Prior visits Yocum and Andrews; THT on Prior's Mechanics

[soapy]

That September stretch of pitch counts is mind-numbing.

 

QFT

 

It really is still hard to fathom almost four years later. Dusty Baker should really be ashamed of himself. Unfortunately, I'd guess he probably thinks he has nothing to do with this.

[soapy]

Seriously, your argument is just wrong on so many levels. If you want to ignore mountains of evidence that Mark Prior and Kerry Wood were broken beyond repair in 2003, knock yourself out.

 

 

Ok, let's assume your are correct. Prior was signficantly damaged by the 2003 season. I think we would agree the damage was significant, because he has failed to make it out of 4 straight spring trainings and has had several trips to the DL.

 

Now, I know a little about sportsmedicine, because I have been in that field for 15 years, and I know what diagnostic tests and orthopaedic dr's are capable of finding. If Prior had something going on, that was significant enouph to cause his past 4 years of history, it is incredibly unlikely, he would have had a clean structural bill of health from numerous MRI's and many different physicians, time and time again.

 

That's why I don't believe in the lingering effect of 03 abuse theory. Anything causing him so much trouble, is not going undectable for this long.

 

The abuse didn't stop in 2003.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

This is what happens when you ask a guy who's already thrown 110 pitches if he wants to go back out. What 22 year old is going to say no?

[Outshined_One]

This thread is beginning to make me worried about Zambrano...

[Derwood]

Seriously, your argument is just wrong on so many levels. If you want to ignore mountains of evidence that Mark Prior and Kerry Wood were broken beyond repair in 2003, knock yourself out.

 

 

Ok, let's assume your are correct. Prior was signficantly damaged by the 2003 season. I think we would agree the damage was significant, because he has failed to make it out of 4 straight spring trainings and has had several trips to the DL.

 

Now, I know a little about sportsmedicine, because I have been in that field for 15 years, and I know what diagnostic tests and orthopaedic dr's are capable of finding. If Prior had something going on, that was significant enouph to cause his past 4 years of history, it is incredibly unlikely, he would have had a clean structural bill of health from numerous MRI's and many different physicians, time and time again.

 

That's why I don't believe in the lingering effect of 03 abuse theory. Anything causing him so much trouble, is not going undectable for this long.

 

you're assuming that the Cubs, who had a history of truth-stretching when it came to injuries, was completely forthright about Prior's bill of health

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

 

Ok, let's assume your are correct. Prior was signficantly damaged by the 2003 season. I think we would agree the damage was significant, because he has failed to make it out of 4 straight spring trainings and has had several trips to the DL.

 

Now, I know a little about sportsmedicine, because I have been in that field for 15 years, and I know what diagnostic tests and orthopaedic dr's are capable of finding. If Prior had something going on, that was significant enouph to cause his past 4 years of history, it is incredibly unlikely, he would have had a clean structural bill of health from numerous MRI's and many different physicians, time and time again.

 

That's why I don't believe in the lingering effect of 03 abuse theory. Anything causing him so much trouble, is not going undectable for this long.

 

He was also abused in 2004 and 2005. (Third in PAP for 2005.) The cumulative effect of all that abuse at an early age has lead to the effects we see now. Is it really that hard to comprehend?

Edited April 13, 2007 by vance_the_cubs_fan

[USSoccer]

Seriously, your argument is just wrong on so many levels. If you want to ignore mountains of evidence that Mark Prior and Kerry Wood were broken beyond repair in 2003, knock yourself out.

 

 

Ok, let's assume your are correct. Prior was signficantly damaged by the 2003 season. I think we would agree the damage was significant, because he has failed to make it out of 4 straight spring trainings and has had several trips to the DL.

 

Now, I know a little about sportsmedicine, because I have been in that field for 15 years, and I know what diagnostic tests and orthopaedic dr's are capable of finding. If Prior had something going on, that was significant enouph to cause his past 4 years of history, it is incredibly unlikely, he would have had a clean structural bill of health from numerous MRI's and many different physicians, time and time again.

 

That's why I don't believe in the lingering effect of 03 abuse theory. Anything causing him so much trouble, is not going undectable for this long.

 

You're assuming the abuse ended in 2003.

 

If it's easier to ignore logic and evidence and cling to knee jerk conclusions about players being soft/babies/whatever, fine. However, that won't change the fact that Dusty Baker irresponsibly used Prior and Wood in 2003 to the point it damaged them for the long term.

Edited April 13, 2007 by USSoccer

[soapy]

This thread is beginning to make me worried about Zambrano...

beginning?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

This thread is beginning to make me worried about Zambrano...

beginning?

 

You want a good dose of worry? Look at the PAP leaders for the past couple of seasons.

