2B in 2007

[HoopsCubs]

Im pretty sure Hendry is not going to have a Izturis/Cedeno middle infield next year. He will go out and get a player like Tejeda to play SS. Tejeda/Izturis is a middle infield he would like.

 

Possibly. Depending on Washington's and Minnesota's 2007 payroll situations though, I don't think we can rule out Hendry making possible trades for Jose Vidro or Luis Castillo. Hendry has liked Vidro in the past, and if he is available you know Derrek and Juan will actively campaign for Castillo.

 

NOT Castillo. He is getitng older, and speed is a major part of his game. You cannot count on Vidro to play a whole season. He is never healthy. Tejeda is the guy. A Package of Prior, Pie, Cedeno and another arm should get Tejeda.

 

Including Prior will be overpaying in my opinion. The key is the 3 years and $38M remaining on Tejada's deal (2007-2009). If Mr. Hendry absorbs most of it, I think he can get him for Cedeno, one of Marshall/Marmol/Guzman/Hill and a high prospect.

[UK1679666180]

Im pretty sure Hendry is not going to have a Izturis/Cedeno middle infield next year. He will go out and get a player like Tejeda to play SS. Tejeda/Izturis is a middle infield he would like.

 

Too many variables to assume.

 

1)The Cubs will be interested in Tejada after acq'g Izturis for SS.

2)Balt. will field offers for Tejada.

3)No other team will be interested in Tejada.

4)The Cubs will outbid any team for Tejada.

5)The Cubs will have more to offer than any other team interested in him.

6)The Cubs have given up on Cedeno.

[HoopsCubs]

Im pretty sure Hendry is not going to have a Izturis/Cedeno middle infield next year. He will go out and get a player like Tejeda to play SS. Tejeda/Izturis is a middle infield he would like.

 

Too many variables to assume.

 

1)The Cubs will be interested in Tejada after acq's Izturis for SS.

2)Balt. will field offers for Tejada.

3)No other team will be interested in Tejada.

4)The Cubs will outbid any team for Tejada.

5)The Cubs will have more to offer than any other team interested in him.

6)The Cubs have given up on Cedeno.

 

Can Tejada play 2B? I'm sure that would not be his preference, but in any Tejada/Izturis middle IF, Cesar should be the one playing SS.

[UK1679666180]

Im pretty sure Hendry is not going to have a Izturis/Cedeno middle infield next year. He will go out and get a player like Tejeda to play SS. Tejeda/Izturis is a middle infield he would like.

 

Too many variables to assume.

 

1)The Cubs will be interested in Tejada after acq's Izturis for SS.

2)Balt. will field offers for Tejada.

3)No other team will be interested in Tejada.

4)The Cubs will outbid any team for Tejada.

5)The Cubs will have more to offer than any other team interested in him.

6)The Cubs have given up on Cedeno.

 

Can Tejada play 2B? I'm sure that would not be his preference, but in any Tejada/Izturis middle IF, Cesar should be the one playing SS.

 

Tools-wise, he can definitely play 2B, everything is there for him to do well there. Media reports had him not wanting him to shift to 3B had he been traded to the Dodgers.

 

I also forgot to mention other factors that might lead to Tejada staying in Balt. and that is if higher up parties within their organization want him to stay in Balt. that'll make trade impossible for him.

[baseball7897]

Im pretty sure Hendry is not going to have a Izturis/Cedeno middle infield next year. He will go out and get a player like Tejeda to play SS. Tejeda/Izturis is a middle infield he would like.

 

Too many variables to assume.

 

1)The Cubs will be interested in Tejada after acq's Izturis for SS.

2)Balt. will field offers for Tejada.

3)No other team will be interested in Tejada.

4)The Cubs will outbid any team for Tejada.

5)The Cubs will have more to offer than any other team interested in him.

6)The Cubs have given up on Cedeno.

 

Can Tejada play 2B? I'm sure that would not be his preference, but in any Tejada/Izturis middle IF, Cesar should be the one playing SS.

 

Tools-wise, he can definitely play 2B, everything is there for him to do well there. Media reports had him not wanting him to shift to 3B had he been traded to the Dodgers.

 

I also forgot to mention other factors that might lead to Tejada staying in Balt. and that is if higher up parties within their organization want him to stay in Balt. that'll make trade impossible for him.

 

Your probably right. The owner has blocked alot of trades that the Gm wanted to make for Tejeda.

[CubsInNC]

Of course defense important, but it must always remain in it's proper balance with good pitching and (over hitting) OBP. Defense is 3rd in it's importance (relative to the 3) but still important overall.

• 
  If you have 9 butchers in the field, but good pitchers and the ability to get on base well, you will have a wide range in the scoring of games, but a monster offense that will win some games 12-2 and lose some at 14-13.
   
