Ankiel and HGH

[The Voice of Reason]

Hey Faceman, thanks for the compliment over at Gateway. :lol: Got to disagree about Jimmy "The Diver" Edmonds though.

 

Faceman wrote:

ghostrunner wrote:

Even the NSBB folks are being pretty reasonable about it. It'll be interesting to see how the mass media handles it.

 

Those guys at NSBB are good baseball fans. A little jaded? Yes. But very knowledgeable and level headed, unless you wander into a game thread.

 

 

You're probably right, but over the years I've seen enough lame crap about Edmonds over there to turn me off.

Edited September 7, 2007 by The Voice of Reason

[reggiemiller rules]

the cardinal fans are being kind of lame, stop it

 

you can defend him or whatever, but let's not pretend he got a legit prescription for this stuff. that's ridiculous.

 

Yes it is.

 

Oh I agree with you guys here, I dont see why there would be any need for Ankiel to use HGH. All I am saying is if Ankiel had a prescription for it then which it looks like he did. Then it has yet to be proven how he has done anything illegal that broke either MLB or US laws. Now there is obviously a moral debate about if it was right or wrong no matter what the laws are. But that is all I have been trying to point out that so far nothing has come out that would warrant any sort of punishment.

 

What your failing to grasp is that the "perscription" might as well have come from Dr. Doolittle.

 

What is so hard for you to understand about what I am saying. I am saying that I dont agree with what he did but he didnt do anything illegal. If the doctor had a medical license and gave Ankiel a prescription then it wasnt illegal for Ankiel as far as I know. I will say it again he didnt deserve to have a prescription but he did therefore it wasnt illegal to use it no matter who the doctor is.

http://www.northcountrygazette.org/articles/020306BronxDoc.html

 

What are you talking about? Just because a doctor prescribes you something does not mean it's legal.

 

BRONX--- A New Jersey doctor has been indicted for illegally distributing the controlled substance hydrocodone by prescribing it in a manner inconsistent with accepted medical practice.

 

Based on what we know, HGH has very few legitimate medical uses -- at least legally. Rehabbing a baseball injury does not fit that bill. Essentially the same as that quoted paragraph.

 

Completely unrelated to Ankiel - but if I go to a doctor, and he prescribes me something that is illegal - that is on the DOCTOR, not ME, correct?

 

Again - forget about HGH. If I go to my normal doctor, he gives me something that isn't legal, I don't have to research the med to make sure it's legal right? That why doctors are certified, no?

 

Now back to Ankiel. Is it wrong, sure. Illegal? Probably not for him to get it, only for the doctor to prescribe it.

 

amazing. "it's not my fault! i know it's my own body and i should be concerned with what i put into it, but the doc said it's okay!"

 

everyone is so good at passing accountability off these days. take a damn stand and take responsibility for your own actions. you control the reigns on the road of life.

 

I cant speak for Faceman, but i know that Ankiel is in the wrong for taking them we are just now talking about if there is any right to punish him for anything. So we are just trying to say that he hasnt been proven to have broken and MLB rules and as far as we know no laws either.

[KyHen]

Completely unrelated to Ankiel - but if I go to a doctor, and he prescribes me something that is illegal - that is on the DOCTOR, not ME, correct?

 

Again - forget about HGH. If I go to my normal doctor, he gives me something that isn't legal, I don't have to research the med to make sure it's legal right? That why doctors are certified, no?

 

Now back to Ankiel. Is it wrong, sure. Illegal? Probably not for him to get it, only for the doctor to prescribe it.

Are you suggesting that Ankiel didn't seek HGH out, but instead the doctor gave it to him? That's the gist I'm getting from this post.

 

Is it way off-base? I don't really know what you're trying to get at (I'm dense).

[wondernorm]

Completely unrelated to Ankiel - but if I go to a doctor, and he prescribes me something that is illegal - that is on the DOCTOR, not ME, correct?

 

Again - forget about HGH. If I go to my normal doctor, he gives me something that isn't legal, I don't have to research the med to make sure it's legal right? That why doctors are certified, no?

 

Now back to Ankiel. Is it wrong, sure. Illegal? Probably not for him to get it, only for the doctor to prescribe it.

Are you suggesting that Ankiel didn't seek HGH out, but instead the doctor gave it to him? That's the gist I'm getting from this post.

 

Is it way off-base? I don't really know what you're trying to get at (I'm dense).

 

I think the point being made is that if Ankiel goes to the doctor, says "I need HGH," and the doctor prescribes it, as long as he didn't mislead the doctor the illegality it not on Ankiel, it is on the doctor.

