Maddux and $$$ to the Dodgers for Cesar Izturis

[goonys evil twin]

You're talking like he's the equivalent of Rusch at this point.

 

Rusch has a career ERA of 4.88, not much worse than what Maddux has done this year. But team's have done stupid things for name pitchers (like the contract Hendry gave Maddux) If somebody think he's got 6 more really good starts in him, they might bite. But the fact is Maddux isn't that good, the hope is just that no better pitchers are available.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

He is a rental that chews innings. This is fairly desirable for many teams.

 

 

a team in contention doesn't need inning eaters. that's about the lamest attribute a guy can bring any team, actually.

 

They do if they have a weak bullpen.

 

that's gonna have to be a really weak bullpen if you'd rather throw a guy with a 4.70 era out there for an extra inning instead of going to the pen.

 

i've just never understood the fascination with inning eaters. can't anyone be an inning eater if quality is irrelevant?

 

I recall some on this very board several months ago calling for a signing of Jeff Weaver because he was an innings eater. For the most part, I agree with you that it's a worthless quality by itself. However, Maddux's 4.70 ERA and the hopes that his wisdom will rub off on younger pitchers looks attractive to teams with guys in the bullpen sitting around that same 4.70 who are 25 and have only a year or so of time in the bigs.

[Chocolate Milk]

Gimme those sweet sweet prospects.

[abuck1220]

He is a rental that chews innings. This is fairly desirable for many teams.

 

 

a team in contention doesn't need inning eaters. that's about the lamest attribute a guy can bring any team, actually.

 

They do if they have a weak bullpen.

 

that's gonna have to be a really weak bullpen if you'd rather throw a guy with a 4.70 era out there for an extra inning instead of going to the pen.

 

i've just never understood the fascination with inning eaters. can't anyone be an inning eater if quality is irrelevant?

 

I recall some on this very board several months ago calling for a signing of Jeff Weaver because he was an innings eater. For the most part, I agree with you that it's a worthless quality by itself. However, Maddux's 4.70 ERA and the hopes that his wisdom will rub off on younger pitchers looks attractive to teams with guys in the bullpen sitting around that same 4.70 who are 25 and have only a year or so of time in the bigs.

 

i'm not saying he doesn't have value, but if kemp/guzman were to be traded, they would be the biggest prospects moved so far. and you'd think that if those guys were available, the dodgers could do better than maddux.

 

i thought weaver would be a good sign for the brewers prior to the season b/c he was good last year, not b/c he ate innings.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

i'm not saying he doesn't have value, but if kemp/guzman were to be traded, they would be the biggest prospects moved so far. and you'd think that if those guys were available, the dodgers could do better than maddux.

 

I don't want to see them do better. I think Coletti overvalues Maddux, and I hope he makes us happy because of it.

[RynoRules]

i'm not saying he doesn't have value, but if kemp/guzman were to be traded, they would be the biggest prospects moved so far. and you'd think that if those guys were available, the dodgers could do better than maddux.

 

I don't want to see them do better. I think Coletti overvalues Maddux, and I hope he makes us happy because of it.

 

Agreed. Let Coletti do the thinking with his heart instead of that lump three feet above his you-know-what.

[Laura]

Maddux has a 14.9 VORP. That would make him a #3 starter for the Dodgers.

He'd be a #4 for the Padres.

 

His groundball to flyball ratio is #11 in all of MLB. That would probably be more helpful to the Padres than the Dodgers, as PETCO's park factor shows that it keeps a lot of flyballs from becoming homeruns, and SD's defensive efficiency is #2 in the league.

 

He would help both teams - LA needs pitching more than San Diego, but Maddux's game is tailor made for the Padres.

 

I'm quoting this because I've noticed that sometimes that if the last post on a page is the first unread one, the thread will still open to the first unread post on the following page (if that makes sense).

 

If a team can run out and pick up Oswalt or Schmidt (or Zito) for the stretch run, they do just that. Maybe the Dodgers will decide to start flinging top prospects around at the last minute (though the Astros may want 'name players' and ... who knows with the Giants, who are still being occasionally mentioned as a long-shot contender for Maddux despite supposedly shopping Schmidt).

 

Neither team may be willing or able to pay the price for the top-tier available pitchers and adding Maddux starts making a lot more sense in that context, especially if the Cubs foot the salary.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

If the Cubs are trading Aramis, they might as well sweeten the pot for the Dodgers and add one of Howry/Eyre/Dempster to Maddux to get LaRoche/Kemp-type prospects.

