[jjgman21]

never mind. Billy Volek is good, Grossman and Griese aren't even NFL worthy.

 

 

whatever.

 

Not quite sure what you're trying to do with this considering I didn't bring up Billy Volek.

 

do you think I am incapable of clicking on other threads?

 

Yes. I think you are an idiot with a IQ of 45 and about 12 functioning brain cells. :roll:

 

you just agreed in another thread that Volek is a decent QB. in this thread you say Grossman and Griese aren't NFL quarterbacks.

 

Decent, average, what's the difference? But, as was brought up in the other thread (assuming you were able to click on it and read it) Volek has been in that system for 4 years and hasn't been hurt. Grossman has missed a majority of 3 seasons - there is only so much you can learn from a clipboard - and Griese is new to Chicago.

 

I have no idea what criteria you are using to assess NFL quarterbacks other than who their college coach was. I suspect you just have something up your butt about the Bears and that is the basis for this entire discussion.

 

It isn't exactly a new idea that Spurrier quarterbacks don't perform well in the NFL. It's not something I just came up with some night.

 

the obvious connotation of your statement about Volek is he is a capable NFL QB. the obvious connotation of your statements about Grossman is he is not a capable NFL QB.

 

Volek has been in the system, perhaps not hurt, but he also hasn't played. so I guess he must be vastly more capable of picking things up from a clipboard than Grossman is.

 

you acknowledge the change over in the system in Chicago, but apparently don't take that into consideration when coming to the determination that Grossman isn't a worthy NFL QB.

 

at this point you're just being argumentative and trying to get into a pissing match with me as evidenced by your eyeroll and the statements the eyeroll pertains to.

 

Have you heard of practice? I know Allen Iverson doesn't like it very much, but it does help. Who do you think ran the offense in practice when McNair wasn't practicing but was still starting every Sunday? Billy Volek!! The last time I checked, if you're hurt, you can't practice. That's what I meant.

 

I'm not being any more argumentative than you are with some of your statements. Did you forget about this one:

 

a Raiders fan and presumably one who doesn't care about the Bears, I don't understand your strange obsession with Griese

 

Last time I checked, I didn't have to be a Bears fan to discuss matters pertaining to the team. If I did, there wouldn't be fans of any other team besides the Cubs that post on this site now would there?

 

your point about practice is well taken although I still don't see how his practice and Grossman's lack thereof/status as a Florida alum has lead you to the conclusion that one is a capable NFL QB while the other is not. further, you clearly understand that you didn't express yourself clearly enough the first time, so I don't see the necessity of the drumroll or the sarcasm in that context.

 

as for the second part, if you take that as argumentative, I feel for your family and friends. the two times Griese was brought up earlier in the thread, you chose to seize on it and make a comment. that seemed strange to me considering you had little else to say on the topic of the Bears.

[texascub]

does anybody really think that NFL players are drafted based on college statistics?

 

they are drafted based on tools assessed through scouting and the battery of tests they receive in pre-draft workouts and combines. that is why Wuerffel went in the fourth round after winning the Heismann. that is why Shane Mattews went undrafted.

 

while I am fully aware that teams play games with measurements of players, Volek is listed at 6'2". Grossman at 6'1".

 

No sh*t? I was told that there was some sort of combine thing held in the midwest, but I didn't believe it :roll: Just because someone was drafted high doesn't mean that they were worth of that pick. Kyle Boller was selected higher than Grossman in the same year, so he's better than Grossman isn't he?

 

you can both stick your eyerolls. you too apparently are just trying to get into a pissing match with me.

 

so for some reason all these Florida QBs are capable of fooling NFL scouts. whatever. the obvious point was Grossman had skills that other Florida QBs didn't.

 

IMO your arguments use way too many assumptions. All serious football fans I know have their calendars marked for the NFL Combine, campus workouts, and pre-draft visits. It is well known that teams go over players with a fine-tooth comb before the draft. Teams do draft by what they see at the combine and at workouts, but that doesn't always mean that they're right. How often does a WR's 40-yard dash time affect his draft position? Kyle Boller can throw a football through the uprights from the 50-yard line off of his knees. He's got a strong arm and good measurable, but it doesn't make him a good NFL QB. I can't really recall Grossman ever showing much of an arm. I don't think he'll ever be capable of making strong, accurate passes downfield. Does that mean I think he's incapable of being an NFL QB? No. But it will limit him to being a WCO QB and not much more though.

[soccer10k]

as for the second part, if you take that as argumentative, I feel for your family and friends. the two times Griese was brought up earlier in the thread, you chose to seize on it and make a comment. that seemed strange to me considering you had little else to say on the topic of the Bears.

 

I took it as you trying to say that because I was a Raiders fan that I had no right to comment on the Bears and Brian Griese.

