Juan Pierre- 2006 NL Hit Leader

[Flames24Rulz]

Play Pie

 

Amen.

[Rob]

No player on the Dodgers with more than 400 PA had an OBP lower than .355

 

Drew - .393

Ethier - .365

Furcal - .369

Garciaparra - .367

Kent - .385

Lofton - .360

Martin - .355

 

I realize 400 AB is a strange cutoff, but people were either above 400 or below 250, the only exception I saw being Jose Cruz.

 

In other words, a playoff caliber offense can't have holes in the lineup like Pierre is, unless he's the only hole. Can a team drag a guy like Pierre into the postseason? Yeah... but he's sure not helping the situation.

[CubColtPacer]

No player on the Dodgers with more than 400 PA had an OBP lower than .355

 

Drew - .393

Ethier - .365

Furcal - .369

Garciaparra - .367

Kent - .385

Lofton - .360

Martin - .355

 

I realize 400 AB is a strange cutoff, but people were either above 400 or below 250, the only exception I saw being Jose Cruz.

 

In other words, a playoff caliber offense can't have holes in the lineup like Pierre is, unless he's the only hole. Can a team drag a guy like Pierre into the postseason? Yeah... but he's sure not helping the situation.

 

I understand what your point is, but there are plenty of playoff caliber offenses have 2 holes in the lineup or more. The Cardinals, for example, have Molina, Miles/Belliard who have been absolutely terrible overall, and Encarnacion doesn't have an OBP above .320, which OBP was what you were measuring in this post (although Encarnacion has been alright for them overall with his slugging-not good, but not a huge drag to the offense).

 

The Cardinals are not the only team with these kinds of holes, either. Oakland has a player exactly like Pierre in Mark Kotsay. Jay Payton has similar numbers, Mark Ellis has worse numbers, Dan Johnson is about the same with a little worse, and Crosby has much worse numbers. These players have 502, 557, 441, 286, and 358 at bats in the regular season. That's 2144 at bats out of 5 players that are around or worse than Pierre (Jay Payton is the only one better than Pierre this year with 5 points worse in OBP and 30 points better in SLG).

 

Playoff caliber teams in both leagues regularly have 2 or 3 holes in their offense. Do we need to, or should we sign Pierre to be one of them? No-is signing Pierre going to kill our playoff chances? No.

[BigbadB]

The Cardinals, for example, have Molina, Miles/Belliard who have been absolutely terrible overall, and Encarnacion doesn't have an OBP above .320, which OBP was what you were measuring in this post (although Encarnacion has been alright for them overall with his slugging-not good, but not a huge drag to the offense).

 

The Cardinals are not the only team with these kinds of holes, either. Oakland has a player exactly like Pierre in Mark Kotsay. Jay Payton has similar numbers, Mark Ellis has worse numbers, Dan Johnson is about the same with a little worse, and Crosby has much worse numbers. These players have 502, 557, 441, 286, and 358 at bats in the regular season. That's 2144 at bats out of 5 players that are around or worse than Pierre (Jay Payton is the only one better than Pierre this year with 5 points worse in OBP and 30 points better in SLG).

 

Playoff caliber teams in both leagues regularly have 2 or 3 holes in their offense. Do we need to, or should we sign Pierre to be one of them? No-is signing Pierre going to kill our playoff chances? No.

 

And the Cardinals would not be in the playoffs if they played in any other division. You don't build a team with those kinds of weaknesses if you don't have to.

 

Build the best team you can. Period.

[SouthSideRyan]

Playoff caliber teams in both leagues regularly have 2 or 3 holes in their offense. Do we need to, or should we sign Pierre to be one of them? No

 

This is the point. Yes, you can make the playoffs with holes in your lineup. But you most certainly shouldn't actively spend money on a guy who will be a hole in a lineup. If at the end of the offseason you looka t the lineup and say, oh we couldn't upgrade this position, we're stuck with a hole here. You live with it. If Pierre was still under contract for next year, it wouldn't be close to a top priority for me to trade him away. But since he's a FA, he's not a priority or even a target at this juncture in my book.

[treebird]

Playoff caliber teams in both leagues regularly have 2 or 3 holes in their offense. Do we need to, or should we sign Pierre to be one of them? No

 

This is the point. Yes, you can make the playoffs with holes in your lineup. But you most certainly shouldn't actively spend money on a guy who will be a hole in a lineup. If at the end of the offseason you looka t the lineup and say, oh we couldn't upgrade this position, we're stuck with a hole here. You live with it. If Pierre was still under contract for next year, it wouldn't be close to a top priority for me to trade him away. But since he's a FA, he's not a priority or even a target at this juncture in my book.