[hitamprun]

Seriously, your argument is just wrong on so many levels. If you want to ignore mountains of evidence that Mark Prior and Kerry Wood were broken beyond repair in 2003, knock yourself out.

 

 

Ok, let's assume your are correct. Prior was signficantly damaged by the 2003 season. I think we would agree the damage was significant, because he has failed to make it out of 4 straight spring trainings and has had several trips to the DL.

 

Now, I know a little about sportsmedicine, because I have been in that field for 15 years, and I know what diagnostic tests and orthopaedic dr's are capable of finding. If Prior had something going on, that was significant enouph to cause his past 4 years of history, it is incredibly unlikely, he would have had a clean structural bill of health from numerous MRI's and many different physicians, time and time again.

 

That's why I don't believe in the lingering effect of 03 abuse theory. Anything causing him so much trouble, is not going undectable for this long.

 

The abuse didn't stop in 2003.

 

Ok. But you are drawing a conclusion based on number of pitches thrown, and are assuming damage was done. I am drawing a conclusion based on the fact no MRI, or physician has found any structural damage with Prior.

 

My question is simple - if abuse has caused Prior's problems, why haven't the best physcians in the US, found any damage to account for his problems since 04.

 

Does anyone remember the game he pitched in 05? He pitched about 2 innings, and called the trainer out to the mound, and pulled himself from the game because he had discomfort. Everyone was expecting the worst, because you rarely see a pitcher call out a trainer and yank himself. He was examined by the docs and had an MRI the next day, and every came back 100% clean. Low and behold, he didn't miss his next start.

 

I say this for one reason, it gives you a general idea of how Prior percieves discomfort, and how it continues to effect him today. You really have to look at the complete picture here, not just how many pitches he threw in a select amount of his games.

[illiniguy]

Our organization is a joke. You really think this would have happened if these guys had been Braves? We have to rush and push everything. No one in their right mind would have allowed for the type of abuse Prior received as a 22 year old. Thank Dusty, thanks Jim. It is kind of like the equivalent of getting a brand new Ferrari and driving it as hard as you can while never changing the oil, then acting suprised when it breaks down, followed by getting mad at it for not being the same after it has happened.

 

Oh and the best part we did it(are doing it) all over again with Z.

[BigbadB]

Ok. But you are drawing a conclusion based on number of pitches thrown, and are assuming damage was done. I am drawing a conclusion based on the fact no MRI, or physician has found any structural damage with Prior.

 

My question is simple - if abuse has caused Prior's problems, why haven't the best physcians in the US, found any damage to account for his problems since 04.

 

Does anyone remember the game he pitched in 05? He pitched about 2 innings, and called the trainer out to the mound, and pulled himself from the game because he had discomfort. Everyone was expecting the worst, because you rarely see a pitcher call out a trainer and yank himself. He was examined by the docs and had an MRI the next day, and every came back 100% clean. Low and behold, he didn't miss his next start.

 

I say this for one reason, it gives you a general idea of how Prior percieves discomfort, and how it continues to effect him today. You really have to look at the complete picture here, not just how many pitches he threw in a select amount of his games.

 

They have yet to come up with an exact science into the mysteries of abuse of a pitching arm. How much can an MRI detect? Does it show nerve damage?

 

It very well could just be coincidental that the youngest pitcher with the most pitcher abuse points hasn't been right ever since. But, the evidence is there that suggests that it wasn't just coincidental.

 

You can toss it out there that the likelihood that the pitching abuse points in 2003 had nothing to do with what's wrong with Prior now, but it doesn't make your point any more correct than anyone elses.

[Soul]

There have been many who said they feel Z is due for a breakdown. Looking at how he's been used, it looks like he's one tough dude to have handled it for this long.

 

I guess I can only hope he's just tough enough to handle it, ala Clemens. But that's not very comforting.

[Soriano12]

This thread is beginning to make me worried about Zambrano...

beginning?

 

You want a good dose of worry? Look at the PAP leaders for the past couple of seasons.

 

Do you have a link for that?

[hitamprun]

Ok. But you are drawing a conclusion based on number of pitches thrown, and are assuming damage was done. I am drawing a conclusion based on the fact no MRI, or physician has found any structural damage with Prior.

 

My question is simple - if abuse has caused Prior's problems, why haven't the best physcians in the US, found any damage to account for his problems since 04.

 

Does anyone remember the game he pitched in 05? He pitched about 2 innings, and called the trainer out to the mound, and pulled himself from the game because he had discomfort. Everyone was expecting the worst, because you rarely see a pitcher call out a trainer and yank himself. He was examined by the docs and had an MRI the next day, and every came back 100% clean. Low and behold, he didn't miss his next start.

 

I say this for one reason, it gives you a general idea of how Prior percieves discomfort, and how it continues to effect him today. You really have to look at the complete picture here, not just how many pitches he threw in a select amount of his games.