  If you have the 9 stellar defenders and good pitchers, but no OBP, you're looking at losing 3-1, 2-0 on a fairly regular basis.
   
  If you have the defense and OBP, but no pitching, with the Cubs frequency of flyball pitchers you're going to lose, more often than not, really big. If you had sinkerballers, you'd probably win more than lose, but statistically close to a wash.

 

On the Cubs, we have "stellar" defense, below average pitching (flyball pitchers at that), and a much-much-much below average ability to get on base. So, while our top notch defense might save us on grounders, we'd need superior leapers (think 1000"+ vertical) to save us significantly in the RSA department. It's not measurable, and importance might be minimal, but psychologically, especially in tough situations, it can make a pitcher more confident in the approach to the batter to know that if the ball is hit on the ground, the defense can and will field it, and get the out. It's not something to build a team around, but the idea is valid.

 

Improving defense was not what this team needs, unless the byproduct of our improvement means that Cedeno or Izturis adds a piece to a trade puzzle in the offseason that nets us the impact offensive player or #1/2 starter that we have to have.

[RationalSoxFan]

Im pretty sure Hendry is not going to have a Izturis/Cedeno middle infield next year. He will go out and get a player like Tejeda to play SS. Tejeda/Izturis is a middle infield he would like.

 

Possibly. Depending on Washington's and Minnesota's 2007 payroll situations though, I don't think we can rule out Hendry making possible trades for Jose Vidro or Luis Castillo. Hendry has liked Vidro in the past, and if he is available you know Derrek and Juan will actively campaign for Castillo.

 

NOT Castillo. He is getitng older, and speed is a major part of his game. You cannot count on Vidro to play a whole season. He is never healthy. Tejeda is the guy. A Package of Prior, Pie, Cedeno and another arm should get Tejeda.

Prior's value has NEVER, EVER been lower. Pie is struggling at AAA, posting a .729 OPS, Cedeno's VORP is -13, and unless that other arm is named Zambrano, I have no reason to believe that Angelos would let this trade go through. Where do you find all this faith in Hendry? Why wouldn't he go into the season with that infield? It's like his wet dream.

[baseball7897]

Defense saves runs, saves runners from getting on base, and it also helps the pitcher out.

[goonys evil twin]

Defense saves runs, saves runners from getting on base, and it also helps the pitcher out.

 

To a much more limited amount than pitching saves runs and offense scores runs.

[E.J.]

I could see Hendry trying to sign Adam Kennedy to play 2b next year. He's a free agent this coming offseason, and is basically Todd Walker with less pop and a better glove.

[frostwyrm]

Im pretty sure Hendry is not going to have a Izturis/Cedeno middle infield next year. He will go out and get a player like Tejeda to play SS. Tejeda/Izturis is a middle infield he would like.

 

Possibly. Depending on Washington's and Minnesota's 2007 payroll situations though, I don't think we can rule out Hendry making possible trades for Jose Vidro or Luis Castillo. Hendry has liked Vidro in the past, and if he is available you know Derrek and Juan will actively campaign for Castillo.

 

NOT Castillo. He is getitng older, and speed is a major part of his game. You cannot count on Vidro to play a whole season. He is never healthy. Tejeda is the guy. A Package of Prior, Pie, Cedeno and another arm should get Tejeda.

Prior/Pie/Cedeno is not a very strong offer at the present time. If it were that easy to get Tejada then the O's would've already made a deal.

[frostwyrm]

Defense saves runs, saves runners from getting on base, and it also helps the pitcher out.

 

To a much more limited amount than pitching saves runs and offense scores runs.

Defense in baseball is about on the level of special teams in football. It's important, but you'd be crazy to build a team around it.

[dew1679666265]

Defense saves runs, saves runners from getting on base, and it also helps the pitcher out.

 

To a much more limited amount than pitching saves runs and offense scores runs.

Defense in baseball is about on the level of special teams in football. It's important, but you'd be crazy to build a team around it.

 

I agree with this statement but I think it raises an interesting point. Football teams do go out and add return men, Dante Hall for the Chiefs and Pacman Jones for the Titans, with the intent to improve the special teams thus improving the team overall. Building off your argument, the Cubs have done exactly this adding Cesar Izturis to a decent defense. The key now will be to go out in the offseason and getting some good offensive players to compliment Izturis' glove. Just like the Chiefs need to improve their defense and the Titans simply need talent on offense and defense to compliment each teams stellar return games.

[goonys evil twin]

Defense saves runs, saves runners from getting on base, and it also helps the pitcher out.

 

To a much more limited amount than pitching saves runs and offense scores runs.

Defense in baseball is about on the level of special teams in football. It's important, but you'd be crazy to build a team around it.