[David]

I can't really recall Grossman ever showing much of an arm. I don't think he'll ever be capable of making strong, accurate passes downfield. Does that mean I think he's incapable of being an NFL QB? No. But it will limit him to being a WCO QB and not much more though.

 

This couldn't be any further from the truth.

[jjgman21]

does anybody really think that NFL players are drafted based on college statistics?

 

they are drafted based on tools assessed through scouting and the battery of tests they receive in pre-draft workouts and combines. that is why Wuerffel went in the fourth round after winning the Heismann. that is why Shane Mattews went undrafted.

 

while I am fully aware that teams play games with measurements of players, Volek is listed at 6'2". Grossman at 6'1".

 

No sh*t? I was told that there was some sort of combine thing held in the midwest, but I didn't believe it :roll: Just because someone was drafted high doesn't mean that they were worth of that pick. Kyle Boller was selected higher than Grossman in the same year, so he's better than Grossman isn't he?

 

you can both stick your eyerolls. you too apparently are just trying to get into a pissing match with me.

 

so for some reason all these Florida QBs are capable of fooling NFL scouts. whatever. the obvious point was Grossman had skills that other Florida QBs didn't.

 

IMO your arguments use way too many assumptions. All serious football fans I know have their calendars marked for the NFL Combine, campus workouts, and pre-draft visits. It is well known that teams go over players with a fine-tooth comb before the draft. Teams do draft by what they see at the combine and at workouts, but that doesn't always mean that they're right. How often does a WR's 40-yard dash time affect his draft position? Kyle Boller can throw a football through the uprights from the 50-yard line off of his knees. He's got a strong arm and good measurable, but it doesn't make him a good NFL QB. I can't really recall Grossman ever showing much of an arm. I don't think he'll ever be capable of making strong, accurate passes downfield. Does that mean I think he's incapable of being an NFL QB? No. But it will limit him to being a WCO QB and not much more though.

 

I never said they were always right, but the Grossman pick is still an Inc. if you ask me for his grade. and the only assumption I made is that a QB can't be assessed on who his college coach was. how smart is it assuming a QB can't succeed in the NFL because of who his college coache was and his height? if there was any nonsensical assumption in this discussion it was you and soccer making this claim.

 

of all the things you mentioned, you failed to discuss the intelligence and psychological tests QBs in particular go through. Jeff George could throw the ball 80 yards with the flick of his wrist, but he was an obnoxious moron. same could be said for Ryan Leaf. Grossman scored highly on these tests. if Grossman only succeeds in a west coast offense, so be it. I'm not looking for him to succeed in a non-west coast offense, nor are the Bears.

[jjgman21]

as for the second part, if you take that as argumentative, I feel for your family and friends. the two times Griese was brought up earlier in the thread, you chose to seize on it and make a comment. that seemed strange to me considering you had little else to say on the topic of the Bears.

 

I took it as you trying to say that because I was a Raiders fan that I had no right to comment on the Bears and Brian Griese.

 

no, I'm an unpopular, argumentative poster, but I don't play that game. I can't stand it when posters tell each other they should not comment on something...with a couple exceptions (ie. demonstrations of hypocrisy or old worn out comments about 'can't walk across home plate.')

 

sorry you took it that way. not how I meant it.

[soccer10k]

as for the second part, if you take that as argumentative, I feel for your family and friends. the two times Griese was brought up earlier in the thread, you chose to seize on it and make a comment. that seemed strange to me considering you had little else to say on the topic of the Bears.

 

I took it as you trying to say that because I was a Raiders fan that I had no right to comment on the Bears and Brian Griese.

 

no, I'm an unpopular, argumentative poster, but I don't play that game. I can't stand it when posters tell each other they should not comment on something...with a couple exceptions (ie. demonstrations of hypocrisy or old worn out comments about 'can't walk across home plate.')

 

sorry you took it that way. not how I meant it.

 

Fair enough.

[texascub]

does anybody really think that NFL players are drafted based on college statistics?

 

they are drafted based on tools assessed through scouting and the battery of tests they receive in pre-draft workouts and combines. that is why Wuerffel went in the fourth round after winning the Heismann. that is why Shane Mattews went undrafted.

 

while I am fully aware that teams play games with measurements of players, Volek is listed at 6'2". Grossman at 6'1".

 

No sh*t? I was told that there was some sort of combine thing held in the midwest, but I didn't believe it :roll: Just because someone was drafted high doesn't mean that they were worth of that pick. Kyle Boller was selected higher than Grossman in the same year, so he's better than Grossman isn't he?

 

you can both stick your eyerolls. you too apparently are just trying to get into a pissing match with me.

 

so for some reason all these Florida QBs are capable of fooling NFL scouts. whatever. the obvious point was Grossman had skills that other Florida QBs didn't.