 

this is a really good way to explain this. you should probably save it for easy copy paste.

[Magnetic Curses]

i wonder how many other hitters in the league that we could have acquired last season would have done much more with all of those plate appearances that pierre had.

[BigbadB]

If Boston made a play for Andruw Jones or Mike Cameron, I wonder if Coco Crisp might be available? He's coming off a down year, but the injuries probably played a big part in that.

 

I'm not aware if he will have lingering issues with the injury he had, but I'm still pretty interested in him if he can reproduce his 04-05 numbers.

[Rob]

If Boston made a play for Andruw Jones or Mike Cameron, I wonder if Coco Crisp might be available? He's coming off a down year, but the injuries probably played a big part in that.

 

I'm not aware if he will have lingering issues with the injury he had, but I'm still pretty interested in him if he can reproduce his 04-05 numbers.

 

I'm not. There'd be a reason the BoSox are looking for a better center fielder...

[Outshined_One]

If Boston made a play for Andruw Jones or Mike Cameron, I wonder if Coco Crisp might be available? He's coming off a down year, but the injuries probably played a big part in that.

 

I'm not aware if he will have lingering issues with the injury he had, but I'm still pretty interested in him if he can reproduce his 04-05 numbers.

 

I think Crisp's problem is that he's not the ideal guy to bat leadoff and is better-suited to LF since it takes less of a toll on his body.

 

I don't like the idea of replacing Pierre with him, needless to say.

[wastra]

i wonder how many other hitters in the league that we could have acquired last season would have done much more with all of those plate appearances that pierre had.

 

 

I figured out that the major leagues' average hitter would have reached base a grand total of two fewer times than Pierre did this year with the same # of plate appearances...and would have had a lot more total bases.

 

The average hitter would have had fewer hits (lower batting average), but more walks (better BB/PA rate) and more total bases (higher SLG).

 

Oh yeah...and that includes the NL pitchers in those "average" numbers.

[chuckywang]

Yeah, Pierre led the league in hits, but his OBP is only .330. If you rank the NL hits leaders, you have to go all the way down to 21st (Jeff Francoeur, in a three way tie) to find a player with a lower OBP.

[soccer10k]

Juan Pierre is your 2006 NL leader in Hits. Good job Juan.

 

And his league leading total of 532 outs?

 

Pierre was as a hitter the equivalent of an American League pitcher with an ERA of about 4 in 177 innings. Since that pitcher is doing a pretty good job, I'd have to say that Pierre did a pretty bad job as an offensive player. But he is fast and he does bat leadoff.

 

That's what the thread title should mention: Juan Pierre: 2006 NL Out-making leader.

[Pinktermite]

There are far worse options out there than signing Juan. If he doesn't demand 12 million a year that is. 2 years/18 million plus incentives maybe? Of course getting A Jones would be a better choice, but Juan did a fine job, plays stellar defense, and hustles. He's not our problem. Pitching is our issue, and bad fundamentals...

 

They don't fix those two, then Juan becomes a moot point. Juan made this team better, not worse...i only have to point to Corey to know that. Until Corey turns into a HOFer with the Orioles of course.

[BigbadB]

Juan made this team better, not worse....

 

As the standings so clearly indicate.....

[Sammy Sofa]

There are far worse options out there than signing Juan. If he doesn't demand 12 million a year that is. 2 years/18 million plus incentives maybe?

 

I don't think he's worth more than $6 million a year, tops...and even that's a stretch.

[Magnetic Curses]

i wonder how many other hitters in the league that we could have acquired last season would have done much more with all of those plate appearances that pierre had.

 

 

I figured out that the major leagues' average hitter would have reached base a grand total of two fewer times than Pierre did this year with the same # of plate appearances...and would have had a lot more total bases.

 

The average hitter would have had fewer hits (lower batting average), but more walks (better BB/PA rate) and more total bases (higher SLG).

 

Oh yeah...and that includes the NL pitchers in those "average" numbers.

 

good stuff.

[Pinktermite]

It wasn't Juan's fault that the team sucked. Just about everyone can take some blame here, mostly Jim Hendry for setting us up for failure.

[Sammy Sofa]

It wasn't Juan's fault that the team sucked. Just about everyone can take some blame here, mostly Jim Hendry for setting us up for failure.

 

I don't think anyone is saying it's all his fault. The most common argument against him is that the Cubs simply don't have a use for him given his age, his weaknesses and how much money he'll command. He simply isn't a good fit for this team where they're at right now.

[soccer10k]

It wasn't Juan's fault that the team sucked. Just about everyone can take some blame here, mostly Jim Hendry for setting us up for failure.

