2B in 2007

[Pickle]

"Defense means very, very, very little in baseball. Pitching and hitting."

 

Tell that to the White Sox who won a WS on Pitching and Defense. Their team BA was .262 with a .322 OBP and yet they managed to win a WS.

 

they hit a crapload of homers.

 

True..but they had 200 HR to our 194. They had a .262 AVG with a .322 OPB while we had a .270 AVG with a .324 OBP. So what was the difference between the two teams offensively?

 

The difference must be in the clutch hitting because defense means very, very, very little.

 

Yeah, that or exceptional pitching. I'll go with the pitching myself.

 

You don't think that the defense had anything to do with that?

 

I don't think it had much to do with it, no.

 

How's our good defense working out with our pitching this year?

 

The Cubs have a good defense this year?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

The Cubs have a good defense this year?

 

At the risk of sounding like Brodie Bruce, if you're not going to pay attention to the conversation, don't join in.

[CubColtPacer]

Well, there's the flaw. I don't think our defense has performed that well at all-we probably should be between 15th-20th defensively.

 

Well, if we're judging defense by purely subjective measures, wouldn't you agree that it would be difficult to judge it's effect?

 

I could say that the Cubs have the best defense in MLB. How would you refute that? By saying "Nuh uh?"

 

We need to focus on concrete known issues like our lack of OBP and SLG. Izturis doesn't provide any of these things. That's why it's a bad trade.

 

So basically you just said if you can't measure it, it's not worth anything?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Well, there's the flaw. I don't think our defense has performed that well at all-we probably should be between 15th-20th defensively.

 

Well, if we're judging defense by purely subjective measures, wouldn't you agree that it would be difficult to judge it's effect?

 

I could say that the Cubs have the best defense in MLB. How would you refute that? By saying "Nuh uh?"

 

We need to focus on concrete known issues like our lack of OBP and SLG. Izturis doesn't provide any of these things. That's why it's a bad trade.

 

So basically you just said if you can't measure it, it's not worth anything?

 

Try reading the post again. That's not at all what he said.

[Chocolate Milk]

Well, there's the flaw. I don't think our defense has performed that well at all-we probably should be between 15th-20th defensively.

 

Well, if we're judging defense by purely subjective measures, wouldn't you agree that it would be difficult to judge it's effect?

 

I could say that the Cubs have the best defense in MLB. How would you refute that? By saying "Nuh uh?"

 

We need to focus on concrete known issues like our lack of OBP and SLG. Izturis doesn't provide any of these things. That's why it's a bad trade.

 

So basically you just said if you can't measure it, it's not worth anything?

 

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

 

It's not up to me to prove that defense has no impact, it's up to you to prove that it does. Other than making up some stuff about Izturis saving 40 runs a year, you haven't proven much.

[CubColtPacer]

Well, there's the flaw. I don't think our defense has performed that well at all-we probably should be between 15th-20th defensively.

 

Well, if we're judging defense by purely subjective measures, wouldn't you agree that it would be difficult to judge it's effect?

 

I could say that the Cubs have the best defense in MLB. How would you refute that? By saying "Nuh uh?"

 

We need to focus on concrete known issues like our lack of OBP and SLG. Izturis doesn't provide any of these things. That's why it's a bad trade.

 

So basically you just said if you can't measure it, it's not worth anything?

 

Try reading the post again. That's not at all what he said.

 

He said two things in the post. 1) Defense cannot be measured by objective means-therefore we shouldn't focus on it-and 2) If a player like Izturis does not have a benefit in concrete statistics, he shouldn't be playing-therefore the reason he called it a bad trade. If both of these are true, these concrete issues are the only thing that matters, and things like defense that cannot be measured well should not be focused on because it is not important.

[Pickle]

The Cubs have a good defense this year?

 

At the risk of sounding like Brodie Bruce, if you're not going to pay attention to the conversation, don't join in.

 

Don't worry. You sound NOTHING like Brodie Bruce.

