College Basketball 2007-2008

[Vanilla Ice]

Well, that sucks

[Derwood]

the entire concept of "the social ideal of Indiana basketball" or whatever is going to guarantee fans will never be happy. as long as they fool themselves into thinking that a coach needs to "do things the right way" and "graduating the kids" etc. are as important as winning, no coach will ever be good enough

[Exile on Waveland]

the entire concept of "the social ideal of Indiana basketball" or whatever is going to guarantee fans will never be happy. as long as they fool themselves into thinking that a coach needs to "do things the right way" and "graduating the kids" etc. are as important as winning, no coach will ever be good enough

 

Disagree. IU fans can be happy.* The coach does have to do things the right way, even the Indiana way. It's a different job than other top positions -- here, we care very deeply about class, ethics, playing the right way and recruiting our state. The position requires intangibles that others don't, but that doesn't mean it can't be filled correctly. As a fan, we've been hamstrung by a coach that couldn't do any of that (Davis) and a coach that sure isn't ethical (Sampson). Both those coaches were generally accepted early, but both squandered that support.

 

*Sure, there are some that will never get over Coach Knight. I'll never get over his dismissal; however, I have moved on and desire to even more with the right coach. I think most are in this boat.

[Derwood]

the entire concept of "the social ideal of Indiana basketball" or whatever is going to guarantee fans will never be happy. as long as they fool themselves into thinking that a coach needs to "do things the right way" and "graduating the kids" etc. are as important as winning, no coach will ever be good enough

 

Disagree. IU fans can be happy.* The coach does have to do things the right way, even the Indiana way. It's a different job than other top positions -- here, we care very deeply about class, ethics, playing the right way and recruiting our state. The position requires intangibles that others don't, but that doesn't mean it can't be filled correctly. As a fan, we've been hamstrung by a coach that couldn't do any of that (Davis) and a coach that sure isn't ethical (Sampson). Both those coaches were generally accepted early, but both squandered that support.

 

*Sure, there are some that will never get over Coach Knight. I'll never get over his dismissal; however, I have moved on and desire to even more with the right coach. I think most are in this boat.

 

i think people SAY they want things done the right way, but if a Sampson-esque coach won them a NC, they'd look the other way

[Exile on Waveland]

the entire concept of "the social ideal of Indiana basketball" or whatever is going to guarantee fans will never be happy. as long as they fool themselves into thinking that a coach needs to "do things the right way" and "graduating the kids" etc. are as important as winning, no coach will ever be good enough

 

Disagree. IU fans can be happy.* The coach does have to do things the right way, even the Indiana way. It's a different job than other top positions -- here, we care very deeply about class, ethics, playing the right way and recruiting our state. The position requires intangibles that others don't, but that doesn't mean it can't be filled correctly. As a fan, we've been hamstrung by a coach that couldn't do any of that (Davis) and a coach that sure isn't ethical (Sampson). Both those coaches were generally accepted early, but both squandered that support.

 

*Sure, there are some that will never get over Coach Knight. I'll never get over his dismissal; however, I have moved on and desire to even more with the right coach. I think most are in this boat.

 

i think people SAY they want things done the right way, but if a Sampson-esque coach won them a NC, they'd look the other way

 

Sure, some would. First, he was hired. Second, his name was chanted, albeit faintly, after the Michigan State win. So our fanbase isn't immune to the win-at-all-costs mentality. But it's nowhere near as prevalent here as other places. The majority of our fans care very deeply about doing things the right way. Sampson's been booed and reviled in town recently -- for phone calls. He's going to be dismissed for phone calls. That should be a pretty good indication.

 

(And, yes, I understand his dismissal also includes some bureaucratical self-preservation by the administration.)

[rawaction]

As an IU fan/alum who despised Knight since about the mid-90s, the biggest thing he did, to me, was run a clean program. He didn't get any sanctions. His players didn't get into trouble much, and if they did they were immediately let go (Sherron Wilkerson, etc). And his players graduated from school. Granted, I'd love a championship and am rooting for IU to do so this year, with or without Sampson.....but I take a lot of pride in having five 100% clean championships.

