The Fight...Part #3

[BigbadB]

I doubt that Young really wanted to hit Lee in the head. It's possible he just wanted to send a message by making him hit the deck, and the pitch went further inside than he planned. It's also possible that he meant to hit him in the rib cage and the pitch ended up higher than he planned.

 

I have no doubt it was a purpose pitch. I just doubt he really went head hunting. But, that's what ended up happening and the unfortunate thing is that Lee's suspension will be more damaging than Young's. And that's just wrong.

[sandberg23]

Both teams will/have already been warned about today. What will happen if Maddux 75mph pitch some how gets a way from him, hits a Cub on the shin? Will Maddux be ejected?

 

Just because warnings are given doesn't mean the umps automatically eject players...they eject with discretion. Given that scenario, I think the umps leave him in.

 

And, I can see Maddux hitting someone but I think he'd do it where he's "supposed" to...hip, butt, etc and do it with a soft pitch and only if deemed necessary by the Cubs hitting someone. I don't think he'll go out there and start throwing bean balls. He's too smart to for that.

[Abe Frohman]

IF Maddux were dumb enough to throw at a Cub today, at least he would do it the right way and hit him in the butt or leg - above the knee where it wouldn't hurt the player.

[cubfan]

I doubt that Young really wanted to hit Lee in the head. It's possible he just wanted to send a message by making him hit the deck, and the pitch went further inside than he planned. It's also possible that he meant to hit him in the rib cage and the pitch ended up higher than he planned.

 

I have no doubt it was a purpose pitch. I just doubt he really went head hunting. But, that's what ended up happening and the unfortunate thing is that Lee's suspension will be more damaging than Young's. And that's just wrong.

 

I doubt he wanted to hit Lee in the head either. But I do think he was wanting to hit him high in the ribs and the ball got away from him a little bit. When making a point, it would be best to throw at a hip so if you miss by a little it will hit the ribs or thigh. That was at least the way I was taught. It is surprising how much harder it is to throw a ball that far out of the strike zone where you want it to go than one thrown in the strike zone. I never had the best control to start out with though so maybe that just applied to me :)

[BigbadB]

I doubt that Young really wanted to hit Lee in the head. It's possible he just wanted to send a message by making him hit the deck, and the pitch went further inside than he planned. It's also possible that he meant to hit him in the rib cage and the pitch ended up higher than he planned.

 

I have no doubt it was a purpose pitch. I just doubt he really went head hunting. But, that's what ended up happening and the unfortunate thing is that Lee's suspension will be more damaging than Young's. And that's just wrong.

 

I doubt he wanted to hit Lee in the head either. But I do think he was wanting to hit him high in the ribs and the ball got away from him a little bit. When making a point, it would be best to throw at a hip so if you miss by a little it will hit the ribs or thigh. That was at least the way I was taught. It is surprising how much harder it is to throw a ball that far out of the strike zone where you want it to go than one thrown in the strike zone. I never had the best control to start out with though so maybe that just applied to me :)

 

Exactly. It's actually quite entertaining sometimes watching a pitcher intentionally walk a guy. They couldn't hit the catcher's mitt from 10 feet away.

 

It was definitely a purpose pitch. The umps should have tossed Young on the spot. Young's 95 MPH heater at Lee's head was much worse than Lilly's 83 MPH curve ball off of Renteria's shin.

[Soul]

I doubt that Young really wanted to hit Lee in the head. It's possible he just wanted to send a message by making him hit the deck, and the pitch went further inside than he planned. It's also possible that he meant to hit him in the rib cage and the pitch ended up higher than he planned.

 

I have no doubt it was a purpose pitch. I just doubt he really went head hunting. But, that's what ended up happening and the unfortunate thing is that Lee's suspension will be more damaging than Young's. And that's just wrong.

 

I doubt he wanted to hit Lee in the head either. But I do think he was wanting to hit him high in the ribs and the ball got away from him a little bit. When making a point, it would be best to throw at a hip so if you miss by a little it will hit the ribs or thigh. That was at least the way I was taught. It is surprising how much harder it is to throw a ball that far out of the strike zone where you want it to go than one thrown in the strike zone. I never had the best control to start out with though so maybe that just applied to me :)

 

Exactly. It's actually quite entertaining sometimes watching a pitcher intentionally walk a guy. They couldn't hit the catcher's mitt from 10 feet away.