[Laura]

SI.com[/url]"]

The final three teams in the running for Greg Maddux are the Dodgers, Padres and the Braves. Yes, his old team has interest. Two caveats: 1) the Braves are barely in the race and may be less anxious today than they were a week ago; and 2) the directionless Cubs, who are asking for a steep price -- a young big-leaguer and decent prospect for the Cooperstown-bound pitcher who's 8-11 with a 4.83 ERA -- say they may keep him. (Keeping him makes no sense, but that's the Cubbies for you.)

 

C'mon, Hendry!

 

Of course, there was some indication last week that Maddux wasn't eager to return to the Braves.

 

Hendry wants booty!!!

I'll be suprised if he gets much booty. He manages his calories about as effectively as he does the Cubs.

 

hee

[CUBZ99]

SI.com[/url]"]

The final three teams in the running for Greg Maddux are the Dodgers, Padres and the Braves. Yes, his old team has interest. Two caveats: 1) the Braves are barely in the race and may be less anxious today than they were a week ago; and 2) the directionless Cubs, who are asking for a steep price -- a young big-leaguer and decent prospect for the Cooperstown-bound pitcher who's 8-11 with a 4.83 ERA -- say they may keep him. (Keeping him makes no sense, but that's the Cubbies for you.)

 

C'mon, Hendry!

 

Of course, there was some indication last week that Maddux wasn't eager to return to the Braves.

 

Hendry wants booty!!!

I'll be suprised if he gets much booty. He manages his calories about as effectively as he does the Cubs.

 

hee

 

I think we can safely assume that the "Cubs are willing to keep him" is a line of garbage designed to drive the price up. For once, Hendry is doing the right thing from a PR standpoint and holding on to Maddux until he is certain he recieved the best offer.

[Mizzou]

SI.com[/url]"]

The final three teams in the running for Greg Maddux are the Dodgers, Padres and the Braves. Yes, his old team has interest. Two caveats: 1) the Braves are barely in the race and may be less anxious today than they were a week ago; and 2) the directionless Cubs, who are asking for a steep price -- a young big-leaguer and decent prospect for the Cooperstown-bound pitcher who's 8-11 with a 4.83 ERA -- say they may keep him. (Keeping him makes no sense, but that's the Cubbies for you.)

 

C'mon, Hendry!

 

Of course, there was some indication last week that Maddux wasn't eager to return to the Braves.

 

Hendry wants booty!!!

I'll be suprised if he gets much booty. He manages his calories about as effectively as he does the Cubs.

 

hee

 

I think we can safely assume that the "Cubs are willing to keep him" is a line of garbage designed to drive the price up. For once, Hendry is doing the right thing from a PR standpoint and holding on to Maddux until he is certain he recieved the best offer.

I definitely agree. Greg's motion to the crowd after he left the game on Saturday told me that he had told Hendry to go ahead and trade him.

[rawaction]

If the Cubs are trading Aramis, they might as well sweeten the pot for the Dodgers and add one of Howry/Eyre/Dempster to Maddux to get LaRoche/Kemp-type prospects.

 

I'd actually rather get prospects from 2 different teams than one. If the Cubs can get Santana and Aybar from LAA, and 2 prospects for Maddux, that's probably more than they'd get from a deal with LAD. I don't see them giving up a ML'er as good as Santana and 3 good minor leaguers.

[JeffH]

I think we can safely assume that the "Cubs are willing to keep him" is a line of garbage designed to drive the price up. For once, Hendry is doing the right thing from a PR standpoint and holding on to Maddux until he is certain he recieved the best offer.

 

Oh, ye of way yonder too much faith...

[cubfan1955]

Just out of curiosity...how much of a prospect was Smoltz when the Tigers traded him for Doyle Alexander? Right now, at this point in his career, I see Maddux as a lot worse pitcher than Alexander was.

[Caryatid]

Maddux just plain sucks now. We shouldn't expect a big return for him unless some GM is stupid or desperate.

 

If this is true (although his last two starts belie this), then there's no reason to trade him for a minimal prospect. What he brings to the team in terms of the clubhouse is not really worth a minimal prospect. If its a A or B prospect, however...

What does Maddux bring to the clubhouse? 3 years of his veteran poise certainly hasn't produced the predicted mentoring effect on the other pitchers and if he stays he'll take away starts from rookies. And he sucks. At this point Maddux has NOTHING to offer the Cubs.

