2B in 2007

[CubColtPacer]

The problem isn't gonna be the IF offense. I could actually live with Izturis/Cedeno in the IF, given that not many teams have 2 strong bats up the middle,

 

Not any good teams have two bats as weak as those in their middle infield.

 

I think Izturis and Cedeno could out-produce Ellis and Crosby in Oakland this year. I know it's the exception rather than the norm, but it is possible. I think there are multiple contenders who are in the neighborhood of a .700 OPS and it's really not a huge difference in the long haul if you're at .650 instead.

 

Of course we need a major upgrade in the outfield spots to be able to hide that at all.

 

OBP is the more important of the two components of OPS, and these guys are both sub .300 OBP guys. Oakland really isn't a good team, they are just the best of a bad division. They are only on pace for 85 wins. Good teams, teams that want to win 90+ games a year and be real contenders, don't go into the season with the ineptitude at both middle infield spots that the Cubs currently have.

 

What makes you think Izturis will be a sub .300 OBP player? He has been over .300 each of the last 3 seasons at age 24, 25, and 26-and played hurt half of last season, and is just coming back this season-do you think he has greater potential to have better numbers next year, or to decline, and why?

[HoopsCubs]

Ray Durham will likely be available.

 

I'm guessing that Hendry will take a strong look at Adam Kennedy.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Loretta!

[cubfan1955]

What makes you think Izturis will be a sub .300 OBP player? He has been over .300 each of the last 3 seasons at age 24, 25, and 26-and played hurt half of last season, and is just coming back this season-do you think he has greater potential to have better numbers next year, or to decline, and why?

His career OBP is .295. The last 2 years it's been .302. His highwater mark was .330 in 2004. If he could get back to that, while not great, it would be quite a turn around.

[abuck1220]

i love that those that like this trade are looking for izturis to regain his 2004 form -- when he posted a stellar .711 OPS. yeah, that's something to be excited about.

[Pickle]

i love that those that like this trade are looking for izturis to regain his 2004 form -- when he posted a stellar .711 OPS. yeah, that's something to be excited about.

 

Izturis is out there for his glove, not his bat. Defense is important, too.

[cubfan1955]

i love that those that like this trade are looking for izturis to regain his 2004 form -- when he posted a stellar .711 OPS. yeah, that's something to be excited about.

 

Izturis is out there for his glove, not his bat. Defense is important, too.

On a team that already can't get on base and can't score? Defense was not what this team needed.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

i love that those that like this trade are looking for izturis to regain his 2004 form -- when he posted a stellar .711 OPS. yeah, that's something to be excited about.

 

Izturis is out there for his glove, not his bat. Defense is important, too.

 

Not nearly as important when it isn't the problem to begin with.

[hawkeyecub]

The problem isn't gonna be the IF offense. I could actually live with Izturis/Cedeno in the IF, given that not many teams have 2 strong bats up the middle,

 

Not any good teams have two bats as weak as those in their middle infield.

 

I think Izturis and Cedeno could out-produce Ellis and Crosby in Oakland this year. I know it's the exception rather than the norm, but it is possible. I think there are multiple contenders who are in the neighborhood of a .700 OPS and it's really not a huge difference in the long haul if you're at .650 instead.

 

Of course we need a major upgrade in the outfield spots to be able to hide that at all.

 

OBP is the more important of the two components of OPS, and these guys are both sub .300 OBP guys. Oakland really isn't a good team, they are just the best of a bad division. They are only on pace for 85 wins. Good teams, teams that want to win 90+ games a year and be real contenders, don't go into the season with the ineptitude at both middle infield spots that the Cubs currently have.

 

What matters is how many spots in the lineup have a weak bat. There have been plenty of 90-win teams that have two weak spots in the offense, so whether it's at SS and 2B or SS and C is irrelevant.

The key is that Barrett continues to produce and we improve the outfield. If I were confident that we could substantially improve the outfield I would feel better about this move.

[cheapseats]

 

I'm guessing that Hendry will take a strong look at Adam Kennedy.

 

If Cedeno isn't the 2B next year, I bet it will be Kennedy, who has been one of the worst everyday 2B in baseball this year.

[CubColtPacer]

i love that those that like this trade are looking for izturis to regain his 2004 form -- when he posted a stellar .711 OPS. yeah, that's something to be excited about.

 

I think those that are somewhat happy with this deal are happy for 2 reasons

1) Yes, a 711 OPS is not that great-but it's about average for a shortstop-average OBP, slightly below average slugging for a shortstop. Combine that with his great defense, and you have a pretty good shortstop.

2)If the choice at short is Izturis or Cedeno, Izturis is a much better player. He is better offensively, and much better defensively. He won't be nearly the hole that Cedeno has been in the lineup-so this is an upgrade in talent. Now we'll see if Hendry can find the offensive player to play at second to go with him.

[rawaction]

i love that those that like this trade are looking for izturis to regain his 2004 form -- when he posted a stellar .711 OPS. yeah, that's something to be excited about.

 

I think those that are somewhat happy with this deal are happy for 2 reasons

1) Yes, a 711 OPS is not that great-but it's about average for a shortstop-average OBP, slightly below average slugging for a shortstop. Combine that with his great defense, and you have a pretty good shortstop.