 

It was definitely a purpose pitch. The umps should have tossed Young on the spot. Young's 95 MPH heater at Lee's head was much worse than Lilly's 83 MPH curve ball off of Renteria's shin.

 

I find it interesting that when Lilly hits someone the ump was "watching for it the whole time"

 

But when Young head hunts Lee, the ump apparently has no clue about the history from the day before, and indeed doesn't even pay attention to Lee & Young after the play, instead jawboning with the catcher.

 

We're definitely getting the bad end of these deals this year, and it's costing us games. We can argue that the Cubs should cool down and just play better baseball, and that's of course quite true, but I don't see the Cubs doing anything out of the ordinary when it comes to responding to being hit. Yet we're being taken out of games because of it and I don't recall other teams suffering the same fate.

 

So I don't know, I'm just not feeling like we're getting a fair shake this year.

[98navigator]

I doubt Hill or Maddux will play beanball tomorrow. Hill might, but not Maddux.

 

If it happens, expect it from a reliever.

 

LOL, I'm not convinced that Maddux wouldn't but I don't think either starter will.

Maddux wont. And if he does, it wouldnt hurt.

 

I think Maddux would if needed, but it would be at the players hip or ribs and no higher. There are times when it is appropriate to throw at some one but it is never appropriate to throw any where near someones head.

 

I just don't see Maddux doing it because (maybe i'm naive, but) I think he has a great enough respect not only for this team, but people such as Lee that he wouldn't throw at us.

 

If someone from the Padres hits us, it's gonna be a guy from the Pen.

 

Maddux has thrown at hitters in the past so you can't assume that he wouldn't do it again. That being said, if anyone gets hit intentionally today, the odds are great that the pitcher will be out of the bullpen.

[98navigator]

IF Maddux were dumb enough to throw at a Cub today, at least he would do it the right way and hit him in the butt or leg - above the knee where it wouldn't hurt the player.

 

Maddux has drilled guys in the ribs before.

[BigbadB]

Considering what Peavy said in the paper the previous day, warnings probably should have been issued before the game even started.

 

Maybe all 4 umps were completely unaware of the remarks made by Peavy, but someone could have mentioned it at one point or another. Maybe Lou could have said something to the umpiring crew during the exchange of line up cards or even during BP.

 

Of course, the warnings may not have prevented what happened from actually happening, but maybe Young's suspension might be lengthened by disregarding an umpire's warning.

[98navigator]

Considering what Peavy said in the paper the previous day, warnings probably should have been issued before the game even started.

 

Maybe all 4 umps were completely unaware of the remarks made by Peavy, but someone could have mentioned it at one point or another. Maybe Lou could have said something to the umpiring crew during the exchange of line up cards or even during BP.

 

Of course, the warnings may not have prevented what happened from actually happening, but maybe Young's suspension might be lengthened by disregarding an umpire's warning.

 

 

The umpires were all aware of the comments before the game. They didn't handle the situation very well.

 

Suntimes.com

 

Crew chief Gerry Davis said the umpires also were aware of the statements, although Davis said they didn't believe Young was intentionally throwing at Lee.

 

''We pay quite a bit of attention to it,'' Davis said. ''We have to be aware of those situations, and we were. We have to determine if we feel those types of things are intentional or not.

 

''We didn't feel that Young's pitch was intentional, but after that, because of the melee, obviously we issued warnings.''

[Transmogrified Tiger]

You didn't think it was intentional?! Where's Jim Wolf's mindreader bullcrap when you need it? Edited June 17, 2007 by Transmogrified Tiger

[BigbadB]

You didn't think it was intentional?! Where's Jim Wolf's mindreader bullcrap when you need it?

 

Yeah, I really don't understand that part.

 

I don't know if the Padres could have telegraphed it any more obviously.

[CubColtPacer]

You didn't think it was intentional?! Where's Jim Wolf's mindreader bullcrap when you need it?

 

Yeah, I really don't understand that part.