 

You can't quantify this statement whatsoever. You can't say what he has or has not brought to the other pitchers, or what they'd be if he weren't there. There is no evidence to do so, other than the words of those pitchers who universally agree that he has had a positive effect upon them. As such, you can't say he has nothing to offer the Cubs.

 

That said, let me make something clear: I am not against trading Maddux for a REAL prospect. I am against trading him for some roster-filler at AAA or AA, because its a pointless act that removes someone with debatable skills for the major league club and replaces him with someone who will never bring skills to the major league club.

 

BTW-I would actually prefer that he take away starts from someone like Marshall right now, because I'd rather not see him ruined by Baker-if Maddux staying allows for the young players to get experience, but not arm-ruination, I'm happy with that.

[abuck1220]

What he brings to the team in terms of the clubhouse is not really worth a minimal prospect.

 

 

You can't quantify this statement whatsoever. You can't say what he has or has not brought to the other pitchers

 

confused.

[Caryatid]

What he brings to the team in terms of the clubhouse is not really worth a minimal prospect.

 

 

You can't quantify this statement whatsoever. You can't say what he has or has not brought to the other pitchers

 

confused.

 

Simple: if causation cannot be quantified by statistics (and they are not in this case), you must accept the word of those who are affected by his presence. They are as close as you can get to primary information. It doesn't change my argument in the least.

[maandig]

I suppose that in several decades of watching baseball, I still just do not understand the sport, but I cannot fathom why there is such enthusiasm for shipping Maddux out. I realize that the only thing that matters is statistics and future potential, but I cannot let go of the belief that Maddux has been appropriately lauded for his effect on Sean Marshall's development. After years of watching pitchers like Wood, Prior, and even Z, lose focus on the mound and turn what could have been spectacular starts into horrific outings, it had been a comparable joy to watch Sean go out to the mound, with much less talent, and concentrate on getting batters out. Maybe he will never be dominant, but Marshall looks like a good candidate to develop into a solid middle of the rotation starter for this or some other team. This may (or may not) be causally connected to his eager willingness to learn from Maddux.

 

In any event, I am likely misguided in a large number of ways because I also do not understand how Maddux "sucks." 10 of his 22 starts have been quality starts. He has walked more than two batters in only one of those 22 starts. His WHIP puts him on par with Aaron Harang, Brad Penny, Kenny Rogers, Chris Capuano, Jake Peavy, Scott Kazmir, and Erik Bedard. His start against the Dodgers on April 17th is, with all due respect to Z's great games, the best start that I've seen any Cubs pitcher put together this year.

 

With the same caveat as everyone else (if the Cubs are blown away by an offer, see ya), I, for one, would prefer to see Maddux in a Cubs uniform until he decides he doesn't want to wear one anymore.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I suppose that in several decades of watching baseball, I still just do not understand the sport, but I cannot fathom why there is such enthusiasm for shipping Maddux out. I realize that the only thing that matters is statistics and future potential, but I cannot let go of the belief that Maddux has been appropriately lauded for his effect on Sean Marshall's development. After years of watching pitchers like Wood, Prior, and even Z, lose focus on the mound and turn what could have been spectacular starts into horrific outings, it had been a comparable joy to watch Sean go out to the mound, with much less talent, and concentrate on getting batters out. Maybe he will never be dominant, but Marshall looks like a good candidate to develop into a solid middle of the rotation starter for this or some other team. This may (or may not) be causally connected to his eager willingness to learn from Maddux.

 

In any event, I am likely misguided in a large number of ways because I also do not understand how Maddux "sucks." 10 of his 22 starts have been quality starts. He has walked more than two batters in only one of those 22 starts. His WHIP puts him on par with Aaron Harang, Brad Penny, Kenny Rogers, Chris Capuano, Jake Peavy, Scott Kazmir, and Erik Bedard. His start against the Dodgers on April 17th is, with all due respect to Z's great games, the best start that I've seen any Cubs pitcher put together this year.

 

With the same caveat as everyone else (if the Cubs are blown away by an offer, see ya), I, for one, would prefer to see Maddux in a Cubs uniform until he decides he doesn't want to wear one anymore.

 

1) your avatar scared the living crap out of me

2) Nobody is discounting Maddux possibly having a positive effect on our young pitchers, but the season is basically over. He's overpaid for his production and declining. We have a perfect opportunity to get something of value for him instead of just letting him walk. We'd have to offer arby to get draft picks for him, and I'm not sure that's a risk you want to take. Sentiment will get you 0 wins in 2007.