2)If the choice at short is Izturis or Cedeno, Izturis is a much better player. He is better offensively, and much better defensively. He won't be nearly the hole that Cedeno has been in the lineup-so this is an upgrade in talent. Now we'll see if Hendry can find the offensive player to play at second to go with him.

 

I'm sorry, but none of that is true. Izturis is bad. Defense doesn't make him good. Cedeno can and will get better, Izturis can't and won't (at least when compared to his 04).

[cubfan1955]

i love that those that like this trade are looking for izturis to regain his 2004 form -- when he posted a stellar .711 OPS. yeah, that's something to be excited about.

 

I think those that are somewhat happy with this deal are happy for 2 reasons

1) Yes, a 711 OPS is not that great-but it's about average for a shortstop-average OBP, slightly below average slugging for a shortstop. Combine that with his great defense, and you have a pretty good shortstop.

2)If the choice at short is Izturis or Cedeno, Izturis is a much better player. He is better offensively, and much better defensively. He won't be nearly the hole that Cedeno has been in the lineup-so this is an upgrade in talent. Now we'll see if Hendry can find the offensive player to play at second to go with him.

How is Izturis better offensively than Ronny? In Izturis first full year in the majors he hit .232 with a .253 OBP compared to Ronny this year at .255 BA and .280 OBP so far. In his 2nd full season Izturis hit .251 BA and .282 OBP. I really believe Cedeno will progress enough to top that next year. Izturis has already had his career year and has regressed since then although I will give you he's been injured.

[CubColtPacer]

i love that those that like this trade are looking for izturis to regain his 2004 form -- when he posted a stellar .711 OPS. yeah, that's something to be excited about.

 

I think those that are somewhat happy with this deal are happy for 2 reasons

1) Yes, a 711 OPS is not that great-but it's about average for a shortstop-average OBP, slightly below average slugging for a shortstop. Combine that with his great defense, and you have a pretty good shortstop.

2)If the choice at short is Izturis or Cedeno, Izturis is a much better player. He is better offensively, and much better defensively. He won't be nearly the hole that Cedeno has been in the lineup-so this is an upgrade in talent. Now we'll see if Hendry can find the offensive player to play at second to go with him.

How is Izturis better offensively than Ronny? In Izturis first full year in the majors he hit .232 with a .253 OBP compared to Ronny this year at .255 BA and .280 OBP so far. In his 2nd full season Izturis hit .251 BA and .282 OBP. I really believe Cedeno will progress enough to top that next year. Izturis has already had his career year and has regressed since then although I will give you he's been injured.

 

It certainly is possible that Cedeno will be as good or better than Izturis offensively in 3 years. Cedeno can even make up the year he lost (Izturis's 1st year as a starter was when he was 22, Cedeno 23) if he doesn't get injured like Izturis does. I just don't think he's going to get that much better than Izturis is now, and so I'd rather take the sure thing. It is the same way I felt about the Choi-Lee trade-Lee then was about the player that I thought Choi could be if he developed, so we might as well take the sure thing. Izturis also has potential to improve-many of the great defensive shortstops over the years didn't really start hitting any better than Izturis is until they were 28, 29, 30. Izturis has the same hitting progression until he got hurt, and hasn't had the time since then to see if he can continue that progression.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

How many runs will Izturis save us over the course of a season with his defense?

[A New Era]

What makes you think Izturis will be a sub .300 OBP player? He has been over .300 each of the last 3 seasons at age 24, 25, and 26-and played hurt half of last season, and is just coming back this season-do you think he has greater potential to have better numbers next year, or to decline, and why?

His career OBP is .295. The last 2 years it's been .302. His highwater mark was .330 in 2004. If he could get back to that, while not great, it would be quite a turn around.

 

And I'll add to that. In those years he was 22, 23, 24, 25, and 26. I realize alot of people like to point at minor league #'s (and Izzy's aren't very good). . But there are players who can improve their OBP as they approach their prime years. So I beleive since he was showing improvement up until his injury. If he is healthy he can get back on track to improving it toward .330 this year and next year. And I think CubColt agrees with me here. But we both have good points.

[CubColtPacer]

How many runs will Izturis save us over the course of a season with his defense?

 

I think he can save us 30-40 runs a year on defense. He can make 4-5 extra outs per week, which will save us 1-2 runs a week. These will come from partly some balls that he can get to that other people cannot, and partly doing things like turning more double plays effectively when he gets the chance.

[A New Era]

i love that those that like this trade are looking for izturis to regain his 2004 form -- when he posted a stellar .711 OPS. yeah, that's something to be excited about.

 

I think those that are somewhat happy with this deal are happy for 2 reasons

1) Yes, a 711 OPS is not that great-but it's about average for a shortstop-average OBP, slightly below average slugging for a shortstop. Combine that with his great defense, and you have a pretty good shortstop.

2)If the choice at short is Izturis or Cedeno, Izturis is a much better player. He is better offensively, and much better defensively. He won't be nearly the hole that Cedeno has been in the lineup-so this is an upgrade in talent. Now we'll see if Hendry can find the offensive player to play at second to go with him.