 

I don't know if the Padres could have telegraphed it any more obviously.

 

Well, they could have hit Soriano on the first pitch of the game like the Braves did. Oh wait, that one was called unintentional as well.

[Guest]

Hahaha, got to love umps and their mindreading abilities. Quit trying to brush past the fact that you screwed up by talking to the catcher instead of walking with Lee.

[soccer10k]

Hahaha, got to love umps and their mindreading abilities. Quit trying to brush past the fact that you screwed up by talking to the catcher instead of walking with Lee.

 

Yeah, at least Jim Wolf got in front of Renteria last weekend.

[jjgman21]

My only thoughts on this issue are this:

 

Those of you who have called Lee an idiot for doing what he did have lost your grip on reality.

 

He just saw a pitch that was somewhere in the vicinity of 80-90mph thrown at his head and then had the same pitcher tell him (as seems to be the general consensus) that he's going to do it again. I would have punched him too. At that point in time, I don't care who you are, you're going to lose control and start swinging.

 

There is no way that you can expect ANYONE to be able to keep their calm and keep the teams best interests in mind while in the situation Lee was in today. Lee is only human, all be it one of the best.

 

 

 

Michael Jordan did not punch Danny Ferry. he never punched any Piston, he never punched any Knick, he never punched anyone on the Heat. he never punched anyone. no matter how hard they hit him, no matter how many times they hammered him in mid-air, and trashed talked about it afterwords, he didn't punch them back, no matter how many times it was deserved.

 

you know what he did? he had Stan Livingston and Will Purdue and Scott Williams take care of the dirty work for him. don't sit there and tell me that adult human males are incapable of showing restraint in that situation and that in so doing it was keeping the teams best interest in mind.

 

I don't blame Lee for throwing a punch, but the insinuations that it was uncontrollable or good for the team or the right thing to do or morally superior to others actions are just insane.

 

 

at some point someone has to be the 'mature baseball professional.' Soriano has to at the very least be a little more discrete in his celebration. Peavy has to shut his punk mouth. the Pads manager has to tell his team to suck it up and get payback on the field, not in the papers or with beanballs. Chris Young has to not be Peavys puppet and just go about the business of winning baseball games, not evening scores and being a punk when he does so. and Derrick Lee has to take it like a man, go to first, and get his revenge with his play.

 

if any one of these idiots just acted like a 'mature professional' it wouldn't have gotten as far as it did. of all people, the one who wasn't a total fricken idiot is David Wells, who said he didn't even see Soriano's dance and he'd have to file it away. that's how you handle it. you wait until the next time you face the perpetrator, and even the score personally, either through getting him out and showing him up, or with a harmless beanball at the hip.

 

I dont disagree with what you say about Peavy or Wells, but as it has been pointed out already, Jordan DID throw punches.

 

It's just a fact that sometimes, when you feel you have been so wronged (or in this case, your safety has been endangered), there is no way you can expect any man to think about 'the team.' Lee did what anybody would do in that situation. Was it right? No, but you can't fault him for snapping at that moment.

 

you're missing the point. the point is there were literally hundreds of times where Jordan was brought to the point of anger like Derrick Lee, and literally hundreds of times he did not throw a punch he wanted to throw.

 

quit saying 'anybody would do it' when Jordan is only one of hundreds of millions of people on the face of the earth who have repeatedly shown the ability to restrain themselves. we are talking about voluntary actions that take volition and aforethought.

 

maybe in your gangsta rap ferry tale world the compulsion to be violent is involuntary, but it's not in the real world.

[Illini Iceman]

My only thoughts on this issue are this:

 

Those of you who have called Lee an idiot for doing what he did have lost your grip on reality.

 

He just saw a pitch that was somewhere in the vicinity of 80-90mph thrown at his head and then had the same pitcher tell him (as seems to be the general consensus) that he's going to do it again. I would have punched him too. At that point in time, I don't care who you are, you're going to lose control and start swinging.

 

There is no way that you can expect ANYONE to be able to keep their calm and keep the teams best interests in mind while in the situation Lee was in today. Lee is only human, all be it one of the best.

