Lilly's reaction to the homer

[CubinNY]

You are writing as if he had time to reflect upon what he was going to do. Do you see how fast he reacted, the ball hadn't even crossed the fence when his glove hit the ground.

 

 

Bullpucky.

 

My argument does not require that Lilly had time to reflect. It requires only that Lilly have spent time training himself to control his reactions.

 

Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation = violent outburst

 

 

actually, no.

 

Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation + no self control = violent outburst

Lilly has been on of the best pitchers at controlling his externalizing behaviors this year. Getting pissed off at giving up a 3 run jack is pretty understandable.

 

I think the entire Cubs team and their manager are playing tight, playing not to loose, if you will.

 

They are taking pitches they should be swininging at and swinging at pitches they should be taking. You just can't do that sort of thing and expect to win a playoff game. Especially Soriano, it is one of the things that got him traded from the Bronx a few years ago

[Peoriaman]

what don't I get? I thought he was just pissed, that's all.

[abuck1220]

what the hell is wrong with NSBB tonight?

 

Play sports much in your lifetime?

 

sometimes Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation = violent outburst

 

yeah, it's called choking under pressure. lilly, like most of the rest of the team, wasn't able to handle the pressure, and his little baby fit made that perfectly clear. it was pathetic and embarrassing.

[C.C.]

what the hell is wrong with NSBB tonight?

 

Play sports much in your lifetime?

 

sometimes Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation = violent outburst

 

yeah, it's called choking under pressure. lilly, like most of the rest of the team, wasn't able to handle the pressure, and his little baby fit made that perfectly clear. it was pathetic and embarrassing.

 

Very much so...

[Soul]

You are writing as if he had time to reflect upon what he was going to do. Do you see how fast he reacted, the ball hadn't even crossed the fence when his glove hit the ground.

 

 

Bullpucky.

 

My argument does not require that Lilly had time to reflect. It requires only that Lilly have spent time training himself to control his reactions.

 

Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation = violent outburst

 

 

actually, no.

 

Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation + no self control = violent outburst

Lilly has been on of the best pitchers at controlling his externalizing behaviors this year. Getting pissed off at giving up a 3 run jack is pretty understandable.

 

I think the entire Cubs team and their manager are playing tight, playing not to loose, if you will.

 

They are taking pitches they should be swininging at and swinging at pitches they should be taking. You just can't do that sort of thing and expect to win a playoff game. Especially Soriano, it is one of the things that got him traded from the Bronx a few years ago

 

I think you're 100% right. They've been playing tight ever since the Marlins series IMHO.

[C.C.]

You are writing as if he had time to reflect upon what he was going to do. Do you see how fast he reacted, the ball hadn't even crossed the fence when his glove hit the ground.

 

 

Bullpucky.

 

My argument does not require that Lilly had time to reflect. It requires only that Lilly have spent time training himself to control his reactions.

 

Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation = violent outburst

 

 

actually, no.

 

Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation + no self control = violent outburst

Lilly has been on of the best pitchers at controlling his externalizing behaviors this year. Getting pissed off at giving up a 3 run jack is pretty understandable.

 

I think the entire Cubs team and their manager are playing tight, playing not to loose, if you will.

 

They are taking pitches they should be swininging at and swinging at pitches they should be taking. You just can't do that sort of thing and expect to win a playoff game. Especially Soriano, it is one of the things that got him traded from the Bronx a few years ago

 

I think you're 100% right. They've been playing tight ever since the Marlins series IMHO.

 

They didn't look tight in the Cincy series.

[Soul]

You are writing as if he had time to reflect upon what he was going to do. Do you see how fast he reacted, the ball hadn't even crossed the fence when his glove hit the ground.

 

 

Bullpucky.

 

My argument does not require that Lilly had time to reflect. It requires only that Lilly have spent time training himself to control his reactions.

 

Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation = violent outburst

 

 

actually, no.

 

Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation + no self control = violent outburst

Lilly has been on of the best pitchers at controlling his externalizing behaviors this year. Getting pissed off at giving up a 3 run jack is pretty understandable.