 

I don't think anyone is saying it's all his fault. The most common argument against him is that the Cubs simply don't have a use for him given his age, his weaknesses and how much money he'll command. He simply isn't a good fit for this team where they're at right now.

 

Not to mention that if he loses a step, he'll be completely useless offensively.

[Pinktermite]

I don't disagree that Juan probably doesn't fit in, but man, some people on here just bash the hell out of the players we have that are doing okay (note I didn't say 'great').

 

The same people bash Dusty for being some kinda stupid hack that can't manage. Maybe he's not the greatest, but I remember a few cubs managers that were worse.

 

Mostly, I say again, it's the piss poor player choices that make way more difference than Juan or Dusty or anything else.

 

While the Cards, Yankees, Red Sox, White Sox, Dodgers, Mets, and Tigers get players...we get Glendon, Mabry, Neifi, and Freddie 'boom boom' Bynum...

 

The players suck...the team sucks...

 

If the manager sucks...the team can still be good.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I don't disagree that Juan probably doesn't fit in, but man, some people on here just bash the hell out of the players we have that are doing okay (note I didn't say 'great').

 

The same people bash Dusty for being some kinda stupid hack that can't manage. Maybe he's not the greatest, but I remember a few cubs managers that were worse.

 

Mostly, I say again, it's the piss poor player choices that make way more difference than Juan or Dusty or anything else.

 

While the Cards, Yankees, Red Sox, White Sox, Dodgers, Mets, and Tigers get players...we get Glendon, Mabry, Neifi, and Freddie 'boom boom' Bynum...

 

The players suck...the team sucks...

 

If the manager sucks...the team can still be good.

 

Juan and "piss poor player choices" are not exclusive.

[BigbadB]

I don't disagree that Juan probably doesn't fit in, but man, some people on here just bash the hell out of the players we have that are doing okay (note I didn't say 'great').

 

The same people bash Dusty for being some kinda stupid hack that can't manage. Maybe he's not the greatest, but I remember a few cubs managers that were worse.

 

Mostly, I say again, it's the piss poor player choices that make way more difference than Juan or Dusty or anything else.

 

While the Cards, Yankees, Red Sox, White Sox, Dodgers, Mets, and Tigers get players...we get Glendon, Mabry, Neifi, and Freddie 'boom boom' Bynum...

 

The players suck...the team sucks...

 

If the manager sucks...the team can still be good.

 

Can you list the Cubs managers that you feel were worse than Dusty? Dusty has been given much more to work with than any other Cub manager (outside of the late '60's early '70's teams) and his presence, IMO, only made the team worse. He's had Sammy Sosa, Moises Alou, Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Nomar, Kerry Wood, Mark Prior, Carlos Zambrano, Greg Maddux just to work with, and Dusty finished his managerial career with a losing record.

 

Juan Pierre is at the point in his career that he shouldn't bat any higher than 7th or 8th in a line up, if you have to play him at all.

 

I make this comparison quite often, mainly because I think it's very fitting:

 

Alex Sanchez- career OBP .330

Juan Pierre- OBP last two years .326 and .330

 

I did use Sanchez's career OBP, which some may say isn't fair. The last two years Sanchez has played, he had an even better OBP than .330. The fascination of both guys is that their OBP is completely AVG driven. If they aren't getting on base via a single, they aren't getting on base at all.

 

Alex Sanchez can't land a major league job.

Juan Pierre made 6m last year playing for the Cubs.

 

If you want a speedy lead off guy, Dave Roberts would likely cost less and would produce better offense. Pierre makes way too many outs to get paid what he does. There are tons of players more worthy of batting lead off for the Cubs next year.

[wastra]

Pierre is incredibly average at getting on base. that means,since the average includes scrubs, subs, and pitchers in the NL, that He's not really a very good offensive player.

 

 

To be perfectly fair, the only thing Pierre does that is clearly above average is make weak contact- he does that remarkably well. He doesn't get on base, he's fast, but he's nto a particularly GOOD baserunner. He doesn't field all that well, and certainly fcan't throw to save his life. He also has nothing resembling a hint of power.

 

 

That being said- he'd make a fine 4th outfielder to pinch run and sub late in games. the problem is giving a guy like him 730+ plate appearances. Few, if any other teams would give a player of his limited abilities that many opportunities.

 

 

As far as hit gross hits numbers- the guy only hit around .290. It's not like he hit .335 for the seaon to get that many hits. If a guy gets 200 hits batting .290, you know it's due to an absurd number of at bats, not great hitting. .290 is solid, but it's incredibly unspectacular.

[Soriano12]

Juan needs to grow the "stache" back.

:o