 

 

 

Michael Jordan did not punch Danny Ferry. he never punched any Piston, he never punched any Knick, he never punched anyone on the Heat. he never punched anyone. no matter how hard they hit him, no matter how many times they hammered him in mid-air, and trashed talked about it afterwords, he didn't punch them back, no matter how many times it was deserved.

 

you know what he did? he had Stan Livingston and Will Purdue and Scott Williams take care of the dirty work for him. don't sit there and tell me that adult human males are incapable of showing restraint in that situation and that in so doing it was keeping the teams best interest in mind.

 

I don't blame Lee for throwing a punch, but the insinuations that it was uncontrollable or good for the team or the right thing to do or morally superior to others actions are just insane.

 

 

at some point someone has to be the 'mature baseball professional.' Soriano has to at the very least be a little more discrete in his celebration. Peavy has to shut his punk mouth. the Pads manager has to tell his team to suck it up and get payback on the field, not in the papers or with beanballs. Chris Young has to not be Peavys puppet and just go about the business of winning baseball games, not evening scores and being a punk when he does so. and Derrick Lee has to take it like a man, go to first, and get his revenge with his play.

 

if any one of these idiots just acted like a 'mature professional' it wouldn't have gotten as far as it did. of all people, the one who wasn't a total fricken idiot is David Wells, who said he didn't even see Soriano's dance and he'd have to file it away. that's how you handle it. you wait until the next time you face the perpetrator, and even the score personally, either through getting him out and showing him up, or with a harmless beanball at the hip.

 

I dont disagree with what you say about Peavy or Wells, but as it has been pointed out already, Jordan DID throw punches.

 

It's just a fact that sometimes, when you feel you have been so wronged (or in this case, your safety has been endangered), there is no way you can expect any man to think about 'the team.' Lee did what anybody would do in that situation. Was it right? No, but you can't fault him for snapping at that moment.

 

you're missing the point. the point is there were literally hundreds of times where Jordan was brought to the point of anger like Derrick Lee, and literally hundreds of times he did not throw a punch he wanted to throw.

 

quit saying 'anybody would do it' when Jordan is only one of hundreds of millions of people on the face of the earth who have repeatedly shown the ability to restrain themselves. we are talking about voluntary actions that take volition and aforethought.

 

maybe in your gangsta rap ferry tale world the compulsion to be violent is involuntary, but it's not in the real world.

 

Is the gangsta rap ferry a new ride at Disney?

 

Anyway, Lee probably also has also been upset a lot as well and not snapped. I am not so sure about "literally hundreds of times" as I watched a lot of Bulls basketball during the Jordan era and don't remember it being a nightly problem. But I will leave it at "a bunch of times" and get your point. People have given examples of times when MJ did "lose it" and now there is ONE example of Lee doing the same. Therefore, the fact that there were many times that MJ did not do it does not make him any better than Lee since he has snapped at least as many times (once) as Lee has so far in his career.

[Roast]

 

maybe in your gangsta rap ferry tale world the compulsion to be violent is involuntary, but it's not in the real world.

 

That may be the most ignorant thing I have ever read on this message board.

 

But aside from that, I understand what you're trying to say. But your comparison to Jordan isn't entirely fair, for a couple different reasons.

 

One, I dont consider being slammed to the floor quite as terrible an offense as having a 90mph fastball thrown at your head. Being slammed to the floor can injure you, being hit in the head with a ball that fast can kill you.

 

Two, to a lesser extent, baseball is MUCH less of a contact sport then is basketball. That effects the situation because you're used to a little bit more contact in basketball. People bump into people a lot more often, and thus the players are most likely more used to it.

 

Maybe there are people out there that can have a hard object thrown at their head at 90mph and keep their cool when someone says they're going to do it again, but you can't expect that. And that's what I said, I said you can't expect anyone to be able to keep their calm in that situation. Maybe there is someone out there who can, well good for them, they are calm on a level that many people on this planet will never be, but you can't expect someone to go through what Lee went through and then not retaliate.

[bhogg]

I have only one thing to say. . . .

 

Will Perdue, ENFORCER!