 

I think the entire Cubs team and their manager are playing tight, playing not to loose, if you will.

 

They are taking pitches they should be swininging at and swinging at pitches they should be taking. You just can't do that sort of thing and expect to win a playoff game. Especially Soriano, it is one of the things that got him traded from the Bronx a few years ago

 

I think you're 100% right. They've been playing tight ever since the Marlins series IMHO.

 

They didn't look tight in the Cincy series.

 

They managed to win one game and then the race was over. They didn't have anything to play for @ Cincy.

[Cubzfan64]

I don't have a big problem with it although I suppose I'd rather he had done it in the dugout after the inning than out on the mound. He wasn't throwing a tantrum about a pitch call, wasn't showing anger over a teammate mistake - I'm sure he could tell as soon as the game started that he was having difficulty with his control and was just hoping he could get over the hump and find it without letting down the team as well as himself.

 

Fact is he couldn't and he was mighty pissed at himself. If asked about it today I'm sure he'll be embarrassed at his actions, but I don't see how any Cub fan can NOT be a little understanding.

 

I found it ironic when thinking back that if you recall in game 1, there was a moment where the camera caught Carlos Zambrano within inches of throwing his glove as well but he held back at the last second - kinda amusing that for once Big Z kept his emotions in check in a situation where Lilly couldn't.

 

Although that little voice going into the playoffs started whispering "hey, we made it into the playoffs and ANY team can win it - no reason we can't be that team," deep down I believe the majority of us knew that the 2007 Cubs really aren't that good of a team.

[C.C.]

You are writing as if he had time to reflect upon what he was going to do. Do you see how fast he reacted, the ball hadn't even crossed the fence when his glove hit the ground.

 

 

Bullpucky.

 

My argument does not require that Lilly had time to reflect. It requires only that Lilly have spent time training himself to control his reactions.

 

Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation = violent outburst

 

 

actually, no.

 

Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation + no self control = violent outburst

Lilly has been on of the best pitchers at controlling his externalizing behaviors this year. Getting pissed off at giving up a 3 run jack is pretty understandable.

 

I think the entire Cubs team and their manager are playing tight, playing not to loose, if you will.

 

They are taking pitches they should be swininging at and swinging at pitches they should be taking. You just can't do that sort of thing and expect to win a playoff game. Especially Soriano, it is one of the things that got him traded from the Bronx a few years ago

 

I think you're 100% right. They've been playing tight ever since the Marlins series IMHO.

 

They didn't look tight in the Cincy series.

 

They managed to win one game and then the race was over. They didn't have anything to play for @ Cincy.

 

Right, but that one game was one of the best they've played. Regardless, whatever, doesn't matter. They choking right now and choking hard.

[Soul]

You are writing as if he had time to reflect upon what he was going to do. Do you see how fast he reacted, the ball hadn't even crossed the fence when his glove hit the ground.

 

 

Bullpucky.

 

My argument does not require that Lilly had time to reflect. It requires only that Lilly have spent time training himself to control his reactions.

 

Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation = violent outburst

 

 

actually, no.

 

Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation + no self control = violent outburst

Lilly has been on of the best pitchers at controlling his externalizing behaviors this year. Getting pissed off at giving up a 3 run jack is pretty understandable.

 

I think the entire Cubs team and their manager are playing tight, playing not to loose, if you will.

 

They are taking pitches they should be swininging at and swinging at pitches they should be taking. You just can't do that sort of thing and expect to win a playoff game. Especially Soriano, it is one of the things that got him traded from the Bronx a few years ago

 

I think you're 100% right. They've been playing tight ever since the Marlins series IMHO.

 

They didn't look tight in the Cincy series.

 

They managed to win one game and then the race was over. They didn't have anything to play for @ Cincy.

 

Right, but that one game was one of the best they've played. Regardless, whatever, doesn't matter. They choking right now and choking hard.