[Derwood]

As an IU fan/alum who despised Knight since about the mid-90s, the biggest thing he did, to me, was run a clean program. He didn't get any sanctions. His players didn't get into trouble much, and if they did they were immediately let go (Sherron Wilkerson, etc). And his players graduated from school. Granted, I'd love a championship and am rooting for IU to do so this year, with or without Sampson.....but I take a lot of pride in having five 100% clean championships.

 

you'd trade graduating kids every year for a run of Final Four's.

[rawaction]

As an IU fan/alum who despised Knight since about the mid-90s, the biggest thing he did, to me, was run a clean program. He didn't get any sanctions. His players didn't get into trouble much, and if they did they were immediately let go (Sherron Wilkerson, etc). And his players graduated from school. Granted, I'd love a championship and am rooting for IU to do so this year, with or without Sampson.....but I take a lot of pride in having five 100% clean championships.

 

you'd trade graduating kids every year for a run of Final Four's.

 

Sure, if you can point out where I even remotely hinted to saying that. I'm saying you can do both. Which IU has proven.

[CubColtPacer]

As an IU fan/alum who despised Knight since about the mid-90s, the biggest thing he did, to me, was run a clean program. He didn't get any sanctions. His players didn't get into trouble much, and if they did they were immediately let go (Sherron Wilkerson, etc). And his players graduated from school. Granted, I'd love a championship and am rooting for IU to do so this year, with or without Sampson.....but I take a lot of pride in having five 100% clean championships.

 

you'd trade graduating kids every year for a run of Final Four's.

 

A lot of Indiana fans wouldn't. If I had a choice of a program who had 2 national championships, 2 other final 4 appearances, and in the tournament every time in a 10 year period but was run like Cincinnati was run in the 90's, or if I could have a program with 0 titles, 1 Final 4, and 8 tournament appearances in 10 years with a clean program, I'd very gladly take the latter.

 

I think like Raw does that you can win with a clean program. The clean program is something you can control and should be the priority, and hopefully success in the tournament will follow.

[Exile on Waveland]

As an IU fan/alum who despised Knight since about the mid-90s, the biggest thing he did, to me, was run a clean program. He didn't get any sanctions. His players didn't get into trouble much, and if they did they were immediately let go (Sherron Wilkerson, etc). And his players graduated from school. Granted, I'd love a championship and am rooting for IU to do so this year, with or without Sampson.....but I take a lot of pride in having five 100% clean championships.

 

you'd trade graduating kids every year for a run of Final Four's.

 

A lot of Indiana fans wouldn't. If I had a choice of a program who had 2 national championships, 2 other final 4 appearances, and in the tournament every time in a 10 year period but was run like Cincinnati was run in the 90's, or if I could have a program with 0 titles, 1 Final 4, and 8 tournament appearances in 10 years with a clean program, I'd very gladly take the latter.

 

I wouldn't hesitate. You could decrease the numbers of the latter scenario and I still wouldn't hesitate. I wouldn't get much, if any, joy from rooting for a team like that.

[Derwood]

As an IU fan/alum who despised Knight since about the mid-90s, the biggest thing he did, to me, was run a clean program. He didn't get any sanctions. His players didn't get into trouble much, and if they did they were immediately let go (Sherron Wilkerson, etc). And his players graduated from school. Granted, I'd love a championship and am rooting for IU to do so this year, with or without Sampson.....but I take a lot of pride in having five 100% clean championships.

 

you'd trade graduating kids every year for a run of Final Four's.

 

A lot of Indiana fans wouldn't. If I had a choice of a program who had 2 national championships, 2 other final 4 appearances, and in the tournament every time in a 10 year period but was run like Cincinnati was run in the 90's, or if I could have a program with 0 titles, 1 Final 4, and 8 tournament appearances in 10 years with a clean program, I'd very gladly take the latter.

 

I'm just saying that it's not really important to coaches anymore. Heck, even Duke isn't graduating players anymore, and that used to be Coach K's "thing".

[BRASKYS SCOTCH]

As an IU fan/alum who despised Knight since about the mid-90s, the biggest thing he did, to me, was run a clean program. He didn't get any sanctions. His players didn't get into trouble much, and if they did they were immediately let go (Sherron Wilkerson, etc). And his players graduated from school. Granted, I'd love a championship and am rooting for IU to do so this year, with or without Sampson.....but I take a lot of pride in having five 100% clean championships.

 

you'd trade graduating kids every year for a run of Final Four's.

