Fontenot Up/Fontenot Down, Marmol Up, Gooz Pen, Marshall Up

[CubinNY]

A freaking cramp.

 

Dempster blows Angel's win so let's punish Angel!

 

Angel's never thrown a ton of innings in his career. Part of his job as a starter is to give a good amount of innings. Also, he's thrown the ball well in limited innings. Where has the problem been? The bullpen, where he's being sent, so this could be a help to the team is Marshall (I'm guessing) continues on this solid year.

 

The lack of logic is stunning, simply stunning.

 

Starting pitching = Strenght

Bulpen percieved weakness (not necessarily a valid reflection of reality)

 

Remove starting pitchers weakens the starters. The starters are weakened the bullpen gets more work. When a bullpen works too much it gets weaker.

 

A bullpen is used to help preserve vicotory. It's hard when there is nothing to preserve.

 

Marshall is not a good bet to be a decent 5th starter, neither is Miller.

 

I find you making a few of assumptions along with your logic.

 

Guzman has pitched well as a starter, but if he can't consistently go deep into the game, he is not helping his bullpen.

 

Also, Marshall vs. Guzman isn't as clearcut as you make it out to be. Sure, we can all break out our jump to conclusions mats after 3 starts, but look at their historic major league and minor league performances and consider who also would be more suited in the bullpen.

 

It's really not hard.

 

Why not take Z and make him a middle reliever then?

 

Marshall is not good and comming off an injury. Wade Miller looks to be almost finished. After that the next legit starters are in AA and A ball.

 

When you take from a strength it makes it a weaker.

[KaiserCesar]

A freaking cramp.

 

Dempster blows Angel's win so let's punish Angel!

 

Angel's never thrown a ton of innings in his career. Part of his job as a starter is to give a good amount of innings. Also, he's thrown the ball well in limited innings. Where has the problem been? The bullpen, where he's being sent, so this could be a help to the team is Marshall (I'm guessing) continues on this solid year.

 

The lack of logic is stunning, simply stunning.

 

Starting pitching = Strenght

Bulpen percieved weakness (not necessarily a valid reflection of reality)

 

Remove starting pitchers weakens the starters. The starters are weakened the bullpen gets more work. When a bullpen works too much it gets weaker.

 

A bullpen is used to help preserve vicotory. It's hard when there is nothing to preserve.

 

Marshall is not a good bet to be a decent 5th starter, neither is Miller.

 

I find you making a few of assumptions along with your logic.

 

Guzman has pitched well as a starter, but if he can't consistently go deep into the game, he is not helping his bullpen.

 

Also, Marshall vs. Guzman isn't as clearcut as you make it out to be. Sure, we can all break out our jump to conclusions mats after 3 starts, but look at their historic major league and minor league performances and consider who also would be more suited in the bullpen.

 

It's really not hard.

 

Why not take Z and make him a middle reliever then?

 

Marshall is not good and comming off an injury. Wade Miller looks to be almost finished. After that the next legit starters are in AA and A ball.

 

When you take from a strength it makes it a weaker.

 

Ok, first off.

 

Zambrano career 129 ERA+

 

Second off, you maintain the assumption that there is going to be a huge dropoff from Guzman to Marshall, the same as Zambrano to Marshall based on your argument.

 

Aside from the most recent limited major league action from Guzman, there is nothing to indicate this to be a continuing trend. Guzman can help in the bullpen, Marshall cannot. This is about allocation of resources.

 

It's really not that hard.

[CubinNY]

A freaking cramp.

 

Dempster blows Angel's win so let's punish Angel!

 

Angel's never thrown a ton of innings in his career. Part of his job as a starter is to give a good amount of innings. Also, he's thrown the ball well in limited innings. Where has the problem been? The bullpen, where he's being sent, so this could be a help to the team is Marshall (I'm guessing) continues on this solid year.

 

The lack of logic is stunning, simply stunning.

 

Starting pitching = Strenght

Bulpen percieved weakness (not necessarily a valid reflection of reality)

 

Remove starting pitchers weakens the starters. The starters are weakened the bullpen gets more work. When a bullpen works too much it gets weaker.

 

A bullpen is used to help preserve vicotory. It's hard when there is nothing to preserve.