 

Obviously this just reflects the legal position, not moral.

[The Voice of Reason]

The latest thoughts and clarifications Jayson Stark gave to Red Bird fans.

 

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=17112

 

Seth (Chicago): You knew this was coming... What should us Cardinal fans think about the Ankiel story? We don't want to cheer for a guy using PED's but we also really want to believe in this guy. What's your take? Thanks for taking the ?

 

Jayson Stark: (1:14 PM ET ) I can't believe it took three questions in to get to this. I have a lot of thoughts on this topic. And this is a tough forum to get to them all. But if you read the Daily News story, the evidence seemclear that Ankiel did order these drugs. The newspaper said it saw the order forms. And this is the same place where Rodney Harrison of the Patriots admitted to getting his HGH. So unfortunately, there does seem to be concrete evidence. This is not a situation where someone is conjecturing about what somebody might have done, based on how he changed in appearance or how his numbers changed. So that part is disturbing. It certainly punctures a hole in this guy's fairy tale. And suddenly, one of the best feel-good stories in sports doesn't feel so good.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grant (NYC: Punctures a hole? Come on! It was a legal prescription when there was no ban. This is a non-story!

 

Jayson Stark: (1:21 PM ET ) It's a non-story? How is it a non-story? I suggest you read it more carefully. It's NOT legal to get a prescription for HGH if you're not a patient of the doctor. And there has to be a specific medical purpose for a specific malady. The story quotes Gary Wadler of WADA saying there are very few legitimate medical reasons a healthy athlete in his 20s would need a prescription for HGH. And if this had taken place after 2005, I have no doubt that baseball would suspend him, much as the NFL did with Rodney Harrison. Now if you want to get into the inconsistency between how people react to a baseball player and a football player essentially being accused of the same offense, I'd be more sympathetic. But I completely disagree that it's a non-story.

[TruffleShuffle]

cardinal fans are really desperate to make this seem okay. It's not. But take comfort in the fact that most major leaguers are, or at least were, cheating at the time.

[wade]

So, Rick didn't go to the doctor for an annual and the doc said "man, you look rough, let me get you some HGH." Instead, he bought from an on-line pharmacy that's been busted for selling PED's illegally to athletes who have been suspended.

 

Sounds like a big misunderstanding to me. :D

 

If Rick just played football, he'd serve his suspension and the whole thing would blow over with little fanfare.

 

On the flipside, if he was about to break a hallowed record he'd probably be villified.

[Outshined_One]

It is kind of weird how NFL players receive comparatively little flack for juicing compared to MLB players. Most people will forget this happened with Rodney Harrison within the next week, but Ankiel now has a public black mark that'll follow him around for a long, long time.

 

I'd like to know the justification for this kind of media behavior, if anyone has any insight.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Let's put the he had a prescription so it's ok excuse to bed. The reason he had a prescription is because the pharmacy linked in the indictment had a doctor who would illegally prescribe these to anyone who wanted them.

 

This isn't the case of a doctor prescribing something and a patient believing it's ok because his trusted physician said so.

 

Imagine if a pharmacy found it could make an unbelievable amount of money by selling narcotics to addicts. They set up shop and then agree to split profits with a doctor who writes scripts for any addict who uses the service. While it's shady for the doctor and pharmacy, it's not any better on the addicts either.

[GoCubsGo1679625768]

Imagine if a pharmacy found it could make an unbelievable amount of money by selling narcotics to addicts. They set up shop and then agree to split profits with a doctor who writes scripts for any addict who uses the service. While it's shady for the doctor and pharmacy, it's not any better on the addicts either.

 

Man I need to find a setup like that.....I need some vicodin to be honest.

[Soul]

It is kind of weird how NFL players receive comparatively little flack for juicing compared to MLB players. Most people will forget this happened with Rodney Harrison within the next week, but Ankiel now has a public black mark that'll follow him around for a long, long time.

 

I'd like to know the justification for this kind of media behavior, if anyone has any insight.

 

I have none to offer.

 

But it doesn't excuse Ankiel (I know you aren't trying to).

[CuseCubFan69]

It is kind of weird how NFL players receive comparatively little flack for juicing compared to MLB players. Most people will forget this happened with Rodney Harrison within the next week, but Ankiel now has a public black mark that'll follow him around for a long, long time.

 

I'd like to know the justification for this kind of media behavior, if anyone has any insight.