 

It's too bad. I don't know what they've got to be freaked out about. They need a little perspective. 85 wins doesn't even get you here most years. They should be playing like they have nothing to lose.

[hardcorecubfan]

was probably the coolest thing so far in this series

 

hopefully they can top themselves on saturday

 

 

go lilly!!!!!

 

It was the point in which we lost the game.

[A New Era]

Ok, so take that video. Put my face on it, and replace the glove with a plastic coffee mug.

 

That's what happened in my dorm tonight.

 

Really? Mine was more like this. .

 

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2233344/2/istockphoto_2233344_emotionless.jpg

[RynoRules]

Play sports much in your lifetime?

 

Oh God, here we go...

 

Yes, "here we go" - anytime OMC has the gall to mention (or implie - something he barely did in this case) he played competitive sports someone engages in a personal attack against him.

[minnesotacubsfan]

was probably the coolest thing so far in this series

 

hopefully they can top themselves on saturday

 

 

go lilly!!!!!

The first pitch was the point in which we lost the game.

 

fixed

 

I dont blame Lilly, I wish I saw that emotion from Soriano or Lee

[minnesotacubsfan]

Play sports much in your lifetime?

 

Oh God, here we go...

 

Yes, "here we go" - anytime OMC has the gall to mention (or implie - something he barely did in this case) he played competitive sports someone engages in a personal attack against him.

 

damn you OMC for having talent!!!

[pitchcs]

what the hell is wrong with NSBB tonight?

 

Play sports much in your lifetime?

 

sometimes Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation = violent outburst

 

yeah, it's called choking under pressure. lilly, like most of the rest of the team, wasn't able to handle the pressure, and his little baby fit made that perfectly clear. it was pathetic and embarrassing.

 

Very much so...

 

 

I guess I just don't understand how it was either. Who cares? He was pissed and threw his glove. So what.

[minnesotacubsfan]

what the hell is wrong with NSBB tonight?

 

Play sports much in your lifetime?

 

sometimes Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation = violent outburst

 

yeah, it's called choking under pressure. lilly, like most of the rest of the team, wasn't able to handle the pressure, and his little baby fit made that perfectly clear. it was pathetic and embarrassing.

 

Very much so...

 

 

I guess I just don't understand how it was either. Who cares? He was pissed and threw his glove. So what.

 

agreed

[erik316wttn]

I was just noticing that the camera work reminds me of:

 

http://www.gifninja.com/Workspace/61a99455-f95f-4c4e-a891-8769dec953d9/output.gif

 

After about the 7th or 8th time they synch up almost perfectly.

[jersey cubs fan]

cool would have been focusing his anger on the next batter.

 

didn't he strike out the next batter?

[Soul]

I was just noticing that the camera work reminds me of:

 

http://www.gifninja.com/Workspace/61a99455-f95f-4c4e-a891-8769dec953d9/output.gif

 

After about the 7th or 8th time they synch up almost perfectly.

 

LOL, that's funny.

[anabiono]

You are writing as if he had time to reflect upon what he was going to do. Do you see how fast he reacted, the ball hadn't even crossed the fence when his glove hit the ground.

 

 

Bullpucky.

 

My argument does not require that Lilly had time to reflect. It requires only that Lilly have spent time training himself to control his reactions.

 

Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation = violent outburst

 

 

actually, no.

 

Testosterone + Nerves + Embarrassment + Hugely important situation + no self control = violent outburst

Lilly has been on of the best pitchers at controlling his externalizing behaviors this year. Getting pissed off at giving up a 3 run jack is pretty understandable.

 

I think the entire Cubs team and their manager are playing tight, playing not to loose, if you will.

 

They are taking pitches they should be swininging at and swinging at pitches they should be taking. You just can't do that sort of thing and expect to win a playoff game. Especially Soriano, it is one of the things that got him traded from the Bronx a few years ago

 

I think you're 100% right. They've been playing tight ever since the Marlins series IMHO.

 

first of all...to whoever posted the thesis...dude, that moment showed lilly had heart...was it enough?...no...but it WAS something in a series where they have shown barely anything...

