around. Hitters have a relatively shaky history and pitchers have been nails when coming over. The only pitchers to struggle are Irabu and Igawa. Every other one was perfectly fine. Even Irabu had success initially before the injuries piled up. The only pure bust is Igawa, and that is a sixty inning sample size.

 

That's what I was thinking too. None of the Asian pitchers have been dominant (outside of maybe Nomo for a couple years), but only the ones you named have been bad. I don't know that hitters have been a bust either, because I can't think of too many hitters that have actually come over other than Matsui's, Ichiro, Iguchi, and the dude in Tampa.

 

Choi and others have, but they haven't been in their prime as the original post stated.

[Mephistopheles]

I'd be weary of this Kuroda guy's ability to perform in the states. There's been a shaky history of Asian pitchers making it over here, with many of them absolutely bombing hard, and only the best really having much success.

 

 

The note on bcb's site about ticket price increases is probably pretty smart, announce that increase now, before the sale, and the new owner doesn't get labelled as the bad guy since the previous owners made the move.

 

Shaky history?

 

Well, Ishii sucked, Igawa is terrible. Matsuzaka was good this year, but I don't think he was as good as advertised. Nomo and Park each had pretty nice careers, but were extremely inconsistent.

 

I'm fairly confident in a solid hitter contributing in the majors, I don't have a ton of faith in pitchers, especially ones that aren't considered the best of the best.

 

Ishii sucked? He was pretty much as expected. In Japan he was a strikeout pitcher with walk issues. In the US he was a strikeout pitcher with walk issues. His first two seasons were fine: 4.27 ERA and a 3.86 ERA. Granted he was lucky, but he didn't suck. He was as expected. Matsuzaka was fine this season, inconsistent and pitched in a tough division. Nomo had a very good career. Park has as well, but he shouldn't count. He was signed out of high school. We're talking about translating guys who have had success in NPB and guys who came here. Park is irrelevant.

[Mephistopheles]

I'd be weary of this Kuroda guy's ability to perform in the states. There's been a shaky history of Asian pitchers making it over here, with many of them absolutely bombing hard, and only the best really having much success.

 

What? You completely missed the boat. It's the other way around. Hitters have a relatively shaky history and pitchers have been nails when coming over. The only pitchers to struggle are Irabu and Igawa. Every other one was perfectly fine. Even Irabu had success initially before the injuries piled up. The only pure bust is Igawa, and that is a sixty inning sample size.

 

That's what I was thinking too. None of the Asian pitchers have been dominant (outside of maybe Nomo for a couple years), but only the ones you named have been bad. I don't know that hitters have been a bust either, because I can't think of too many hitters that have actually come over other than Matsui's, Ichiro, Iguchi, and the dude in Tampa.

 

Choi and others have, but they haven't been in their prime as the original post stated.

 

Hitters haven't came over. Choi didn't suck, but he's like Park. He doesn't count. We're talking about translating NPB players to US. Choi was signed out of high school in Korea. And Wang, etc. They're success or lack of it should not matter. The hitters who have came over off the top of my head:

 

Hideki Matsui - Career .300 EqA

Kazuo Matsui - Average offensive SS in the US

Tadahito Iguchi - Top Ten 2B in the US (this guy has been REAL good since coming over)

Kenji Jojima - Top Ten Catcher in the US (oh man if he could ever learn to walk)

Ichiro Suzuki - Career .300 EqA

Akinori Iwamura - .284 EqA - By my math his EqA should have translated to about a .280 EqA in the US (based on his last three seasons and his PECOTA was .284)

Tsuyoshi Shinjo - .245 .299 .370 in US .254 .305 .432 in Japan. Basically hit the same.

So Taguchi - .283 .336 .391 in US .277 .333 .387 in Japan. The same.

Edited November 5, 2007 by Mephistopheles

[rawaction]

I'd be weary of this Kuroda guy's ability to perform in the states. There's been a shaky history of Asian pitchers making it over here, with many of them absolutely bombing hard, and only the best really having much success.