 

http://www.capstoneconsulting.com/clubbers/images/news/perdue_nba.jpg

[Amazing_Grace]

My only thoughts on this issue are this:

 

Those of you who have called Lee an idiot for doing what he did have lost your grip on reality.

 

He just saw a pitch that was somewhere in the vicinity of 80-90mph thrown at his head and then had the same pitcher tell him (as seems to be the general consensus) that he's going to do it again. I would have punched him too. At that point in time, I don't care who you are, you're going to lose control and start swinging.

 

There is no way that you can expect ANYONE to be able to keep their calm and keep the teams best interests in mind while in the situation Lee was in today. Lee is only human, all be it one of the best.

 

 

 

Michael Jordan did not punch Danny Ferry. he never punched any Piston, he never punched any Knick, he never punched anyone on the Heat. he never punched anyone. no matter how hard they hit him, no matter how many times they hammered him in mid-air, and trashed talked about it afterwords, he didn't punch them back, no matter how many times it was deserved.

 

you know what he did? he had Stan Livingston and Will Purdue and Scott Williams take care of the dirty work for him. don't sit there and tell me that adult human males are incapable of showing restraint in that situation and that in so doing it was keeping the teams best interest in mind.

 

I don't blame Lee for throwing a punch, but the insinuations that it was uncontrollable or good for the team or the right thing to do or morally superior to others actions are just insane.

 

 

at some point someone has to be the 'mature baseball professional.' Soriano has to at the very least be a little more discrete in his celebration. Peavy has to shut his punk mouth. the Pads manager has to tell his team to suck it up and get payback on the field, not in the papers or with beanballs. Chris Young has to not be Peavys puppet and just go about the business of winning baseball games, not evening scores and being a punk when he does so. and Derrick Lee has to take it like a man, go to first, and get his revenge with his play.

 

if any one of these idiots just acted like a 'mature professional' it wouldn't have gotten as far as it did. of all people, the one who wasn't a total fricken idiot is David Wells, who said he didn't even see Soriano's dance and he'd have to file it away. that's how you handle it. you wait until the next time you face the perpetrator, and even the score personally, either through getting him out and showing him up, or with a harmless beanball at the hip.

 

I dont disagree with what you say about Peavy or Wells, but as it has been pointed out already, Jordan DID throw punches.

 

It's just a fact that sometimes, when you feel you have been so wronged (or in this case, your safety has been endangered), there is no way you can expect any man to think about 'the team.' Lee did what anybody would do in that situation. Was it right? No, but you can't fault him for snapping at that moment.

 

you're missing the point. the point is there were literally hundreds of times where Jordan was brought to the point of anger like Derrick Lee, and literally hundreds of times he did not throw a punch he wanted to throw.

 

quit saying 'anybody would do it' when Jordan is only one of hundreds of millions of people on the face of the earth who have repeatedly shown the ability to restrain themselves. we are talking about voluntary actions that take volition and aforethought.

 

maybe in your gangsta rap ferry tale world the compulsion to be violent is involuntary, but it's not in the real world.

 

Is the gangsta rap ferry a new ride at Disney?

 

Anyway, Lee probably also has also been upset a lot as well and not snapped. I am not so sure about "literally hundreds of times" as I watched a lot of Bulls basketball during the Jordan era and don't remember it being a nightly problem. But I will leave it at "a bunch of times" and get your point. People have given examples of times when MJ did "lose it" and now there is ONE example of Lee doing the same. Therefore, the fact that there were many times that MJ did not do it does not make him any better than Lee since he has snapped at least as many times (once) as Lee has so far in his career.

 

Maybe the gangsta rap ferry is like a ferry boat across a river somewhere where they play nothing but rap music and there's a rapper up in the wheelhouse doing that record scratchy thing....:-k

 

I'm having trouble getting my head around that one too.

[Andy]

All I know is that the 2007 Chicago Cubs are a living breathing example of the bad umpiring in MLB lately. From the hideous home opener with Hoye/Boyd blatantly screwing us on the corners, to Froemming and Wegner teaming up to get Lou suspended for a seemingly unprecedented 4 games, to Wolf mind-reading Ted Lilly even though his own crew chief was not blessed with psychosomatic abilities, to today's events, the Cubs have been involved, for better and (mostly) for worse, in some ridiculous exhibitions of umpiring.

