ITT, list crappy players who were good while Cardinals

[BDWeav71]

Yep, Bo Hart for a half a year. I'll stand by it.

 

He disappeared. Theriot continues to thrive at the major league level, the comparison doesn't fit.

 

Implying that an 88 OPS+ is "thriving" borders on a hyperbole.

 

His production is significantly down from his time with Chicago last year.

 

I'm not saying he sucks -- it's acceptable from a versatile middle infielder. But much like Bo Hart a few years ago, Theriot was playing way over his head in 2006.

 

As soon as i put "thrived' i knew what the response would be...

 

He certainly hasn't "thrived", but his numbers (as you have already conceded) are more than acceptable.

[Andy]

some of the answers in this thread are quite hilarious - Kennedy tops that list. Just awful. Crap look at Darryl Ward's weekend. . . it happens to everyone. Big Papi had next to no takers when he was a FA coming from Minnesota. This stuff happens.

DWard's 2 homers this weekend pushed his season HR/AB total to right around his career norms (he averages 1 every 30-40 AB, and he has 80 AB on the button this year).

 

KyHen, you posted a bunch of examples of terrible players who continued to be terrible on the Cards, which isn't really what we meant. Bad players playing bad is expected.

 

As for Reyes, you might have to give it time. It took Rich Hill nearly 2 full seasons to figure out how to go from AAAA pitcher to decent big leaguer. Hill, if you'll recall, tore up AAA as well.

[reggiemiller rules]

some of the answers in this thread are quite hilarious - Kennedy tops that list. Just awful. Crap look at Darryl Ward's weekend. . . it happens to everyone. Big Papi had next to no takers when he was a FA coming from Minnesota. This stuff happens.

DWard's 2 homers this weekend pushed his season HR/AB total to right around his career norms (he averages 1 every 30-40 AB, and he has 80 AB on the button this year).

 

KyHen, you posted a bunch of examples of terrible players who continued to be terrible on the Cards, which isn't really what we meant. Bad players playing bad is expected.

 

As for Reyes, you might have to give it time. It took Rich Hill nearly 2 full seasons to figure out how to go from AAAA pitcher to decent big leaguer. Hill, if you'll recall, tore up AAA as well.

 

Yes but something tells me that if in 2 years Reyes is pitching like Hill is this year there will be threads just like this saying how the Cards are lucky casue Reyes sucked the past few years but now is pitching well. I think that all Cards fans know that we have brought some players in that have outperformed their career norms. What most of us are trying to say is that every year there is players that do that on every team in the league.

[Andy]

some of the answers in this thread are quite hilarious - Kennedy tops that list. Just awful. Crap look at Darryl Ward's weekend. . . it happens to everyone. Big Papi had next to no takers when he was a FA coming from Minnesota. This stuff happens.

DWard's 2 homers this weekend pushed his season HR/AB total to right around his career norms (he averages 1 every 30-40 AB, and he has 80 AB on the button this year).

 

KyHen, you posted a bunch of examples of terrible players who continued to be terrible on the Cards, which isn't really what we meant. Bad players playing bad is expected.

 

As for Reyes, you might have to give it time. It took Rich Hill nearly 2 full seasons to figure out how to go from AAAA pitcher to decent big leaguer. Hill, if you'll recall, tore up AAA as well.

 

Yes but something tells me that if in 2 years Reyes is pitching like Hill is this year there will be threads just like this saying how the Cards are lucky casue Reyes sucked the past few years but now is pitching well. I think that all Cards fans know that we have brought some players in that have outperformed their career norms. What most of us are trying to say is that every year there is players that do that on every team in the league.

I can't think of a single example of an STL prospect coming up, struggling at first, then getting good and myself (at least) being upset about it. I do remember being upset that Pujols and Duncan (particularly Duncan since he got his first regular action at age 26) came up and immediately tore it up.

[KyHen]

some of the answers in this thread are quite hilarious - Kennedy tops that list. Just awful. Crap look at Darryl Ward's weekend. . . it happens to everyone. Big Papi had next to no takers when he was a FA coming from Minnesota. This stuff happens.

DWard's 2 homers this weekend pushed his season HR/AB total to right around his career norms (he averages 1 every 30-40 AB, and he has 80 AB on the button this year).

 

KyHen, you posted a bunch of examples of terrible players who continued to be terrible on the Cards, which isn't really what we meant. Bad players playing bad is expected.

 

As for Reyes, you might have to give it time. It took Rich Hill nearly 2 full seasons to figure out how to go from AAAA pitcher to decent big leaguer. Hill, if you'll recall, tore up AAA as well.