 

And I'd just like to know where this "good defense" is coming from. Ramirez has been pretty good at third. Cedeno is inconsistent. Where's this run-saving defense coming from? Isn't that what the discussion was about? The effect of good defense on pitching? All I wanna know is why you consider the Cubs defense to be good and, therefore, able to save the Cub pitchers tons of runs. I realize, the subject is debatable. But, I've watched MANY Cubs games this year and haven't walked away from any of them thinking that the Cubs had a bunch of defensive studs. You, obviously, see things differently.

[CubColtPacer]

Well, there's the flaw. I don't think our defense has performed that well at all-we probably should be between 15th-20th defensively.

 

Well, if we're judging defense by purely subjective measures, wouldn't you agree that it would be difficult to judge it's effect?

 

I could say that the Cubs have the best defense in MLB. How would you refute that? By saying "Nuh uh?"

 

We need to focus on concrete known issues like our lack of OBP and SLG. Izturis doesn't provide any of these things. That's why it's a bad trade.

 

So basically you just said if you can't measure it, it's not worth anything?

 

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

 

It's not up to me to prove that defense has no impact, it's up to you to prove that it does. Other than making up some stuff about Izturis saving 40 runs a year, you haven't proven much.

 

If I have to prove to you that it matters, then obviously it doesn't to you-which makes my statement correct that you said we shouldn't focus on it because it cannot be measured by objective means. If you feel we shouldn't focus on it, then you must not have much of a value on it, because if it truly was important to you we'd still need to try to measure it in order to win.

[USSoccer]

The Cubs have a good defense this year?

 

At the risk of sounding like Brodie Bruce, if you're not going to pay attention to the conversation, don't join in.

 

Don't worry. You sound NOTHING like Brodie Bruce.

 

And I'd just like to know where this "good defense" is coming from. Ramirez has been pretty good at third. Cedeno is inconsistent. Where's this run-saving defense coming from? Isn't that what the discussion was about? The effect of good defense on pitching? All I wanna know is why you consider the Cubs defense to be good and, therefore, able to save the Cub pitchers tons of runs. I realize, the subject is debatable. But, I've watched MANY Cubs games this year and haven't walked away from any of them thinking that the Cubs had a bunch of defensive studs. You, obviously, see things differently.

 

Given that defensive ability is almost completely subjective, why build a big part of your team around something you can't even quantify?

[C.C.]

The Cubs have a good defense this year?

 

At the risk of sounding like Brodie Bruce, if you're not going to pay attention to the conversation, don't join in.

 

Don't worry. You sound NOTHING like Brodie Bruce.

 

And I'd just like to know where this "good defense" is coming from. Ramirez has been pretty good at third. Cedeno is inconsistent. Where's this run-saving defense coming from? Isn't that what the discussion was about? The effect of good defense on pitching? All I wanna know is why you consider the Cubs defense to be good and, therefore, able to save the Cub pitchers tons of runs. I realize, the subject is debatable. But, I've watched MANY Cubs games this year and haven't walked away from any of them thinking that the Cubs had a bunch of defensive studs. You, obviously, see things differently.

 

I think the main argument is, is Defense important in baseball?

[USSoccer]

The Cubs have a good defense this year?

 

At the risk of sounding like Brodie Bruce, if you're not going to pay attention to the conversation, don't join in.

 

Don't worry. You sound NOTHING like Brodie Bruce.

 

And I'd just like to know where this "good defense" is coming from. Ramirez has been pretty good at third. Cedeno is inconsistent. Where's this run-saving defense coming from? Isn't that what the discussion was about? The effect of good defense on pitching? All I wanna know is why you consider the Cubs defense to be good and, therefore, able to save the Cub pitchers tons of runs. I realize, the subject is debatable. But, I've watched MANY Cubs games this year and haven't walked away from any of them thinking that the Cubs had a bunch of defensive studs. You, obviously, see things differently.

 

I think the main argument is, is Defense important in baseball?

 

It's nowhere near as important as pitching and offense, and it's not predictive enough to try and build a team around.

[C.C.]

The Cubs have a good defense this year?

 

At the risk of sounding like Brodie Bruce, if you're not going to pay attention to the conversation, don't join in.

 

Don't worry. You sound NOTHING like Brodie Bruce.