[Fred Hornkohl]

All I know is that the 2007 Chicago Cubs are a living breathing example of the bad umpiring in MLB lately. From the hideous home opener with Hoye/Boyd blatantly screwing us on the corners, to Froemming and Wegner teaming up to get Lou suspended for a seemingly unprecedented 4 games, to Wolf mind-reading Ted Lilly even though his own crew chief was not blessed with psychosomatic abilities, to today's events, the Cubs have been involved, for better and (mostly) for worse, in some ridiculous exhibitions of umpiring.

 

Love the hyperbole.... but man, get a dictionary !!!

[soapy]

I think those saying Lee over reacted are possibly under estimating what it must be like to have a 90 MPH fastball come at your head/face and then have the culprit of the pitch laugh it off. I only got as far as HS baseball and didn't have a 90 MPH at my head, but I took one about 80 MPH off the helmet on a pitch I was sure was intentional (I was the starting pitcher and had hit their best player the previous inning).

 

Honestly, that pitcher could have stood there and said nothing, but I was still going after him. That's a far cry from the situation/responsibility a MLB star like Lee faces obviously, but I can at least appreciate what he might of been thinking on some (small) level.

 

I'm quite sure he wasn't thinking clearly and I think it's understandable.

[macuser2]

I just found this over at 1060 West:

 

if and when that has become true, this society -- not just the sport, but the society of which it is a mirror -- has become even more dismal a degradation than this writer considers it. it is difficult and horrifying enough to comprehend the gradual but perverse rise of the death cult in the third generation of sport in versions primitive and mechanized without quietly tolerating it backing and filling in the first (ie, soccer, baseball, college football and tennis) and second (ie, pro football, basketball and hockey) generations of sport-as-entertainment. this writer sees the second-generation sports to have already been lost to the fray within the last twenty years. when baseball -- whose decay is already marked and unnerving -- also finally and fully acquiesces, yours truly will quit with sport entirely. football as it is isn't fit for dogs, in the opinion hereabouts; when baseball too gives it up for blood and vanity, there's nothing in it sufficiently redeeming to merit continued interest.

 

This guy needs to get off his "high horse." He must spend his spare time memorizing Oswald Spengler's The Decline of the West; he probably also has a PhD. He certainly writes like one. I ought to know, I have been on a university faculty for 30 years.

 

I wished that Derek Lee hadn't taken that swing at the guy, but he did. Even the best of us can occaisionally lose it. Under the same circumstances I might have done the same; I am only human after all, and so is Derek Lee.

 

Maybe I have over reacted. Aw who really gives a *&^%. You can find the target of my rant here.

Edited June 18, 2007 by macuser2

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I just found this over at 1060 West:

 

if and when that has become true, this society -- not just the sport, but the society of which it is a mirror -- has become even more dismal a degradation than this writer considers it. it is difficult and horrifying enough to comprehend the gradual but perverse rise of the death cult in the third generation of sport in versions primitive and mechanized without quietly tolerating it backing and filling in the first (ie, soccer, baseball, college football and tennis) and second (ie, pro football, basketball and hockey) generations of sport-as-entertainment. this writer sees the second-generation sports to have already been lost to the fray within the last twenty years. when baseball -- whose decay is already marked and unnerving -- also finally and fully acquiesces, yours truly will quit with sport entirely. football as it is isn't fit for dogs, in the opinion hereabouts; when baseball too gives it up for blood and vanity, there's nothing in it sufficiently redeeming to merit continued interest.

 

This guy needs to get off his "high horse." He must spend his spare time memorizing Oswald Spengler's The Decline of the West; he probably also has a PhD. He certainly writes like one. I ought to know, I have been on a university faculty for 30 years.

 

I wished that Derek Lee hadn't taken that swing at the guy, but he did. Even the best of us can occaisionally lose it. Under the same circumstances I might have done the same; I am only human after all, and so is Derek Lee.

 

Maybe I have over reacted. Aw who rally gives a *&^%. You can find the target of my rant here.

 

I'd hope if he had a PhD., he'd use proper punctuation and capitalization.