 

i watched the game till the bitter end, so i truly hope you were not calling me out for hiding behind fear for the sake of not being able to handle pain...it got to the point in the game last night that i just had to laugh...and after the game, seeing that moment in a video...sorry, it makes me laugh...

 

 

about playing tight since the marlins series...fun facts...

 

since marlins series...cubs.... 2-6

 

cubs v. diamondbacks.......... 2-6

 

mirror mirror on the wall...that is a combined 14 games of tightness...joy

 

 

 

oh, I want this team to win on saturday night.

 

I want this team to win on sunday afternoon.

 

I want this team to win on tuesday night.

 

I want this team to win 4 out of seven in the NLCS.

 

I want this team to win 4 out of seven in the World Series.

 

I DO NOT want this team to roll over and exit quickly because it would be too painful...

 

screw that...

[jersey cubs fan]

first of all...to whoever posted the thesis...dude, that moment showed lilly had heart...was it enough?...no...but it WAS something in a series where they have shown barely anything...

 

Was it enough? That suggests what they needed was more heart. It's not heart that is beating them, it's baseball playing ability.

[abuck1220]

it didn't show me that he had heart...it showed me he was buckling under pressure.

[anabiono]

first of all...to whoever posted the thesis...dude, that moment showed lilly had heart...was it enough?...no...but it WAS something in a series where they have shown barely anything...

 

Was it enough? That suggests what they needed was more heart. It's not heart that is beating them, it's baseball playing ability.

 

no, i don't buy that...sorry...i just really don't

 

i don't care if these cubs get swept out tomorrow because it wouldn't change my belief that out of every NL contender in the playoffs this year, the cubs would be the best team to represent the NL in the World Series and possibly bring home the title...

 

they are stuck inside their heads...they are an extremely talented ballclub that is in their heads...nervous...whatever...but they are not lacking in talent...

 

i haven't bought into that argument since day one of the season and a quick exit from the playoffs this year will not make me change my mind either

[GoCubsGo1679625768]

I guess you're probably right, Lilly just stopped trying after he gave up that home run.

 

 

That is not what I said, although I will certainly accept blame for stating my point badly and, as I'll explain in a minute, for adding a cheap shot.

 

S1) "throwing his glove on the ground signalled that, at least in the heat of that moment, Ted Lilly was more interested in quickly minimizing unpleasant feelings than in maximizing the Cubs' chances of winning."

 

S2) "it shows that, in that instant, he cared more about momentary pain than about his teammates or about achievement or competition. "

 

S3) "when the team needed him, he was too busy crying."

 

 

Let's talk about S3 first. After rereading my post, I can see that it was a mistake on my part to say that. First, it was an insulting comment that played no actual role in my argument. Since I'd already made my substantive claims in S1 and S2, my decision to include S3 was gratuitous. Second, as your post shows, including S3 exaggerated the liklihood that my actual position would be misunderstood. As I'll explain in just a second, I asserted only that Lilly quit on the team after the HR, not that he never recovered or that he never restablished what I'm sure are his real priorities. But before we move on to that, I should say something about more about a third reason why S3 might have been unfair.

 

When making an accusation, or defending against one, it is often helpful to keep in mind the distinction between justifications and excuses. Suppose that I make an accusation against someone else, saying that an action they performed was inappropriate or wrong. That person then has two options to defend himself. One option is to claim that what he did was the actually the correct thing to do. The other is to admit that he shouldn't have done whatever it was, but that for some reason he should be let off the hook. The latter option -the excuse- is a claim to the effect that, under the circumstances, it was understandable, though not justifiable, that the person did what he did, for instance because some things are just too much to ask of someone.

 

When I claimed that Lilly's priorities went awry, I only offered an argument for why his behavior was unjustified. I never said anything about the possibility of excuses. I admit that this omission was a mistake. I made it only because I wasn't thinking as carefully as I should have been. So, if anyone wants to argue that I'm unfairly blaming Lilly for the type of emotional outburst no one should be expected to control, they would be perfectly right to criticize my earlier post for unfairly neglecting their position.