 

Yes but something tells me that if in 2 years Reyes is pitching like Hill is this year there will be threads just like this saying how the Cards are lucky casue Reyes sucked the past few years but now is pitching well. I think that all Cards fans know that we have brought some players in that have outperformed their career norms. What most of us are trying to say is that every year there is players that do that on every team in the league.

I can't think of a single example of an STL prospect coming up, struggling at first, then getting good and myself (at least) being upset about it. I do remember being upset that Pujols and Duncan (particularly Duncan since he got his first regular action at age 26) came up and immediately tore it up.

Well then kudos for being rational in that regard. That's more than I can say for 80% of the posts in this topic (or every post pertaining to this absurd notion).

[wolf stansson]

The whole secret to this inaccurate perception is that Jocketty is more willing to take on reclamation projects than Hendry or other gm's.

 

He'll sign 5-6 projects a year, throw them against the wall and see who sticks.

 

Spring training weeds most of them out, early season performance gets the rest, then all you're left with is Ryan Franklin, Cal Eldred, Chris Carpenter etc.

[Soul]

The whole secret to this inaccurate perception is that Jocketty is more willing to take on reclamation projects than Hendry or other gm's.

 

He'll sign 5-6 projects a year, throw them against the wall and see who sticks.

 

Spring training weeds most of them out, early season performance gets the rest, then all you're left with is Ryan Franklin, Cal Eldred, Chris Carpenter etc.

 

Projects should never turn into Chris Carpenter. He's another good example of this. Carp was mired in mediocrity in TOR -- his ERA+ from those days looks pretty much like Marquis to me. 91, 106, 112, 79, 116, 85......just bobbing up above the 100 mark occasionally, and then tanking well below in other seasons.

 

Then he comes off devastating arm surgery to put up this: 121, 151, 143.

 

Mediocre pitcher, devastating arm surgery........then suddenly Cy Young?? Who else has ever done this?

[KyHen]

The whole secret to this inaccurate perception is that Jocketty is more willing to take on reclamation projects than Hendry or other gm's.

 

He'll sign 5-6 projects a year, throw them against the wall and see who sticks.

 

Spring training weeds most of them out, early season performance gets the rest, then all you're left with is Ryan Franklin, Cal Eldred, Chris Carpenter etc.

 

Projects should never turn into Chris Carpenter. He's another good example of this. Carp was mired in mediocrity in TOR -- his ERA+ from those days looks pretty much like Marquis to me. 91, 106, 112, 79, 116, 85......just bobbing up above the 100 mark occasionally, and then tanking well below in other seasons.

 

Then he comes off devastating arm surgery to put up this: 121, 151, 143.

 

Mediocre pitcher, devastating arm surgery........then suddenly Cy Young?? Who else has ever done this?

 

Jason Marquis clearly does not have the repertoire that Chris Carpenter does.

[Guest]

The whole secret to this inaccurate perception is that Jocketty is more willing to take on reclamation projects than Hendry or other gm's.

 

He'll sign 5-6 projects a year, throw them against the wall and see who sticks.

 

Spring training weeds most of them out, early season performance gets the rest, then all you're left with is Ryan Franklin, Cal Eldred, Chris Carpenter etc.

 

Projects should never turn into Chris Carpenter. He's another good example of this. Carp was mired in mediocrity in TOR -- his ERA+ from those days looks pretty much like Marquis to me. 91, 106, 112, 79, 116, 85......just bobbing up above the 100 mark occasionally, and then tanking well below in other seasons.

 

Then he comes off devastating arm surgery to put up this: 121, 151, 143.

 

Mediocre pitcher, devastating arm surgery........then suddenly Cy Young?? Who else has ever done this?

 

It's not at all shocking that Carpenter rebounded as well as he did. He had great stuff before surgery, was a first round pick and a solid prospect.

 

I'm with abuck.

[Handlebar McSkullet]

Lou Brock

 

Oh yeah, and the maddening thing about Brock was he wasn't very good with us at all. Then he goes from us to the Cards, mid-season, and it wasn't like he waited for another year or two of development to kick in. Oh no, that would be too logical. Instead he starts tearing up for the Cards immediately, and really never looked back.

 

Brock never hit over 100 OPS+ for us, ever. He didn't dip under 100 OPS+ for the Cards until 1977, well into his senior years as a pro. And he went from 77 to 146 midseason, magically, in his trade year.

 

If there was ever an example of this, it's Brock. Good call.