 

IMO your arguments use way too many assumptions. All serious football fans I know have their calendars marked for the NFL Combine, campus workouts, and pre-draft visits. It is well known that teams go over players with a fine-tooth comb before the draft. Teams do draft by what they see at the combine and at workouts, but that doesn't always mean that they're right. How often does a WR's 40-yard dash time affect his draft position? Kyle Boller can throw a football through the uprights from the 50-yard line off of his knees. He's got a strong arm and good measurable, but it doesn't make him a good NFL QB. I can't really recall Grossman ever showing much of an arm. I don't think he'll ever be capable of making strong, accurate passes downfield. Does that mean I think he's incapable of being an NFL QB? No. But it will limit him to being a WCO QB and not much more though.

 

I never said they were always right, but the Grossman pick is still an Inc. if you ask me for his grade. and the only assumption I made is that a QB can't be assessed on who his college coach was. how smart is it assuming a QB can't succeed in the NFL because of who his college coache was and his height? if there was any nonsensical assumption in this discussion it was you and soccer making this claim.

 

of all the things you mentioned, you failed to discuss the intelligence and psychological tests QBs in particular go through. Jeff George could throw the ball 80 yards with the flick of his wrist, but he was an obnoxious moron. same could be said for Ryan Leaf. Grossman scored highly on these tests. if Grossman only succeeds in a west coast offense, so be it. I'm not looking for him to succeed in a non-west coast offense, nor are the Bears.

 

His college coaches have a large part in his development as a player though. That's like saying that Cubs' system is failing to produce quality players because we draft stupid players when infact it's because of a flawed coaching philosophy. Short QB's often are not success in the NFL because of the size of the OL they play behind. If he does a good job of finding the lanes it won't be much of a problem, but he'll probably have more problems seeing the field than a QB who is say 6'4".

 

George may not have been very bright, but he was still able to turn his skills into a 12-year NFL career where he played in atleast 13 games in seven seasons. Physical ability will carry someone further in the NFL than smarts can. Intelligence will help, but without the physical skills it isn't going to do a player much good. Craig Krenzel was supposed to be a brainiac but didn't turn out to be much of a QB. Grossman will work for the Bears' needs right now, but if they ever change offensive systems he won't be of much use most likley.

[jjgman21]

 

Intelligence will help, but without the physical skills it isn't going to do a player much good. Craig Krenzel was supposed to be a brainiac but didn't turn out to be much of a QB.

 

I disagree wholeheartedly. it works in reverse. you look at the list of the greatest quarterbacks, the quarterbacks that won championships, and for the most part they got by on making the right decisions with the ball and managing the game, not exceptional skills.

 

Starr, Unitas, Montana, Brady, Staubach. all known for their intelligence and leadership more than their raw talent.

 

of course you need some skills, but all the arm strength in the world makes little difference if you don't read the defense properly or go forcing plays when they aren't there.

 

Krenzel, he had NO skills and we're also talking a different area of intelligence. as for Grossman, I think you are underestimating his skills and he's already proven the ability to make the right decisions with the ball in only 9 NFL starts, so his development at Florida is a moot point. even in last nights debacle he made all the right decisions with the ball.

[NCCubFan]

No sh*t?

Watch your language. Using an asterisk in place of the letter is considered the same as using the word.

 

And everybody, enough with the back-and-forth insults. Commenting about someone's IQ, telling a poster to stick it with their smileys, etc. is uncalled for. Everybody's entitled to their opinion, and to disagree with others' opinions, but you do need to be civil when disagreeing.

[soccer10k]

No sh*t?

Watch your language. Using an asterisk in place of the letter is considered the same as using the word.

 

And everybody, enough with the back-and-forth insults. Commenting about someone's IQ, telling a poster to stick it with their smileys, etc. is uncalled for. Everybody's entitled to their opinion, and to disagree with others' opinions, but you do need to be civil when disagreeing.

 

I think jjgman21 and I were able to come to a peaceful solution to our argument even though it got fairly heated. Your comments are well received and will be remembered but I would like to thank the mods (assuming some of you were watching the argument) for giving the two of us some leeway and allowing us to settle the argument on our own.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I can't really recall Grossman ever showing much of an arm. I don't think he'll ever be capable of making strong, accurate passes downfield. Does that mean I think he's incapable of being an NFL QB? No. But it will limit him to being a WCO QB and not much more though.

 

This couldn't be any further from the truth.

 

Getting on the QFT bandwagon here.

[UK1679666180]

I think Grossman does everything good w/nothing great and has no weakness besides his height and occasionally touch on the ball.

 

He has good enough arm strength (probably his greatest strength) is in the top half of starting NFL QBs.

 

His accuracy is probably around the middle of the pack at this stage.