 

I agree with this statement but I think it raises an interesting point. Football teams do go out and add return men, Dante Hall for the Chiefs and Pacman Jones for the Titans, with the intent to improve the special teams thus improving the team overall. Building off your argument, the Cubs have done exactly this adding Cesar Izturis to a decent defense. The key now will be to go out in the offseason and getting some good offensive players to compliment Izturis' glove. Just like the Chiefs need to improve their defense and the Titans simply need talent on offense and defense to compliment each teams stellar return games.

 

The special teams comp isn't all that good, because you can score on special teams, not in the field in baseball. There is no Danta Hall equivalent on defense in baseball. Defense is more like the kickoff and punt coverage team in football. You have the kicker, but he also works with offense, and the vast majority of the coverage guys are just backups for other positions, and not highly paid. Not to mention, replacable at the drop of a hat.

[dew1679666265]

Defense saves runs, saves runners from getting on base, and it also helps the pitcher out.

 

To a much more limited amount than pitching saves runs and offense scores runs.

Defense in baseball is about on the level of special teams in football. It's important, but you'd be crazy to build a team around it.

 

I agree with this statement but I think it raises an interesting point. Football teams do go out and add return men, Dante Hall for the Chiefs and Pacman Jones for the Titans, with the intent to improve the special teams thus improving the team overall. Building off your argument, the Cubs have done exactly this adding Cesar Izturis to a decent defense. The key now will be to go out in the offseason and getting some good offensive players to compliment Izturis' glove. Just like the Chiefs need to improve their defense and the Titans simply need talent on offense and defense to compliment each teams stellar return games.

 

The special teams comp isn't all that good, because you can score on special teams, not in the field in baseball. There is no Danta Hall equivalent on defense in baseball. Defense is more like the kickoff and punt coverage team in football. You have the kicker, but he also works with offense, and the vast majority of the coverage guys are just backups for other positions, and not highly paid. Not to mention, replacable at the drop of a hat.

 

This is not always the case as multiple teams over the years have actually put starters on special teams coverage in order to stop the other team from getting ideal field position, though most of the time it is rookies getting a chance to get some action. I do not advocate building a team around defense and letting everything else work itself out, but I do feel that defense does have enough impact on the game to not ignore it completly, much like kick coverage people make things harder for the other team to score. The real question is though, is it not important not only to score runs yourself but also to stop the other team from scoring (hence combining pitching and defense)?

[CubColtPacer]

I think there is one other thing to consider when thinking about how big of a role defense should play-and that is that our pitching will be young. If we go with a rotation of 2 or 3 young pitchers, hits tend to multiply on young pitching especially. They sail through a couple innings, but can have trouble especially when runners get on base (this is based purely on observation over the years). Errors can also cause young pitchers to get flustered, and cause more hits and runs. Veteran pitchers can more easily shake off errors behind them in the field, but rookies need that confidence that they don't have to throw the ball past the hitters in order to win-that if they let them hit the ball into play, outs are going to be recorded. I can't tell you how much more valuable, but defense definitely becomes more valuable with a young pitcher on the mound.

[Warpticon]

I can't believe all this hatred towards Izturis? I don't get it. We just improved our defense a ton and sure his offense isn't the best, but he's 26 years old. He still is improving. Let him play a game in a Cubs uniform before we start to boo him. I remember all the negative posts when we got Barrett. Now he's one of the best offensive catchers in the game.

1. Nobody said anything about booing him.

2. We didn't really improve our defense.

3. A lot more people were positive on the Barrett trade, mostly because his contract was cheap, especially as compared to Izturis'.

 

Wow, you just reminded me that Izturis makes more than Barrett.

[Warpticon]

Going from Cedeno to Izturis isn't that big a leap.

 

It's a very big leap. How many plays did Cedeno botch up this year? He's got 16 errors in 98 games this year. Izturis is superior to Cedeno at SS. I think Cedeno will fit well at the 2b position. Again lets just let the season play out...

 

Do you think the potential to have made 16 plays is worth 4 million per year?

[Warpticon]

"Defense means very, very, very little in baseball. Pitching and hitting. That's what wins, in that order."

 

C'mon! Without good defense you aren't going to have good pitching. For a pitcher to be good he needs a good defense behind him. What wins in baseball is Pitching, Hitting and Defense. You have to have all three.

 

Pedro Martinez ^ Curt Shilling circa '04 Red Sox say hi.

[Warpticon]

I don't see why the Cubs need to improve their defense, which is one of the 5-10 best in baseball, at the expense of their offense, which is one of the worst in baseball.

 

How did they downgrade their offense by switching from Cedeno to Izturis at short? That one move alone does not downgrade their offense-it actually upgrades it.