 

Marshall is not a good bet to be a decent 5th starter, neither is Miller.

 

I find you making a few of assumptions along with your logic.

 

Guzman has pitched well as a starter, but if he can't consistently go deep into the game, he is not helping his bullpen.

 

Also, Marshall vs. Guzman isn't as clearcut as you make it out to be. Sure, we can all break out our jump to conclusions mats after 3 starts, but look at their historic major league and minor league performances and consider who also would be more suited in the bullpen.

 

It's really not hard.

 

Why not take Z and make him a middle reliever then?

 

Marshall is not good and comming off an injury. Wade Miller looks to be almost finished. After that the next legit starters are in AA and A ball.

 

When you take from a strength it makes it a weaker.

 

Ok, first off.

 

Zambrano career 129 ERA+

 

Second off, you maintain the assumption that there is going to be a huge dropoff from Guzman to Marshall, the same as Zambrano to Marshall based on your argument.

 

Aside from the most recent limited major league action from Guzman, there is nothing to indicate this to be a continuing trend. Guzman can help in the bullpen, Marshall cannot. This is about allocation of resources.

 

It's really not that hard.

 

Does the pen need help or is Lou overreacting after a tough loss? Or has Lou mismanged the pen making it look worse than it would otherwise be the case?

 

But all that is entirely beside the point. It's just plain dumb to take a starter out of the rotation to put him in the bullpen. Just dumb.

 

Why can't Marshall help the pen?

 

What are you going to do when Miller comes up instead of Marshall?

[Guest]

A freaking cramp.

 

Dempster blows Angel's win so let's punish Angel!

 

Angel's never thrown a ton of innings in his career. Part of his job as a starter is to give a good amount of innings. Also, he's thrown the ball well in limited innings. Where has the problem been? The bullpen, where he's being sent, so this could be a help to the team is Marshall (I'm guessing) continues on this solid year.

 

The lack of logic is stunning, simply stunning.

 

Starting pitching = Strenght

Bulpen percieved weakness (not necessarily a valid reflection of reality)

 

Remove starting pitchers weakens the starters. The starters are weakened the bullpen gets more work. When a bullpen works too much it gets weaker.

 

A bullpen is used to help preserve vicotory. It's hard when there is nothing to preserve.

 

Marshall is not a good bet to be a decent 5th starter, neither is Miller.

 

I find you making a few of assumptions along with your logic.

 

Guzman has pitched well as a starter, but if he can't consistently go deep into the game, he is not helping his bullpen.

 

Also, Marshall vs. Guzman isn't as clearcut as you make it out to be. Sure, we can all break out our jump to conclusions mats after 3 starts, but look at their historic major league and minor league performances and consider who also would be more suited in the bullpen.

 

Be careful with that jump to conclusions mat yourself.

 

Angel Guzman has topped 100+ pitches and gone into the 6th inning when healthy in the minors. Considering he's had 3 starts - the first of which while he was definitely still building up his arm strength - and the third of which after he left a game with a cramp (a game I'm guessing he could have pitched the 6th in if the Cubs wanted, seeing as he finished his AB after cramping up) - I don't know that you want to say that Guzman can't go deep into games.

[KaiserCesar]

A freaking cramp.

 

Dempster blows Angel's win so let's punish Angel!

 

Angel's never thrown a ton of innings in his career. Part of his job as a starter is to give a good amount of innings. Also, he's thrown the ball well in limited innings. Where has the problem been? The bullpen, where he's being sent, so this could be a help to the team is Marshall (I'm guessing) continues on this solid year.

 

The lack of logic is stunning, simply stunning.

 

Starting pitching = Strenght

Bulpen percieved weakness (not necessarily a valid reflection of reality)

 

Remove starting pitchers weakens the starters. The starters are weakened the bullpen gets more work. When a bullpen works too much it gets weaker.

 

A bullpen is used to help preserve vicotory. It's hard when there is nothing to preserve.

 

Marshall is not a good bet to be a decent 5th starter, neither is Miller.

 

I find you making a few of assumptions along with your logic.

 

Guzman has pitched well as a starter, but if he can't consistently go deep into the game, he is not helping his bullpen.