 

They have yet to come up with an exact science into the mysteries of abuse of a pitching arm. How much can an MRI detect? Does it show nerve damage?

 

It very well could just be coincidental that the youngest pitcher with the most pitcher abuse points hasn't been right ever since. But, the evidence is there that suggests that it wasn't just coincidental.

 

You can toss it out there that the likelihood that the pitching abuse points in 2003 had nothing to do with what's wrong with Prior now, but it doesn't make your point any more correct than anyone elses.

 

Again, you are assuming the correlation and that's fine. I am looking at another correlation, and also don't think it is a coincidence he has not shown any structural damage to date, and it doesn't jive with the damage from abuse theory.

 

Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

[baseball7897]

Prior was fatigued and injured when he pitched in the playoffs of '03, bad things can happen and they did. It probably got progressively worse by pitching when it wasn't healed properly and the line drive from Hawpe.

 

Thats exactly how I see it too.

[UK1679666180]

 

Ok. But you are drawing a conclusion based on number of pitches thrown, and are assuming damage was done. I am drawing a conclusion based on the fact no MRI, or physician has found any structural damage with Prior.

 

My question is simple - if abuse has caused Prior's problems, why haven't the best physcians in the US, found any damage to account for his problems since 04.

 

Does anyone remember the game he pitched in 05? He pitched about 2 innings, and called the trainer out to the mound, and pulled himself from the game because he had discomfort. Everyone was expecting the worst, because you rarely see a pitcher call out a trainer and yank himself. He was examined by the docs and had an MRI the next day, and every came back 100% clean. Low and behold, he didn't miss his next start.

 

I say this for one reason, it gives you a general idea of how Prior percieves discomfort, and how it continues to effect him today. You really have to look at the complete picture here, not just how many pitches he threw in a select amount of his games.

 

Having a labrum that was once injured and is now medically cleared does not always equate to that labrum being able to operate as effectively as it once did pre-trauma.

[Outshined_One]

Haven't Prior's problems been mostly with his shoulder?

 

Since we're playing expertise cards here, I've had plenty of conversations with my father (a rheumatologist...think bone and joint specialist) about the Cubs' pitching staff since we enjoy chatting about sports. From what I can recall, he said that the shoulder is one of the most difficult areas for a physician to adequately examine, diagnose, and treat. While Tommy John surgery has made life easier for pitchers' elbows, the shoulder remains something of an enigma. Pitchers who have torn labrums and torn rotator cuffs might as well hang up the cleats since it is so hard for them to get back to full strength and be as effective as they once were.

 

In Prior's case, there have never been any disclosed tears (hmmmmm), but he's had plenty of trouble. Heck, he was shut down in 2006 because of shoulder tendonitis and some other weird issues:

 

Cubs | Prior needs to strengthen his shoulder

Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:59:33 -0700

 

Carrie Muskat, of Chicago.Cubs.MLB.com, reports Chicago Cubs SP Mark Prior (shoulder) has "looseness" in his shoulder, which in addition to helping him pitch, is also causing him problems. "Laxity," said Cubs athletics trainer Mark O'Neal. "Some people either have a tight shoulder or are labeled as genetically loose. Mark is one of those people who has loose joints -- it's something that's genetically given to him. That looseness is what allows him to generate as much force as he does to be the great pitcher that he has the potential to be and has been." Prior is taking four to six weeks off since the end of the season, and he will then resume his throwing program.

 

After dealing with the mess that was Bobby Brownlie's shoulder (*gag*), we saw that he was healthy and able to pitch, but he was nowhere near as effective as he was when he pitched at Rutgers. His velocity was way down, his stuff was nowhere near as sharp, and the only reason why he stuck in the organization for so long (beyond the $$ investment) was because he had reinvented himself as a soft-tossing right handed control pitcher who eventually flamed out.

 

I've followed baseball enough to know that pitchers with shoulder problems terrify teams, even if those guys never had to undergo surgery for those problems. Given how Prior's stuff has degenerated so markedly (especially this year), I'm beginning to see him fall into the Bobby Brownlie mold.

 

And yes, it killed me to type that.

Edited April 13, 2007 by Outshined_One

[brinoch]

This reminds me of a post made by a great American philosopher who went by the name of goony's evil twin, where he broke down, in great detail, just how much Baker abused Prior in his first 2 years of professional baseball. If I could find it I'd love to quote it here, but I'm not sure I'm worthy of attaching my name to that genius's work.

 

:lol: Love it.

[Lefty]

BP's annual book said that Prior's injury was the same one Wood had in 2005.

 

Prior did not have the same injury as Wood, he was diagnosed with a loose shoulder, which is quite common among pitchers.

 

You say he would take the surgery route, surgery for what ailment exactly?