 

And I'd just like to know where this "good defense" is coming from. Ramirez has been pretty good at third. Cedeno is inconsistent. Where's this run-saving defense coming from? Isn't that what the discussion was about? The effect of good defense on pitching? All I wanna know is why you consider the Cubs defense to be good and, therefore, able to save the Cub pitchers tons of runs. I realize, the subject is debatable. But, I've watched MANY Cubs games this year and haven't walked away from any of them thinking that the Cubs had a bunch of defensive studs. You, obviously, see things differently.

 

Given that defensive ability is almost completely subjective, why build a big part of your team around something you can't even quantify?

 

Because if you want to win you have to. Ask any pitcher if they think Defense is important...

[RationalSoxFan]

For the record, the White Sox won the WS because they had four pitchers who performed well above their career averages. Their hitters sucked, but hit 200 homers.

 

My opinion of their defense...

Crede-Very good range, probably top 5 if not top 3

Uribe- Sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks sucks i hate him sucks

Iguchi- Above average

Konerko- Average, but he used to be well below

Pods- Sucks

Anderson- Very, very good

Dye- meh, average

 

Oh, and Rowand was very slow footed and got bad breaks, but he did make the occasional Jim Edmonds.

[RationalSoxFan]

The Cubs have a good defense this year?

 

At the risk of sounding like Brodie Bruce, if you're not going to pay attention to the conversation, don't join in.

 

Don't worry. You sound NOTHING like Brodie Bruce.

 

And I'd just like to know where this "good defense" is coming from. Ramirez has been pretty good at third. Cedeno is inconsistent. Where's this run-saving defense coming from? Isn't that what the discussion was about? The effect of good defense on pitching? All I wanna know is why you consider the Cubs defense to be good and, therefore, able to save the Cub pitchers tons of runs. I realize, the subject is debatable. But, I've watched MANY Cubs games this year and haven't walked away from any of them thinking that the Cubs had a bunch of defensive studs. You, obviously, see things differently.

 

Given that defensive ability is almost completely subjective, why build a big part of your team around something you can't even quantify?

 

Because if you want to win you have to. Ask any pitcher if they think Defense is important...

Defense only matters over the course of 162 games if it is extremely above or below average. It all balances out.

[cheapseats]

 

And I'd just like to know where this "good defense" is coming from. Ramirez has been pretty good at third. Cedeno is inconsistent. Where's this run-saving defense coming from?

 

The Cubs are tied for the 4th best team defense in baseball this year:

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=11582

 

It's sometimes hard to measure a single player's defensive contribution, but it's not hard to measure a team's defensive performance. The Cubs have been one of the best defensive teams this year.

[USSoccer]

The Cubs have a good defense this year?

 

At the risk of sounding like Brodie Bruce, if you're not going to pay attention to the conversation, don't join in.

 

Don't worry. You sound NOTHING like Brodie Bruce.

 

And I'd just like to know where this "good defense" is coming from. Ramirez has been pretty good at third. Cedeno is inconsistent. Where's this run-saving defense coming from? Isn't that what the discussion was about? The effect of good defense on pitching? All I wanna know is why you consider the Cubs defense to be good and, therefore, able to save the Cub pitchers tons of runs. I realize, the subject is debatable. But, I've watched MANY Cubs games this year and haven't walked away from any of them thinking that the Cubs had a bunch of defensive studs. You, obviously, see things differently.

 

Given that defensive ability is almost completely subjective, why build a big part of your team around something you can't even quantify?

 

Because if you want to win you have to. Ask any pitcher if they think Defense is important...

 

Oh my god. Just to sum up:

 

-You can't measure it.

-It's not predictive

-It's less important than pitching and offense...

 

But you have to have it to win. Okay. The 2004 Red Sox did not win because they were good defensively. They had 3 absolute butchers, 3 guys who were below average and 2 guys who were good defenders. The 2005 White Sox won because they hit 200 HR's and they had at least 4 starters and 3 bullpen guys have career years AND played in a weak division. The 2003 Marlins won because they got on base and had really good pitching that got hot at the right time and got a couple breaks against the Cubs, and beat an absolutely worn down Yankees team. The 2002 Diamondbacks won a crap division because they had 2 of the best pitchers of a generation on their team, and no one could hit them.