 

His mobility is around the same as his accuracy, it doesn't jump out at me as being a strength.

 

His ability to read defense at the line or make adjustments on the fly doesn't sway me in either direction. Neither does his ability to lead at this stage.

 

I think he'll be an avg. starting QB as he progresses thru his career. Good to enough to start, but not good enough to make the Pro Bowl.

[rawaction]

I think Grossman does everything good w/nothing great and has no weakness besides his height and occasionally touch on the ball.

 

He has good enough arm strength (probably his greatest strength) is in the top half of starting NFL QBs.

 

His accuracy is probably around the middle of the pack at this stage.

 

His mobility is around the same as his accuracy, it doesn't jump out at me as being a strength.

 

His ability to read defense at the line or make adjustments on the fly doesn't sway me in either direction. Neither does his ability to lead at this stage.

 

I think he'll be an avg. starting QB as he progresses thru his career. Good to enough to start, but not good enough to make the Pro Bowl.

 

I agree for the most part. Rex has an absolute cannon. Not Farve or Vick strong, but he can sling it as hard and far as anyone else. I still think Grossman can develop into a slightly above average QB. I think he can lead a team to a SuperBowl. Remember, he's probably the most raw of all the starting QBs in this league. His time at Florida was wasted in a spread offense, that did nothing to get him ready for the NFL. And obviously, he hasn't been on the field enough to progress yet. He reminds me of Jeff Garcia. He wasn't a great QB, but had a couple of really good seasons, I think Rex can be that type of QB.

[jjgman21]

anyone hear any word on the extent of Vash's back injury? just a mild strain?

[Butterscup1679666578]

anyone hear any word on the extent of Vash's back injury? just a mild strain?

 

That's all I heard. I saw an interview with Lovie and he didn't seem very concerned.

[Soul]

Interesting banter back and forth (minus the insults), but I feel it necessary to point out the obvious. This was the first preseason game, and has absolutely no bearing (no pun intended) on the upcoming season.

 

It was a glorified practice, nothing more. As are all preseason games. Looks like we emerged without any serious injuries.

[Soul]

...

[MidoreX]

This was the first preseason game, and has absolutely no bearing (no pun intended) on the upcoming season.

 

It was a glorified practice, nothing more. As are all preseason games. Looks like we emerged without any serious injuries.

 

You might've spoke too soon...

 

 

Looks like Mike Brown hurt his achillies again. It is said to be just a "twinge" (i hate ambiguous injury descriptions), they aren't too sure but they think he'll be back for the openner. Losing Brown in 2004 and late last year hurt big time, hopefully he can get back to 100% quickly.

[goonys evil twin]

This was the first preseason game, and has absolutely no bearing (no pun intended) on the upcoming season.

 

It was a glorified practice, nothing more. As are all preseason games. Looks like we emerged without any serious injuries.

 

You might've spoke too soon...

 

 

Looks like Mike Brown hurt his achillies again. It is said to be just a "twinge" (i hate ambiguous injury descriptions), they aren't too sure but they think he'll be back for the openner. Losing Brown in 2004 and late last year hurt big time, hopefully he can get back to 100% quickly.

 

I believe that this year's offseason strategy was partly based on the assumption that Mike Brown is completely unreliable and may be close to done in the NFL, due to health reasons. They've got loads of DBack help now, and can probably withstand losing Brown for at least a few games.

[Banedon]

This was the first preseason game, and has absolutely no bearing (no pun intended) on the upcoming season.

 

It was a glorified practice, nothing more. As are all preseason games. Looks like we emerged without any serious injuries.

 

You might've spoke too soon...

 

 

Looks like Mike Brown hurt his achillies again. It is said to be just a "twinge" (i hate ambiguous injury descriptions), they aren't too sure but they think he'll be back for the openner. Losing Brown in 2004 and late last year hurt big time, hopefully he can get back to 100% quickly.

 

I believe that this year's offseason strategy was partly based on the assumption that Mike Brown is completely unreliable and may be close to done in the NFL, due to health reasons. They've got loads of DBack help now, and can probably withstand losing Brown for at least a few games.

 

If only the Cubs would plan around players whose health is unreliable.

[goonys evil twin]

If only the Cubs would plan around players whose health is unreliable.

 

They do plan around them, they just don't plan to make do without them. I believe the Bears have in this instance.

[Soul]

True. Looks like I opened my big mouth too soon. Again :cry:

 

I have heard that this is the other achilles, not the one he originally injuried. I'm not sure about that though. Not that it really matters. You kind of need both.

[Banedon]

Thomas Jones is practicing today....the last day of camp.

[goonys evil twin]

Thomas Jones is practicing today....the last day of camp.

 

Good to see, hopefully he can get the job done early in the season and Benson can earn his playing time with his own production.