 

I think part of it is that the NFL deals with it right away while baseball lets it loom for way too long making it a bigger. Think of the politicians that get caught doing something. The ones that say "yeah I did it" right away are usually forgiven pretty quickly but the ones that try to hide it and let it fester, face a longer public scrutiny.

[Faceman]

Hey Faceman, thanks for the compliment over at Gateway. :lol: Got to disagree about Jimmy "The Diver" Edmonds though.

 

Faceman wrote:

ghostrunner wrote:

Even the NSBB folks are being pretty reasonable about it. It'll be interesting to see how the mass media handles it.

 

Those guys at NSBB are good baseball fans. A little jaded? Yes. But very knowledgeable and level headed, unless you wander into a game thread.

 

You're probably right, but over the years I've seen enough lame crap about Edmonds over there to turn me off.

 

I hope you weren't being funny - I'm here to talk baseball with knowledgeable, passionate fans. Doesn't get much better than NSBB, despite the grief I have been giving you here today. You guys give Edmonds way too much crap but that is a small price to pay . . .

[KyHen]

"MLB Requests to Meet w/ Ankiel"

 

-- ESPN News Box

[Faceman]

Completely unrelated to Ankiel - but if I go to a doctor, and he prescribes me something that is illegal - that is on the DOCTOR, not ME, correct?

 

Again - forget about HGH. If I go to my normal doctor, he gives me something that isn't legal, I don't have to research the med to make sure it's legal right? That why doctors are certified, no?

 

Now back to Ankiel. Is it wrong, sure. Illegal? Probably not for him to get it, only for the doctor to prescribe it.

Are you suggesting that Ankiel didn't seek HGH out, but instead the doctor gave it to him? That's the gist I'm getting from this post.

 

Is it way off-base? I don't really know what you're trying to get at (I'm dense).

 

I'm saying that there is a reason that drugs are prescribed by doctors, cannot be bought by just anyone. Doctors are trained to diagnose health issues, and prescribe medicine for those issues. Patients are NOT expected to have that level of knowledge of the drug. That is why we have doctors.

 

Yes Ankiel knew that he was getting HGH. But if the doctor is the one who is accountable, why do we have doctors? I think the legal issue starts there.

[Post Count Padder]

I'm trying to find a link, but my friend said that they just announced on ESPN2 that Troy Glaus also received shipments of HGH.

[KyHen]

I'm trying to find a link, but my friend said that they just announced on ESPN2 that Troy Glaus also received shipments of HGH.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/09/07/drug.probe/index.html

[Faceman]

And by the way - just because I'm saying it's the doctor's liability more than anyone, he has the power to prescribe, I am NOT excusing Ankiel.

 

If guilty, he is as guilty as the rest of them. Unfortunately, guilty of nothing against the MLB rules.

[Soul]

Completely unrelated to Ankiel - but if I go to a doctor, and he prescribes me something that is illegal - that is on the DOCTOR, not ME, correct?

 

Again - forget about HGH. If I go to my normal doctor, he gives me something that isn't legal, I don't have to research the med to make sure it's legal right? That why doctors are certified, no?

 

Now back to Ankiel. Is it wrong, sure. Illegal? Probably not for him to get it, only for the doctor to prescribe it.

Are you suggesting that Ankiel didn't seek HGH out, but instead the doctor gave it to him? That's the gist I'm getting from this post.

 

Is it way off-base? I don't really know what you're trying to get at (I'm dense).

 

I'm saying that there is a reason that drugs are prescribed by doctors, cannot be bought by just anyone. Doctors are trained to diagnose health issues, and prescribe medicine for those issues. Patients are NOT expected to have that level of knowledge of the drug. That is why we have doctors.

 

Yes Ankiel knew that he was getting HGH. But if the doctor is the one who is accountable, why do we have doctors? I think the legal issue starts there.

 

I think you're wrong, and I'm pretty sure it would be a tough sell legally to suggest that responsibility for one's body is effectively turned over to an outside party by accepting a prescription slip.

[Post Count Padder]

I'm trying to find a link, but my friend said that they just announced on ESPN2 that Troy Glaus also received shipments of HGH.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/09/07/drug.probe/index.html

Thanks.

This is starting to get big.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Completely unrelated to Ankiel - but if I go to a doctor, and he prescribes me something that is illegal - that is on the DOCTOR, not ME, correct?

 

Again - forget about HGH. If I go to my normal doctor, he gives me something that isn't legal, I don't have to research the med to make sure it's legal right? That why doctors are certified, no?

 

Now back to Ankiel. Is it wrong, sure. Illegal? Probably not for him to get it, only for the doctor to prescribe it.