 

Should I go on? You're completely wrong. You cannot, CANNOT rely on something unpredictable when you're building a baseball team. That's like me playing the lottery as a career and hoping that the Lotto, and not my job, will pay my mortgage.

[baseball7897]

Defense is very important. To think that its not is crazy. Boston in 04 traded a horrible fielder in Nomar. They made it public they wanted to improve their defense. If they didnt acquire Cabrera, they wouldnt of won the world series in my opinion.

[RationalSoxFan]

Defense is very important. To think that its not is crazy. Boston in 04 traded a horrible fielder in Nomar. They made it public they wanted to improve their defense. If they didnt acquire Cabrera, they wouldnt of won the world series in my opinion.

That's the same idea that without Lee instead of Podsednik, the Sox would have still been mediocre. Two completely mediocre moves that coincided with World Championships.

[WindyCity]

Defense is very important. To think that its not is crazy. Boston in 04 traded a horrible fielder in Nomar. They made it public they wanted to improve their defense. If they didnt acquire Cabrera, they wouldnt of won the world series in my opinion.

 

A team with a 3-4 of Manny and Papi can afford to sacrifice some offense @ SS to improve their defense.

[C.C.]

Defense is very important. To think that its not is crazy. Boston in 04 traded a horrible fielder in Nomar. They made it public they wanted to improve their defense. If they didnt acquire Cabrera, they wouldnt of won the world series in my opinion.

 

A team with a 3-4 of Manny and Papi can afford to sacrifice some offense @ SS to improve their defense.

 

But if Defense is not important why would Boston trade for defense? Why not just keep Normar @ SS?

[baseball7897]

This is off the subject, but I wish the Cubs would of traded for Orlando Cabrera instead of Nomar. Would you want a guy who plays everyday? Or a guy who plays everyother day? Im not second guessing the Nomar deal either. Orlando was the guy I wanted to play SS for the Cubs.

[UK1679666180]

Defense is very important. To think that its not is crazy. Boston in 04 traded a horrible fielder in Nomar. They made it public they wanted to improve their defense. If they didnt acquire Cabrera, they wouldnt of won the world series in my opinion.

 

A team with a 3-4 of Manny and Papi can afford to sacrifice some offense @ SS to improve their defense.

 

But if Defense is not important why would Boston trade for defense? Why not just keep Normar @ SS?

 

Different needs, defense matters to teams that lacks it and the potential offense Nomar could bring, matters more to a team looking to score runs.

 

It all depends on how someone defines a bigger weakness. If you have a player that is more defense oriented, you have to surround him with players likely to score more runs to compensate.

 

Do the Cubs have that system in place to where it can be tweaked heading into the offseason?

[baseball7897]

Im pretty sure Hendry is not going to have a Izturis/Cedeno middle infield next year. He will go out and get a player like Tejeda to play SS. Tejeda/Izturis is a middle infield he would like.

[HoopsCubs]

Im pretty sure Hendry is not going to have a Izturis/Cedeno middle infield next year. He will go out and get a player like Tejeda to play SS. Tejeda/Izturis is a middle infield he would like.

 

Possibly. Depending on Washington's and Minnesota's 2007 payroll situations though, I don't think we can rule out Hendry making possible trades for Jose Vidro or Luis Castillo. Hendry has liked Vidro in the past, and if he is available you know Derrek and Juan will actively campaign for Castillo.

[baseball7897]

Im pretty sure Hendry is not going to have a Izturis/Cedeno middle infield next year. He will go out and get a player like Tejeda to play SS. Tejeda/Izturis is a middle infield he would like.

 

Possibly. Depending on Washington's and Minnesota's 2007 payroll situations though, I don't think we can rule out Hendry making possible trades for Jose Vidro or Luis Castillo. Hendry has liked Vidro in the past, and if he is available you know Derrek and Juan will actively campaign for Castillo.

 

NOT Castillo. He is getitng older, and speed is a major part of his game. You cannot count on Vidro to play a whole season. He is never healthy. Tejeda is the guy. A Package of Prior, Pie, Cedeno and another arm should get Tejeda.