 

Also, Marshall vs. Guzman isn't as clearcut as you make it out to be. Sure, we can all break out our jump to conclusions mats after 3 starts, but look at their historic major league and minor league performances and consider who also would be more suited in the bullpen.

 

It's really not hard.

 

Why not take Z and make him a middle reliever then?

 

Marshall is not good and comming off an injury. Wade Miller looks to be almost finished. After that the next legit starters are in AA and A ball.

 

When you take from a strength it makes it a weaker.

 

Ok, first off.

 

Zambrano career 129 ERA+

 

Second off, you maintain the assumption that there is going to be a huge dropoff from Guzman to Marshall, the same as Zambrano to Marshall based on your argument.

 

Aside from the most recent limited major league action from Guzman, there is nothing to indicate this to be a continuing trend. Guzman can help in the bullpen, Marshall cannot. This is about allocation of resources.

 

It's really not that hard.

 

Does the pen need help or is Lou overreacting after a tough loss? Or has Lou mismanged the pen making it look worse than it would otherwise be the case?

 

But all that is entirely beside the point. It's just plain dumb to take a starter out of the rotation to put him in the bullpen. Just dumb.

 

Why can't Marshall help the pen?

 

What are you going to do when Miller comes up instead of Marshall?

 

The bullpen isn't in dire in need of help, but a solid arm doesn't hurt. When you have a capable starter ready, it isn't just plain dumb no matter how many times you use the word or fragmented sentences you type. Marshall is left handed, you got 3 of those in the bullpen already.

 

If Miller comes up instead, I won't like it. I may make an angry scowl or possibly grind my teeth a few times.

[Guest]

You also now have three lefties in the starting rotation (if it is Marshall getting called up). And they all do the same thing - upper 80s FB and big curve.

[CubinNY]

A freaking cramp.

 

Dempster blows Angel's win so let's punish Angel!

 

Angel's never thrown a ton of innings in his career. Part of his job as a starter is to give a good amount of innings. Also, he's thrown the ball well in limited innings. Where has the problem been? The bullpen, where he's being sent, so this could be a help to the team is Marshall (I'm guessing) continues on this solid year.

 

The lack of logic is stunning, simply stunning.

 

Starting pitching = Strenght

Bulpen percieved weakness (not necessarily a valid reflection of reality)

 

Remove starting pitchers weakens the starters. The starters are weakened the bullpen gets more work. When a bullpen works too much it gets weaker.

 

A bullpen is used to help preserve vicotory. It's hard when there is nothing to preserve.

 

Marshall is not a good bet to be a decent 5th starter, neither is Miller.

 

I find you making a few of assumptions along with your logic.

 

Guzman has pitched well as a starter, but if he can't consistently go deep into the game, he is not helping his bullpen.

 

Also, Marshall vs. Guzman isn't as clearcut as you make it out to be. Sure, we can all break out our jump to conclusions mats after 3 starts, but look at their historic major league and minor league performances and consider who also would be more suited in the bullpen.

 

It's really not hard.

 

Why not take Z and make him a middle reliever then?

 

Marshall is not good and comming off an injury. Wade Miller looks to be almost finished. After that the next legit starters are in AA and A ball.

 

When you take from a strength it makes it a weaker.

 

Ok, first off.

 

Zambrano career 129 ERA+

 

Second off, you maintain the assumption that there is going to be a huge dropoff from Guzman to Marshall, the same as Zambrano to Marshall based on your argument.

 

Aside from the most recent limited major league action from Guzman, there is nothing to indicate this to be a continuing trend. Guzman can help in the bullpen, Marshall cannot. This is about allocation of resources.

 

It's really not that hard.

 

Does the pen need help or is Lou overreacting after a tough loss? Or has Lou mismanged the pen making it look worse than it would otherwise be the case?

 

But all that is entirely beside the point. It's just plain dumb to take a starter out of the rotation to put him in the bullpen. Just dumb.

 

Why can't Marshall help the pen?

 

What are you going to do when Miller comes up instead of Marshall?

 

The bullpen isn't in dire in need of help, but a solid arm doesn't hurt. When you have a capable starter ready, it isn't just plain dumb no matter how many times you use the word or fragmented sentences you type. Marshall is left handed, you got 3 of those in the bullpen already.