 

What? You completely missed the boat. It's the other way around. Hitters have a relatively shaky history and pitchers have been nails when coming over. The only pitchers to struggle are Irabu and Igawa. Every other one was perfectly fine. Even Irabu had success initially before the injuries piled up. The only pure bust is Igawa, and that is a sixty inning sample size.

 

That's what I was thinking too. None of the Asian pitchers have been dominant (outside of maybe Nomo for a couple years), but only the ones you named have been bad. I don't know that hitters have been a bust either, because I can't think of too many hitters that have actually come over other than Matsui's, Ichiro, Iguchi, and the dude in Tampa.

 

Choi and others have, but they haven't been in their prime as the original post stated.

 

Hitters haven't came over. Choi didn't suck, but he's like Park. He doesn't count. We're talking about translating NPB players to US. Choi was signed out of high school in Korea. And Wang, etc. They're success or lack of it should not matter. The hitters who have came over off the top of my head:

 

Hideki Matsui - Career .300 EqA

Kazuo Matsui - Average offensive SS in the US

Tadahito Iguchi - Top Ten 2B in the US (this guy has been REAL good since coming over)

Kenji Jojima - Top Ten Catcher in the US (oh man if he could ever learn to walk)

Ichiro Suzuki - Career .300 EqA

Akinori Iwamura - .284 EqA - By my math his EqA should have translated to about a .280 EqA in the US (based on his last three seasons and his PECOTA was .284)

 

yeah, that's basically what I was saying, that they should NOT count.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'd be weary of this Kuroda guy's ability to perform in the states. There's been a shaky history of Asian pitchers making it over here, with many of them absolutely bombing hard, and only the best really having much success.

 

 

The note on bcb's site about ticket price increases is probably pretty smart, announce that increase now, before the sale, and the new owner doesn't get labelled as the bad guy since the previous owners made the move.

 

Shaky history?

 

Well, Ishii sucked, Igawa is terrible. Matsuzaka was good this year, but I don't think he was as good as advertised. Nomo and Park each had pretty nice careers, but were extremely inconsistent.

 

I'm fairly confident in a solid hitter contributing in the majors, I don't have a ton of faith in pitchers, especially ones that aren't considered the best of the best.

 

Ishii sucked? He was pretty much as expected. In Japan he was a strikeout pitcher with walk issues. In the US he was a strikeout pitcher with walk issues. His first two seasons were fine: 4.27 ERA and a 3.86 ERA. Granted he was lucky, but he didn't suck. He was as expected. Matsuzaka was fine this season, inconsistent and pitched in a tough division. Nomo had a very good career. Park has as well, but he shouldn't count. He was signed out of high school. We're talking about translating guys who have had success in NPB and guys who came here. Park is irrelevant.

 

Yes, Ishii sucked, there's no question about it.

 

I think you have to differentiate between the elites who came over, Nomo and Matzuzaka, and the rest. This guy doesn't seem to be anything special, and most likely falls into the category of all the disappointments.

[Mephistopheles]

he was the best pitcher in the league last season....

 

 

and no, ishii produced just fine.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm not sure how Irabu does anything but reinforce my statement that the history of Japanese pitchers coming to the states is shaky. 5 years in the states, 2 ERA's over 7, 5.15 for his career, 87 ERA+. Ishii was here for 4 years and had an ERA+ of 90.

 

Pulling one decent season out of your butt doesn't make you a solid reliable starter.

[jersey cubs fan]

he was the best pitcher in the league last season....

 

Perhaps because the elites had already moved on? I've heard nothing that says this guy is potentially special. Everything I've heard is potential 4th/5th starter. That's fine, but there isn't a good history of Japanese pitchers coming over and providing solid stable production. Glimpses, sure. A couple positive outliers, yes. But by and large the group has been shaky.