 

Izturis essentially replaced Walker in the lineup. The offense got worse while the defense got "better." I put "better" in quotes because Izturis isn't that much better than Cedeno or Perez, if at all.

[Warpticon]

Defense is very important. To think that its not is crazy. Boston in 04 traded a horrible fielder in Nomar. They made it public they wanted to improve their defense. If they didnt acquire Cabrera, they wouldnt of won the world series in my opinion.

 

A team with a 3-4 of Manny and Papi can afford to sacrifice some offense @ SS to improve their defense.

 

But if Defense is not important why would Boston trade for defense? Why not just keep Normar @ SS?

 

It's naive to think the Nomar trade was totally about defense.

 

And baseball teams make moves that don't make sense all the time. Occasionally they don't suffer particularly because of those moves. That doesn't make the moves any more logical or practical.

 

And, baseball7897, not improving their defense would have meant no WS? Okay, feel free to believe that. I'll just remind you that the Sox, with the same core and the worse defense, were a Grady Little meltdown and an Aaron Boone home run from being in the WS in '03. In '04, they were just ONE decent Yankee game from being out in the ALCS. Are you seriously going to tell me that the difference in those two situations was Orlando freaking Cabrera?

Edited August 4, 2006 by Warpticon

[CubColtPacer]

I don't see why the Cubs need to improve their defense, which is one of the 5-10 best in baseball, at the expense of their offense, which is one of the worst in baseball.

 

How did they downgrade their offense by switching from Cedeno to Izturis at short? That one move alone does not downgrade their offense-it actually upgrades it.

 

Izturis essentially replaced Walker in the lineup. The offense got worse while the defense got "better." I put "better" in quotes because Izturis isn't that much better than Cedeno or Perez, if at all.

 

True-but we're looking to 2007. If the Cubs want Walker, they have the same option as they did before-to re-sign him. If not, it is Izturis replacing Cedeno, and whichever player-Cedeno or a free agent-replacing Walker. Sure, the offense got worse for these last 2 months of the season-but we don't really care if the offense gets worse now. Instead, the thought was that we would have Cedeno at short and a free agent at second, now hopefully we will have Izturis at short and a free agent at second. We will have to see.

[Warpticon]

Defense saves runs, saves runners from getting on base, and it also helps the pitcher out.

 

To a much more limited amount than pitching saves runs and offense scores runs.

Defense in baseball is about on the level of special teams in football. It's important, but you'd be crazy to build a team around it.

 

I agree with this statement but I think it raises an interesting point. Football teams do go out and add return men, Dante Hall for the Chiefs and Pacman Jones for the Titans, with the intent to improve the special teams thus improving the team overall. Building off your argument, the Cubs have done exactly this adding Cesar Izturis to a decent defense. The key now will be to go out in the offseason and getting some good offensive players to compliment Izturis' glove. Just like the Chiefs need to improve their defense and the Titans simply need talent on offense and defense to compliment each teams stellar return games.

 

Several reasons this is a poor comparison:

 

a) there are 22 players on the field at any one time.

b) defensive players do not play on offense (and vice versa), thereby rendering any good offense/no defensive player comparisons impossible to make in the NFL. You don't have the same limitations on positions to get ether offense or defense that you do in MLB.

c) special teamers play far, far less than offensive and defensive players over the course of a game.

d) NFL rosters are 53 men. There's a lot more wiggle room for specialists.

e) NFL players can sub in and out on a play to play basis. MLB players cannot.

[Warpticon]

I don't see why the Cubs need to improve their defense, which is one of the 5-10 best in baseball, at the expense of their offense, which is one of the worst in baseball.

 

How did they downgrade their offense by switching from Cedeno to Izturis at short? That one move alone does not downgrade their offense-it actually upgrades it.

 

Izturis essentially replaced Walker in the lineup. The offense got worse while the defense got "better." I put "better" in quotes because Izturis isn't that much better than Cedeno or Perez, if at all.

 

True-but we're looking to 2007. If the Cubs want Walker, they have the same option as they did before-to re-sign him. If not, it is Izturis replacing Cedeno, and whichever player-Cedeno or a free agent-replacing Walker. Sure, the offense got worse for these last 2 months of the season-but we don't really care if the offense gets worse now. Instead, the thought was that we would have Cedeno at short and a free agent at second, now hopefully we will have Izturis at short and a free agent at second. We will have to see.

 

Yes, but Izturis is thus far only marginally better than either Cedeno or Perez, and makes more than them combined. He's a redundant, unnecessary part that has made, at best, a marginal improvement unless he, himself, improves dramatically over what he's done his entire career.

[Brian]

Wow, you just reminded me that Izturis makes more than Barrett.

 

I don't think he does anymore, at the time of the trade Barrett made less than Izturis makes now..