 

For the same injury that Wood had in 2005. You disagree with BP's assessment, fine. But respond to the whole post.

[E.J.]

Our organization is a joke. You really think this would have happened if these guys had been Braves? We have to rush and push everything. No one in their right mind would have allowed for the type of abuse Prior received as a 22 year old. Thank Dusty, thanks Jim. It is kind of like the equivalent of getting a brand new Ferrari and driving it as hard as you can while never changing the oil, then acting suprised when it breaks down, followed by getting mad at it for not being the same after it has happened.

 

Oh and the best part we did it(are doing it) all over again with Z.

 

Well, thank god there's going to be a new owner in place after this year, and hopefully they clean house and bring in people who actually know how to run a successful baseball team.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

This thread is beginning to make me worried about Zambrano...

beginning?

 

You want a good dose of worry? Look at the PAP leaders for the past couple of seasons.

 

Do you have a link for that?

 

See the stats page for Baseball Prospectus.

[cubweiser03]

Haven't Prior's problems been mostly with his shoulder?

 

Since we're playing expertise cards here, I've had plenty of conversations with my father (a rheumatologist...think bone and joint specialist) about the Cubs' pitching staff since we enjoy chatting about sports. From what I can recall, he said that the shoulder is one of the most difficult areas for a physician to adequately examine, diagnose, and treat. While Tommy John surgery has made life easier for pitchers' elbows, the shoulder remains something of an enigma. Pitchers who have torn labrums and torn rotator cuffs might as well hang up the cleats since it is so hard for them to get back to full strength and be as effective as they once were.

 

In Prior's case, there have never been any disclosed tears (hmmmmm), but he's had plenty of trouble. Heck, he was shut down in 2006 because of shoulder tendonitis and some other weird issues:

 

Cubs | Prior needs to strengthen his shoulder

Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:59:33 -0700

 

Carrie Muskat, of Chicago.Cubs.MLB.com, reports Chicago Cubs SP Mark Prior (shoulder) has "looseness" in his shoulder, which in addition to helping him pitch, is also causing him problems. "Laxity," said Cubs athletics trainer Mark O'Neal. "Some people either have a tight shoulder or are labeled as genetically loose. Mark is one of those people who has loose joints -- it's something that's genetically given to him. That looseness is what allows him to generate as much force as he does to be the great pitcher that he has the potential to be and has been." Prior is taking four to six weeks off since the end of the season, and he will then resume his throwing program.

 

After dealing with the mess that was Bobby Brownlie's shoulder (*gag*), we saw that he was healthy and able to pitch, but he was nowhere near as effective as he was when he pitched at Rutgers. His velocity was way down, his stuff was nowhere near as sharp, and the only reason why he stuck in the organization for so long (beyond the $$ investment) was because he had reinvented himself as a soft-tossing right handed control pitcher who eventually flamed out.

 

I've followed baseball enough to know that pitchers with shoulder problems terrify teams, even if those guys never had to undergo surgery for those problems. Given how Prior's stuff has degenerated so markedly (especially this year), I'm beginning to see him fall into the Bobby Brownlie mold.

 

And yes, it killed me to type that.

 

Cheer up. Angel Guzman had a torn labrum and is now throwing easy gas at 96/97. :)

 

Shoulder injuries do suck. Its strange, I almost wish that Prior would at least have some injury that allows surgery. At least they/he will know what he's getting into and try to fix it.

[Mephistopheles]

There have been many pitchers who have had similar loads that Prior and Wood (for only one season) and did not fold up like a cardboard box. Wood, is a different story, his mechanics have caused big time issues, and he has caused damage over time. Prior, is another deal, and I don't buy 03 ruined him, and if it somehow did, he doesn't have the physical capability to hold up as a starter.

 

Please provide an example of these "many pitchers" that had similar loads. Remember, we aren't talking IP, we're talking pitches.

 

Every pitcher in the 1960s?

 

if you think every pitcher in the 1960's threw as hard with as much torque on their arms as Wood and Prior you are truly fooling yourself

theres also little evidence to support that more pitches cause more injuries.

 

lets be frank, those 120 pitches are far from the only movements the arm does over the course of the season. When you look at bullpens (even when theyre at say 85%), all the long toss sessions, all the arm strengthening routines and everything else, those additional 10 pitches each start represent less than say 1% of all the motion the arm goes through.

[jersey cubs fan]

theres also little evidence to support that more pitches cause more injuries.

 

lets be frank, those 120 pitches are far from the only movements the arm does over the course of the season. When you look at bullpens (even when theyre at say 85%), all the long toss sessions, all the arm strengthening routines and everything else, those additional 10 pitches each start represent less than say 1% of all the motion the arm goes through.

 

But probably something like 95% of the most fatigued and stressful motions.

 

Pretending that the 120th pitch is at all equal to the 1st is silly.