 

i just accepted that brock was this mega superstar in the making and we traded him away for a box of peanuts and a rubberband.. the truth when I actually looked at numbers and read more about it was that brock was a middling prospect who couldnt hit and couldnt field for us and we traded him straight up for a 20 game winner who just happened to hurt himself.

[Andy]

Lou Brock

 

Oh yeah, and the maddening thing about Brock was he wasn't very good with us at all. Then he goes from us to the Cards, mid-season, and it wasn't like he waited for another year or two of development to kick in. Oh no, that would be too logical. Instead he starts tearing up for the Cards immediately, and really never looked back.

 

Brock never hit over 100 OPS+ for us, ever. He didn't dip under 100 OPS+ for the Cards until 1977, well into his senior years as a pro. And he went from 77 to 146 midseason, magically, in his trade year.

 

If there was ever an example of this, it's Brock. Good call.

 

i just accepted that brock was this mega superstar in the making and we traded him away for a box of peanuts and a rubberband.. the truth when I actually looked at numbers and read more about it was that brock was a middling prospect who couldnt hit and couldnt field for us and we traded him straight up for a 20 game winner who just happened to hurt himself.

Yeah, regardless of the Cardinals' true or perceived luck, the Lou Brock deal is quite possibly one of the all-time most unfairly labeled "lopsided" deals. Brock was complete crap with the Cubs and showed no sign of getting any better till he left.

[Soul]

The whole secret to this inaccurate perception is that Jocketty is more willing to take on reclamation projects than Hendry or other gm's.

 

He'll sign 5-6 projects a year, throw them against the wall and see who sticks.

 

Spring training weeds most of them out, early season performance gets the rest, then all you're left with is Ryan Franklin, Cal Eldred, Chris Carpenter etc.

 

Projects should never turn into Chris Carpenter. He's another good example of this. Carp was mired in mediocrity in TOR -- his ERA+ from those days looks pretty much like Marquis to me. 91, 106, 112, 79, 116, 85......just bobbing up above the 100 mark occasionally, and then tanking well below in other seasons.

 

Then he comes off devastating arm surgery to put up this: 121, 151, 143.

 

Mediocre pitcher, devastating arm surgery........then suddenly Cy Young?? Who else has ever done this?

 

It's not at all shocking that Carpenter rebounded as well as he did. He had great stuff before surgery, was a first round pick and a solid prospect.

 

I'm with abuck.

 

How dare you side against me!!

 

J/K, I know he had great stuff. Lots of guys have great stuff though, and don't make it.

 

Here's what I wish: that we were smart enough to pick up Carp instead of the Cards 8-) Not the follow-up deal, though...

[abuck1220]

 

I'm with abuck.

 

words to live by. probably should be your sig.

 

seriously though, can we quit whining about luck for a while? the cubs just won two games they should have lost and they miss webb this weekend. if the brewers had missed webb and won two games in two days in their last ab, this board would probably explode into the biggest pity party of all time...i mean, it practically crashed when gabe gross went 2-4 or whatever.

[Soul]

 

I'm with abuck.

 

words to live by. probably should be your sig.

 

seriously though, can we quit whining about luck for a while? the cubs just won two games they should have lost and they miss webb this weekend. if the brewers had missed webb and won two games in two days in their last ab, this board would probably explode into the biggest pity party of all time...i mean, it practically crashed when gabe gross went 2-4 or whatever.

 

Alright, I'll quit whining.

[Guest]

 

I'm with abuck.

 

words to live by. probably should be your sig.

 

I feel dirty.

[wolf stansson]

Brock was complete crap with the Cubs and showed no sign of getting any better till he left.

Well Buck O'Neil and Ernie Banks didn't hold up any signs, but they were very vocal that Lou could be a super star and that the Cubs "college of managers" were misusing him in a run producing role.

[Andy]

Brock was complete crap with the Cubs and showed no sign of getting any better till he left.

Well Buck O'Neil and Ernie Banks didn't hold up any signs, but they were very vocal that Lou could be a super star and that the Cubs "college of managers" were misusing him in a run producing role.

Brock's OBP with the Cubs:

 

.319 in 1962

.300 in 1963

.300 in 1964 until traded (215 AB)

 

Stolen bases with the Cubs:

 

16/23 in 1962 (69.6)

24/36 in 1963 (66.7)

10/13 in 1964 until traded (215 AB) (76.9)

 

No matter what role the Cubs were using him in, he was sucking at it. Flat-out terrible. Neifi-esque hitting and base-stealing rates (in 62 and 63) that statistically were hurting his team.

[Rob]

Gregg Jefferies had an OBP of .408 and .391 in the two seasons he was with the Cards.