 

 

I think we're starting to miss the mark slightly w/ this "graduation" argument. Let's be fair: Knight's personality and history did its share in preventing certain players of a talent caliber from wanting to come to IU, whether they would have graduated or not. The graduation record is an additional accomplishment that doesn't dictate whether or not a coach can win championships or advance deeply into the tournament. The "clean" and "graduation" records of Knight gain more weight in spite of the issues surrounding his behavior and personality. Likewise, schools that yield poor student-athletes will have that issue brought before them when they historically perform well on the court consistently (see Huggins, Bob at Cincinatti). But no one's going to say they don't want their school to graduate their players.

[Derwood]

But no one's going to say they don't want their school to graduate their players.

 

no, but to say that graduating players is more important than winning is usually a rationalization for having a mediocre but clean program

[BRASKYS SCOTCH]

But no one's going to say they don't want their school to graduate their players.

 

no, but to say that graduating players is more important than winning is usually a rationalization for having a mediocre but clean program

 

That's just as bad of a generalization as me saying what you just wrote identifies a mid-major program. It's certainly available to be offered in this case, but what I'm saying is that they're not related. Essentially, it's a poor argument either way. It's important to run a clean program for school pride, not for sports-related laurels. If the goal is solely winning championships, then the means is justified. If the goal is running a strong program that represents the school well, then you have limitations imposed by maintaining a clean and stringent program.

[Exile on Waveland]

But no one's going to say they don't want their school to graduate their players.

 

no, but to say that graduating players is more important than winning is usually a rationalization for having a mediocre but clean program

 

Just as "winning is all that matters; everyone cheats"* is a rationalization for having a great but dirty program.

 

*At some level, everyone does cheat. There are so many rules that violations unwittingly happen all the time. I mean knowingly violation bright-line rules.

[SouthSideRyan]

It's a different job than other top positions -- here, we care very deeply about class, ethics, playing the right way and recruiting our state. The position requires intangibles that others don't, but that doesn't mean it can't be filled correctly.

 

I want to change my arrogant/delusional fan base vote.

[Vanilla Ice]

My mom is a big West Virginia fan, and she said when they hired Huggins that she would not find much joy rooting for them even if they one. Huggins is her least favorite coach in recent memory. Yet, during the season, she is taking joy out of all the wins. It sounds good on paper to want a clean program that loses as opposed to a dirty program that wins, but doesn't happen in real life.

[Sosa21MVP]

The three things I want in a coach:

 

Win, don't cheat and represent the program well. That is all.

[Exile on Waveland]

It's a different job than other top positions -- here, we care very deeply about class, ethics, playing the right way and recruiting our state. The position requires intangibles that others don't, but that doesn't mean it can't be filled correctly.

 

I want to change my arrogant/delusional fan base vote.

 

I don't agree that my post was arrogant or delusional. If it is, I didn't mean it to be. This may be in part because I didn't do a good job expressing myself and you are misconstruing it.

 

Most programs probably care about class and ethics. Playing the right way? Maybe I should've typed "what Indiana people consider the right way." Perhaps that's arrogance on our part that their is a "right way" or "Indiana way." I'd be willing to bet you won't find a program that cares more about recruiting its in-state players. In this, Indiana fans are arrogant: we like our state's players the best.

 

I don't mean to say Indiana is a better job than most. It is a different animal, however. Coach Knight made it so. Indiana fans expect more than just winning; perhaps that's delusional. I wasn't commenting on it, just stating it. All jobs aren't the same. That's why Illinois fans have been saying Scott Skiles would be perfect for IU.

 

Edit: Nevermind the fact that I wasn't the one to bring this up. I was simply commenting on Derwood's "sociology of Indiana basketball." There's a lot of truth to that.

[hawkeyecub]

Please IU, please bring Steve back home. It would be so sweet to beat him at a "real basketball school" when he's "back in red" and hear what excuses he would come up with. I actually liked Alford a fair amount and defended him quite a bit when he was here, but he did himself no favors on the way out.

 

You have every right to dislike Alford; if I were you, I would too. However, I think Iowa fans would come to dislike him even more if he got the IU job. Methinks Alford would be very successful at Indiana.