 

If Miller comes up instead, I won't like it. I may make an angry scowl or possibly grind my teeth a few times.

 

So there's a law against having more than three lefties in the bullpen?

 

Marshall hasn't been a capeable starter for quite a while.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs.aspx?playerid=5905&position=P&page=6&type=full

[KaiserCesar]

A freaking cramp.

 

Dempster blows Angel's win so let's punish Angel!

 

Angel's never thrown a ton of innings in his career. Part of his job as a starter is to give a good amount of innings. Also, he's thrown the ball well in limited innings. Where has the problem been? The bullpen, where he's being sent, so this could be a help to the team is Marshall (I'm guessing) continues on this solid year.

 

The lack of logic is stunning, simply stunning.

 

Starting pitching = Strenght

Bulpen percieved weakness (not necessarily a valid reflection of reality)

 

Remove starting pitchers weakens the starters. The starters are weakened the bullpen gets more work. When a bullpen works too much it gets weaker.

 

A bullpen is used to help preserve vicotory. It's hard when there is nothing to preserve.

 

Marshall is not a good bet to be a decent 5th starter, neither is Miller.

 

I find you making a few of assumptions along with your logic.

 

Guzman has pitched well as a starter, but if he can't consistently go deep into the game, he is not helping his bullpen.

 

Also, Marshall vs. Guzman isn't as clearcut as you make it out to be. Sure, we can all break out our jump to conclusions mats after 3 starts, but look at their historic major league and minor league performances and consider who also would be more suited in the bullpen.

 

It's really not hard.

 

Why not take Z and make him a middle reliever then?

 

Marshall is not good and comming off an injury. Wade Miller looks to be almost finished. After that the next legit starters are in AA and A ball.

 

When you take from a strength it makes it a weaker.

 

Ok, first off.

 

Zambrano career 129 ERA+

 

Second off, you maintain the assumption that there is going to be a huge dropoff from Guzman to Marshall, the same as Zambrano to Marshall based on your argument.

 

Aside from the most recent limited major league action from Guzman, there is nothing to indicate this to be a continuing trend. Guzman can help in the bullpen, Marshall cannot. This is about allocation of resources.

 

It's really not that hard.

 

Does the pen need help or is Lou overreacting after a tough loss? Or has Lou mismanged the pen making it look worse than it would otherwise be the case?

 

But all that is entirely beside the point. It's just plain dumb to take a starter out of the rotation to put him in the bullpen. Just dumb.

 

Why can't Marshall help the pen?

 

What are you going to do when Miller comes up instead of Marshall?

 

The bullpen isn't in dire in need of help, but a solid arm doesn't hurt. When you have a capable starter ready, it isn't just plain dumb no matter how many times you use the word or fragmented sentences you type. Marshall is left handed, you got 3 of those in the bullpen already.

 

If Miller comes up instead, I won't like it. I may make an angry scowl or possibly grind my teeth a few times.

 

So there's a law against having more than three lefties in the bullpen?

 

Marshall hasn't been a capeable starter for quite a while

 

There's no law, but it doesn't help you strategically when you have a couple left handed specialists down there already.

 

Guzman wasn't a capable starter until a few weeks ago.

[KaiserCesar]

You also now have three lefties in the starting rotation (if it is Marshall getting called up). And they all do the same thing - upper 80s FB and big curve.

 

This matters a lot less than the bullpen. When you bring in a relief pitcher, you may want a few different options with guys who do different things. You don't choose who you start day to day based on matchups.

[RichHillIsABeast]

Putting 3 lefties in the rotation (with similar stuff) is a bad, bad idea.

 

I'm all for moving Gooz to the pen as we're desperate for a quality power arm or two in there. Usually a pitcher is more valuable if he can start, but when your pen is blowing game after game, it's time to make an exception to the rule.

 

edit: me no spell good

Edited May 19, 2007 by RichHillIsABeast

[Mephistopheles]

Yeah Marshall, Lillypuff and Hill are essentially mirror images of the same pitcher with varying degrees of skill.

[Sammy Sofa]

Yeah Marshall, Lillypuff and Hill are essentially mirror images of the same pitcher with varying degrees of skill.

 

If they can all be varying degrees of good, I'm fine with that.