 

I'm sorry, but none of that is true. Izturis is bad. Defense doesn't make him good. Cedeno can and will get better, Izturis can't and won't (at least when compared to his 04).

 

Why can't Izturis get better? Sorry I missed that magical memo all the Izzy naysayers were sent.

[sethuel1]

How many runs will Izturis save us over the course of a season with his defense?

 

I think he can save us 30-40 runs a year on defense. He can make 4-5 extra outs per week, which will save us 1-2 runs a week. These will come from partly some balls that he can get to that other people cannot, and partly doing things like turning more double plays effectively when he gets the chance.

 

I think he can build a spaceship out of cardboard and dreams.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

How many runs will Izturis save us over the course of a season with his defense?

 

I think he can save us 30-40 runs a year on defense. He can make 4-5 extra outs per week, which will save us 1-2 runs a week. These will come from partly some balls that he can get to that other people cannot, and partly doing things like turning more double plays effectively when he gets the chance.

 

I think 30-40 is on the high side, but whatever. How many runs would someone like Tejada get us over the course of a season with his offense?

[Pickle]

i love that those that like this trade are looking for izturis to regain his 2004 form -- when he posted a stellar .711 OPS. yeah, that's something to be excited about.

 

I think those that are somewhat happy with this deal are happy for 2 reasons

1) Yes, a 711 OPS is not that great-but it's about average for a shortstop-average OBP, slightly below average slugging for a shortstop. Combine that with his great defense, and you have a pretty good shortstop.

2)If the choice at short is Izturis or Cedeno, Izturis is a much better player. He is better offensively, and much better defensively. He won't be nearly the hole that Cedeno has been in the lineup-so this is an upgrade in talent. Now we'll see if Hendry can find the offensive player to play at second to go with him.

 

I'm sorry, but none of that is true. Izturis is bad. Defense doesn't make him good. Cedeno can and will get better, Izturis can't and won't (at least when compared to his 04).

 

Why won't he get better? Is there something that you know that no one else knows? Check out Omar Vizquel's stats his first few years in the league. They weren't that good and he turned out to be a pretty good hitter. I've never seen Izturis over an extended period of time, but Vizquel's name seems to pop up a lot when measuring his D against another player.

[Exile on Waveland]

How many runs will Izturis save us over the course of a season with his defense?

 

I think he can save us 30-40 runs a year on defense. He can make 4-5 extra outs per week, which will save us 1-2 runs a week. These will come from partly some balls that he can get to that other people cannot, and partly doing things like turning more double plays effectively when he gets the chance.

 

I think he can build a spaceship out of cardboard and dreams.

 

Damn you. I just spit water on computer screen at work.

[CubColtPacer]

How many runs will Izturis save us over the course of a season with his defense?

 

I think he can save us 30-40 runs a year on defense. He can make 4-5 extra outs per week, which will save us 1-2 runs a week. These will come from partly some balls that he can get to that other people cannot, and partly doing things like turning more double plays effectively when he gets the chance.

 

I think 30-40 is on the high side, but whatever. How many runs would someone like Tejada get us over the course of a season with his offense?

 

Hmm-well, I'd say again about 4-5 hits a week, but that will cause us to get 2-3 extra runs a week because some of those will be XBH, so more like 55-60 runs. The difference between the top 5 shortstops and everyone else offensively is too high to make up for the change in defense.

[abuck1220]

How many runs will Izturis save us over the course of a season with his defense?

 

I think he can save us 30-40 runs a year on defense. He can make 4-5 extra outs per week, which will save us 1-2 runs a week. These will come from partly some balls that he can get to that other people cannot, and partly doing things like turning more double plays effectively when he gets the chance.

 

I think 30-40 is on the high side, but whatever. How many runs would someone like Tejada get us over the course of a season with his offense?

 

Hmm-well, I'd say again about 4-5 hits a week, but that will cause us to get 2-3 extra runs a week because some of those will be XBH, so more like 55-60 runs. The difference between the top 5 shortstops and everyone else offensively is too high to make up for the change in defense.

 

first of all, no way he takes away 5 hits a week. that's crazy. second of all, i'd love to see a play where a shortstop takes away an extra base hit.

[CubColtPacer]

How many runs will Izturis save us over the course of a season with his defense?

 

I think he can save us 30-40 runs a year on defense. He can make 4-5 extra outs per week, which will save us 1-2 runs a week. These will come from partly some balls that he can get to that other people cannot, and partly doing things like turning more double plays effectively when he gets the chance.

 

I think 30-40 is on the high side, but whatever. How many runs would someone like Tejada get us over the course of a season with his offense?

 

Hmm-well, I'd say again about 4-5 hits a week, but that will cause us to get 2-3 extra runs a week because some of those will be XBH, so more like 55-60 runs. The difference between the top 5 shortstops and everyone else offensively is too high to make up for the change in defense.

 

first of all, no way he takes away 5 hits a week. that's crazy. second of all, i'd love to see a play where a shortstop takes away an extra base hit.

 

Uh-the last one you quoted was Tejada's offense, which is where the XBH came into play.