 

But the argument that Lilly should be excused from responsibility assumes that his behavior was unjustified. It's not clear to me whether you or others here accept that. For instance, the post immediately after yours, Brian's, seems not to. The first posts in this topic also seem to assert that Lilly's behavior was justified. Since, arguably, there's no point in arguing about excuses if there's no agreement about the possibility of justification, we should talk about justification first.

 

I assume that almost everyone here agrees that if Lilly quit on the team, then his behavior was unjustified. That amounts to saying that each player has a responsibility to the team to focus on the play at hand, and to make every effort to shove aside self-recriminating thoughts for the duration of their time on field. It seems plain to me that Lilly did not do this, and thus was in violation of his responsibility to focus on getting each batter out. One argument open to you is that some players have much stronger emotions than others, and that in some cases emotions get so strong that a player is unable to control them. Perhaps Lilly tried his best to contain his anger, but failed. If so, Lilly has an excuse. But it seems to me that you are saying something different. It seems to me that you're claiming, contra me, that Lilly didn't quit on the team. I'll quote a couple lines of your post to show why I think this.

 

S4)

His poor performance after the home run wasn't because he lost his cool; he was pitching like crap the whole way through.

 

S5)

But yeah I guess you're probably right, Lilly just stopped trying after he gave up that home run.[/quote}

 

S4 is the key sentence. In it you argue that the runs he gave up after the home run had nothing to do, or very little, to do with losing his control. As I'll explain in a minute, I partially argee with that statement. But as I will also explain, I do believe that Lilly quit. Before we go further, let's note that S5, your concluding sentence, points to a confusing argument.

 

It sounds to me as though you're saying that since Lilly's reaction to the home run didn't cause him to give up runs (S4), he didn't quit. If that's really the argument, then I confess that I don't understand. Those two things, whether or not he quit and whether or not the runs he gave up were the product of his alleged quitting, seem to me to be at least partially independent. As a counterexample, I offer this:

 

S6)yeah, Tavarez walked another three batters, but he since he got out of the jam, it wasn't bad that he walked them.

 

the above statement seems to me to be patently wrong. please say so if we disagree about that, but I'll assume that you don't. It seems to me that this counterexample shows something important. Lilly's quitting, if he did quit, was bad whether or not it led to bad results. And if it was bad, I assume that it's legitimate to criticize...unless someone can come forward with a good excuse. However, it might be argued that since nothing bad actually resulted from it, it's pointless to criticize him for it. This amounts to saying that although Lilly's behavior can be neither justified nor excused, it's a waste of time to talk about it. But that position, I think, can be easily refuted by the following example:

 

S7) Sure, Tavarez gave up nine runs in the first and seventeen in the second, but since our offense scored thirty seven runs in the eighth, who cares?

 

Would anybody actually defend the position that criticising Tavarez's (hypothetical) S7 performance is nothing but nitpicking? Surely not. An important variation on that argument, though, is possible: perhaps a case like S7 shows that it's wrong to assume that inconsequential mistakes should never be criticized. But, mightn't it still be possible that one could offer too much criticism? Isn't it possible that someone might have done something wrong, and have no excuse, but nevertheless be blamed beyond all proportionality?

 

Yes. That is obviously possible, and maybe some of you will want to argue that I did precisely that. Noting that the propotionality argument admits that some degree of blame is appropriate, some of you might argue that I have been too severe in criticizing Lilly, despite the fact that he deserved at least some blame for the incident. In one way, I agree with this criticism of me: as I said above, my decision to include S3 was gratitous. In the sense that I repeated a negative accustation for purely rhetorical purposes, I think it's true that I was unfair. But in another sense, the sense that relates to my basic argument rather than my (lack of) style, I don't think I was being unfair at all. Before defending the judgment I made in the previous post, let me turn briefly to the clarification I mentioned all the way back at the beginning of this post.