[NCCubFan]

Wade Miller looks to be almost finished.

Fixed.

[Amazing_Grace]

Are they really moving Guzman to the bullpen or is this just speculation. I can't figure out where in this 10 page thread we have Lou ever saying he was putting Guzman in the bullpen. Edited May 20, 2007 by Amazing_Grace

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Are they really moving Guzman to the bullpen or is this just speculation. I can't figure out where in this 17 page thread we have Lou ever saying he was putting Guzman in the bullpen.

 

Yep, Lou said Guzman was going to the bullpen.

[Amazing_Grace]

Are they really moving Guzman to the bullpen or is this just speculation. I can't figure out where in this 17 page thread we have Lou ever saying he was putting Guzman in the bullpen.

 

Yep, Lou said Guzman was going to the bullpen.

 

Well, my opinion of Piniella just went down a notch. If the 5th starter is going to be Wade Miller again, it will go down another notch. If they use Marshall, he at least has a shot to be decent. Miller with an 89 mph fastball is worthless anywhere for any role.

[CubFanPhilly]

You also now have three lefties in the starting rotation (if it is Marshall getting called up). And they all do the same thing - upper 80s FB and big curve.

 

But unless you put them all together in the rotation, no team is going to see more than one or two of them in a series.

 

 

There's one benefit to the otherwise dubious decision to put Guzman in the pen:

 

22.2 IP in winter ball

18.0 IP in ST

10.1 IP in AAA

22.0 IP in the majors this year.

 

75 IP so far.

 

Another 150 IP as a starter would be a scary total for a guy with his injury history. Another 60 IP would put less stress on him.

 

CFP

[Ding Dong Johnson]

We should put Aramis on the bench so we have a really good pinch hitter.

[RammyFanny]

Marshall up per chicagosports.com

 

No word on the corresponding move.

[RammyFanny]

Well, I dont know if it's official but,

 

The Cubs plan to call up Sean Marshall from Triple-A Iowa this week, meaning someone from the staff has to go. Piniella named Rich Hill as his starter on Tuesday in San Diego but would not reveal the rest of his rotation, which suggests Marshall will start either Wednesday or Thursday.

[Tracer Bullet]

We should put Aramis on the bench so we have a really good pinch hitter.

 

Lee's already filling that role. Does ARam have the mental make up to be a closer?

[Derwood]

We should put Aramis on the bench so we have a really good pinch hitter.

 

worked for the Mets in the 9th inning of that last game...

[Jehrico]

I don't have a problem with the move either. This wasn't based on him getting a cramp one time, he's had problems with cramps keeping him from going as deep as he could throughout the minors as well, from what I understand. Considering his past, I'm also hesitant to bank on him being a perennial 180+ inning guy. Whether Marshall puts up an ERA around 4.00 or an ERA above 5.00 will determine how good of a move that this is. It also depends on what happens in the pen. If Gooz going to the pen gets Eyre out of the mix, then it's even better. If Gooz can turn into a Mariano Rivera type of closer (which is possible, he's got the stuff), it's definitely a good move. If Gooz going to the pen takes a little away from everyone, then it's not as good.

[Jehrico]

So there's a law against having more than three lefties in the bullpen?

 

Marshall hasn't been a capeable starter for quite a while.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs.aspx?playerid=5905&position=P&page=6&type=full

 

???

 

Let's not judge a guy on a handful of innings his rookie season. He was 23 years old, and jumped from AA to the bigs (he had less than a season at AA at that). He had some good starts, and got rocked a few times. Overall, it wasn't a great year for him, but not horrible given the circumstances. You make it sound like he was flopping as a starter in the minors, which isn't the case. He put up a combined ERA in 2005 around 2.65 or so between Daytona and W Tennessee.

 

Maddux's numbers after his first 35 starts were comparable to what Marshall's numbers are after his first 25. He hasn't proven anything yet, good or bad. He hasn't had time.

 

Now, if you want to argue you're taking a guy who is known to give you 5-6 good innings out of the rotation for a guy who hasn't necessarily proven he's ready, I could agree with that argument.

[ConstableRabbit]

We should put Aramis on the bench so we have a really good pinch hitter.

 

Not. Even. Close.