Are you suggesting that Ankiel didn't seek HGH out, but instead the doctor gave it to him? That's the gist I'm getting from this post.

 

Is it way off-base? I don't really know what you're trying to get at (I'm dense).

 

I'm saying that there is a reason that drugs are prescribed by doctors, cannot be bought by just anyone. Doctors are trained to diagnose health issues, and prescribe medicine for those issues. Patients are NOT expected to have that level of knowledge of the drug. That is why we have doctors.

 

Yes Ankiel knew that he was getting HGH. But if the doctor is the one who is accountable, why do we have doctors? I think the legal issue starts there.

 

That may be true if it involved your regular physician. However, with the way these pharmacy rings work and the way I'm understanding this case, this isn't what happened. This isn't a case of Ankiel being prescribed HGH by his doctor; it's more Ankiel seeking out a pharmacy to get HGH and the pharmacy has a doctor on hire to write these prescriptions. While that doesn't excuse the doctor or pharmacy, it certainly doesn't leave the "patient", and I use that term loosely, blameless.

 

As far as charging these people, usually they won't be. Ankiel likely won't be charged. But, that doesn't for once mean that he believed he had a valid medical reason that was legally ok for the use of this product. Ankiel, whether for rehab or performance, wanted to take something that is not allowed in this country to be used in that fashion. He did so and deserves all the scrutiny and scorn that will come forth.

[wade]

Completely unrelated to Ankiel - but if I go to a doctor, and he prescribes me something that is illegal - that is on the DOCTOR, not ME, correct?

 

Again - forget about HGH. If I go to my normal doctor, he gives me something that isn't legal, I don't have to research the med to make sure it's legal right? That why doctors are certified, no?

 

Now back to Ankiel. Is it wrong, sure. Illegal? Probably not for him to get it, only for the doctor to prescribe it.

Are you suggesting that Ankiel didn't seek HGH out, but instead the doctor gave it to him? That's the gist I'm getting from this post.

 

Is it way off-base? I don't really know what you're trying to get at (I'm dense).

 

I'm saying that there is a reason that drugs are prescribed by doctors, cannot be bought by just anyone. Doctors are trained to diagnose health issues, and prescribe medicine for those issues. Patients are NOT expected to have that level of knowledge of the drug. That is why we have doctors.

 

Yes Ankiel knew that he was getting HGH. But if the doctor is the one who is accountable, why do we have doctors? I think the legal issue starts there.

 

I think you're wrong, and I'm pretty sure it would be a tough sell legally to suggest that responsibility for one's body is effectively turned over to an outside party by accepting a prescription slip.

 

Especially if the prescription slip was obtained from an on-line pharmacy selling drugs illegally. You don't just stumble onto those.

[Soul]

I'm trying to find a link, but my friend said that they just announced on ESPN2 that Troy Glaus also received shipments of HGH.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/09/07/drug.probe/index.html

Thanks.

This is starting to get big.

 

Wow, yep.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Completely unrelated to Ankiel - but if I go to a doctor, and he prescribes me something that is illegal - that is on the DOCTOR, not ME, correct?

 

Again - forget about HGH. If I go to my normal doctor, he gives me something that isn't legal, I don't have to research the med to make sure it's legal right? That why doctors are certified, no?

 

Now back to Ankiel. Is it wrong, sure. Illegal? Probably not for him to get it, only for the doctor to prescribe it.

Are you suggesting that Ankiel didn't seek HGH out, but instead the doctor gave it to him? That's the gist I'm getting from this post.

 

Is it way off-base? I don't really know what you're trying to get at (I'm dense).

 

I'm saying that there is a reason that drugs are prescribed by doctors, cannot be bought by just anyone. Doctors are trained to diagnose health issues, and prescribe medicine for those issues. Patients are NOT expected to have that level of knowledge of the drug. That is why we have doctors.

 

Yes Ankiel knew that he was getting HGH. But if the doctor is the one who is accountable, why do we have doctors? I think the legal issue starts there.

 

I think you're wrong, and I'm pretty sure it would be a tough sell legally to suggest that responsibility for one's body is effectively turned over to an outside party by accepting a prescription slip.

 

Especially if the prescription slip was obtained from an on-line pharmacy selling drugs illegally. You don't just stumble onto those.

 

And especially if Ankiel's only dealings with this doctor was the receipt of that prescription.

[wade]

I think this is the same pharmacy that the wrestler got his stuff from. But I'm sure Rick didn't know what he was doing was wrong.