 

He very well could be. I didn't hate Alford. I've said that I think Alford improved a lot as a coach over his time at Iowa. He learned from a lot of the mistakes he made in various aspects. There was just no way he was going to win the fans over again and it was time to move on for both parties.

 

With that said, I think I would rather see him there than others. Even in the last couple of years and now at New Mexico his teams lose games they shouldn't and it's often the result of a total meltdown in the last 8 minutes. For whatever reason, this has been a constant. He still will blame everyone but himself when something goes wrong. He still has an abrasive personality and will spin everything possible (try telling IU fans how successful you've been because you've had multiple winning seasons in a row). He never figured out how to develop a solid offense.

[Exile on Waveland]

Please IU, please bring Steve back home. It would be so sweet to beat him at a "real basketball school" when he's "back in red" and hear what excuses he would come up with. I actually liked Alford a fair amount and defended him quite a bit when he was here, but he did himself no favors on the way out.

 

You have every right to dislike Alford; if I were you, I would too. However, I think Iowa fans would come to dislike him even more if he got the IU job. Methinks Alford would be very successful at Indiana.

 

He very well could be. I didn't hate Alford. I've said that I think Alford improved a lot as a coach over his time at Iowa. He learned from a lot of the mistakes he made in various aspects. There was just no way he was going to win the fans over again and it was time to move on for both parties.

 

With that said, I think I would rather see him there than others. Even in the last couple of years and now at New Mexico his teams lose games they shouldn't and it's often the result of a total meltdown in the last 8 minutes. For whatever reason, this has been a constant. He still will blame everyone but himself when something goes wrong. He still has an abrasive personality and will spin everything possible (try telling IU fans how successful you've been because you've had multiple winning seasons in a row). He never figured out how to develop a solid offense.

 

I'm not endorsing Alford for IU; he's by no means my top choice. If he's hired (he won't be), I'll neither thank the heavens nor jump off a cliff. It seems most IU fans are in either category. I do think he'd do well, though.

 

I know how Alford rubbed Iowa fans -- he rubbed me the same way. Your complaints are duly noted, and agreed with. He's not perfect and Iowa upgraded their coaching situation. However, as I said above not every job is the same. Every coach wouldn't do the same in any situation. Regardless of whether Indiana is a better job than Iowa; it is, inarguably, a job more conducive to Alford.

[shnsajax]

I think DJ Augustine's slump is over. 17 points in the first half, 4 assists, 0 turnovers, 3/5 in 3 pointers. Not a bad first half at all either for the whole team with a 39-18 lead at the half.

[Derwood]

lot's of hyperbole going on here. there is a huge amount of gray area between a squeaky clean program and Huggins style coaching

[hawkeyecub]

 

I know how Alford rubbed Iowa fans -- he rubbed me the same way. Your complaints are duly noted, and agreed with. He's not perfect and Iowa upgraded their coaching situation. However, as I said above not every job is the same. Every coach wouldn't do the same in any situation. Regardless of whether Indiana is a better job than Iowa; it is, inarguably, a job more conducive to Alford.

 

Agreed. You don't have to sugar coat it, IU is definitely a better job. It's also a much better fit for him.

 

Like I said I just would rather see him there than others because I at least know his weaknesses. It would also be especially sweet to beat him after some of the parting shots he had.

[Exile on Waveland]

 

I know how Alford rubbed Iowa fans -- he rubbed me the same way. Your complaints are duly noted, and agreed with. He's not perfect and Iowa upgraded their coaching situation. However, as I said above not every job is the same. Every coach wouldn't do the same in any situation. Regardless of whether Indiana is a better job than Iowa; it is, inarguably, a job more conducive to Alford.

 

Agreed. You don't have to sugar coat it, IU is definitely a better job. It's also a much better fit for him.

 

Like I said I just would rather see him there than others because I at least know his weaknesses. It would also be especially sweet to beat him after some of the parting shots he had.

 

Well, I tried to refrain from turning this into a "my job is better than your job" pissing match.

 

I'm dubious IU will actually do better than Alford this time. In my opinion, they didn't with their last two hires. I have no faith or trust in IU's administration. I'm sure it would be sweet for Iowa fans to topple Alford, especially at IU. I like Lickliter a lot and look forward to seeing Iowa progress when he gets his players in place. The Big Ten is loaded with coaching talent, I just hope IU lives up to that.