 

Truffle, the position you attribute to me in your post is not actually my position. By all apperances you interpreted me to have claimed that Lilly quit after the HR and never again gave the kind of full, focused effort that he owed the team. I'm not sure that that's my actual position, and it definitely is NOT the position I was trying to assert in my post. I stress, though, that it's mostly my fault that you thought it was. I should have been much clearer.

 

The position I took in the above post was only that Lilly quit on the team after the HR, not that he never again gave his full effort. As evidence I offer the bolded parts of S1 and S2. At the time I wrote the post, I thought that those qualifying phrases were enough to make it clear that I was saying the he quit on the team for a period of time, but without specifying how long that period was. The position I wrote down above would be compatible with saying that Lilly had quit on the team when he was pitching to the first batter after the HR, but had recovered by the time he was facing the batter after that. Or that was still sulking when he faced the next two batters, but not by the time he faced the third. Or that he sulked for the rest of that inning but had regained perspective by the time he went out for the fourth.

 

To be honest, I'm unsure of how long he was "mentally checked out." While I am absolutely convinced that he was not focused on the first batter after the home run, I'm not completely sure how long it took him to restore focus, or even whether he restored focus at all. I simply couldn't tell for sure. If I had to guess, it was sometime during the third AB after the HR, but I was unsure at the time and haven't seen many replays. It did look to me like he got distracted again in the fourth (again, that is, if he had recovered latter in the third), but I'm not positive of that, either. And, while it's largely inconsequential to the disagreement we're having, for what it's worth I agree that Lilly would have given up more runs even had he been in his pre-HR mindset. I don't know that it would have been the same amount, but I'd be willing to agree that it probably would have been enough to doom us anyway.

 

 

Given my belief that Lilly quit or mentally deserted us for at least a few batters after the HR, I am prepared to defend my criticism of him against anybody who might be interested in arguing. It seems to me to go without saying that a pitcher whose focus shifts away from the batter he is facing deserves severe criticism, particularly in a crucial game in the playoffs. As I mentioned a few paragraphs back, it might still be possible to blame me for going to far in my criticism. Perhaps that's true. It's certainly unclear why I had to talk about both Lilly and the ready-to-quit Cubs fans in the same post. Perhaps some of my ire towards them filtered into my discussion of Lilly. But that would be a much humbler criticism of my position than anyone has so far offered.

 

 

Given my belief that Lilly quit or mentally deserted us for at least a few batters after the HR, I am prepared to defend my criticism of him against anybody who might be interested in arguing. It seems to me to go without saying that a pitcher whose focus shifts away from the batter he is facing deserves severe criticism, particularly in a crucial game in the playoffs. As I mentioned a few paragraphs back, it might still be possible to blame me for going to far in my criticism. Perhaps that's true. It's certainly unclear why I had to talk about both Lilly and the ready-to-quit Cubs fans in the same post. Perhaps some of my ire towards them filtered into my discussion of Lilly. But that is not say the basic point was flawed. For the reasons I've just typed out, I don't think that it was.

 

I would like to end by responding to one final criticism that you make of me, namely that I accused Lilly of not caring about the team. That is not my position, nor is it what I said in my post. In S1 and S2 I said that Lilly cared more about minimizing unpleasant feelings, and cared more about the pain than about the team. That is very different from saying that he did not care at all. That one thing is a priority over another does not demonstrate that the lower priority is unimportant. A nurse, for instance, might care very much about her health, but still care for a sick and very contagious person. That the nurse risks her health to care for the sick patient hardly shows that she does not care about her health. That Lilly cared, according to me, more about those other things than about his duty to his team, for whatever period of time he allowed himself to sulk, doesn't imply that he didn't care about the team. Also, I'm not saying that Lilly's "real" priority isn't the team. In fact, I think that Lilly "really" cares more about the team than about those other things, but that he lost sight of that tonight, for two batters or for six or nine, or however temporarily it was. I believe that he could have done better.

 

(casually) edited for grammar and spacing

 

geez, this is a message board, not an essay exam.