[frostwyrm]

He is a rental that chews innings. This is fairly desirable for many teams.

 

 

a team in contention doesn't need inning eaters. that's about the lamest attribute a guy can bring any team, actually.

Agreed, if a contender needs to eat up innings late in the season at a 5+ ERA pace then they can call up some rookies to do the job. After the rosters expand it gets even easier.

[RynoRules]

I suppose that in several decades of watching baseball, I still just do not understand the sport, but I cannot fathom why there is such enthusiasm for shipping Maddux out. I realize that the only thing that matters is statistics and future potential, but I cannot let go of the belief that Maddux has been appropriately lauded for his effect on Sean Marshall's development. After years of watching pitchers like Wood, Prior, and even Z, lose focus on the mound and turn what could have been spectacular starts into horrific outings, it had been a comparable joy to watch Sean go out to the mound, with much less talent, and concentrate on getting batters out. Maybe he will never be dominant, but Marshall looks like a good candidate to develop into a solid middle of the rotation starter for this or some other team. This may (or may not) be causally connected to his eager willingness to learn from Maddux.

 

In any event, I am likely misguided in a large number of ways because I also do not understand how Maddux "sucks." 10 of his 22 starts have been quality starts. He has walked more than two batters in only one of those 22 starts. His WHIP puts him on par with Aaron Harang, Brad Penny, Kenny Rogers, Chris Capuano, Jake Peavy, Scott Kazmir, and Erik Bedard. His start against the Dodgers on April 17th is, with all due respect to Z's great games, the best start that I've seen any Cubs pitcher put together this year.

 

With the same caveat as everyone else (if the Cubs are blown away by an offer, see ya), I, for one, would prefer to see Maddux in a Cubs uniform until he decides he doesn't want to wear one anymore.

 

1) your avatar scared the living crap out of me

2) Nobody is discounting Maddux possibly having a positive effect on our young pitchers, but the season is basically over. He's overpaid for his production and declining. We have a perfect opportunity to get something of value for him instead of just letting him walk. We'd have to offer arby to get draft picks for him, and I'm not sure that's a risk you want to take. Sentiment will get you 0 wins in 2007.

 

I thought we had seen the last of him. At least he's wearing the colors of a now defunct team.

[Outshined_One]

Here's my take on Maddux:

 

1) Considering that it's almost August 1st and we're more than halfway through the season, I'd have to believe Maddux has taught guys like Marmol, Marshall, Guzman, and Ryu a fair amount by now. Maybe he hasn't taught them everything he knows, but he's likely taught them enough to last them a lifetime during these past months. With only two months left to go in the season, how much more can Maddux really teach these guys?

 

2) While I appreciate the job Maddux has done with these younger pitchers...it should fall on the pitching coach to be the main source of help and coaching for these guys. You hear them all talk about how helpful Maddux has been, but how often do you hear them talk the world of Larry Rothschild? Shouldn't Larry be the one teaching these guys more than Maddux? Doesn't that just speak really poorly for Larry, or am I missing something?

 

3) The Cubs are incredibly far out of contention. There's no bleeping way they're going to make the playoffs this year, much less get to .500. From here on out, the only reason veterans will get playing time over promising rookies is for the coaching staff to pad its resume. Unfortunately for guys like Hill, Ryu, and Guzman, Maddux is taking up a spot in the rotation that could be valuable for their development time. While Maddux's coaching can definitely help them, the best way for them to learn is through experience.

 

4) If it's true that teams like the Padres, Giants, and Dodgers are after Maddux and are willing to fork over a good prospect or two for him, why not trade him? This organization lacks position prospects who could seriously vie for a starting spot out of spring training next season. Pie's got a bright future, but he needs more time in AAA to work on his plate discipline and base stealing. Theriot, Fontenot, Hoffpauir, and McGehee could all end up being good bench guys, but they are nowhere near the level of guys like LaRoche, Kemp, and Kottaras. We all know how much help this offense needs, so why not address it?

 

5) Along that same vein, one of the daunting problems coming into this offseason will be the acquisition of a starter. The Cubs need a reliable and competent guy in the #2 slot. Wood might come back at a reduced price, but can he be trusted? Maddux might come back again, but can he put up the numbers the Cubs need? Will guys like Guzman and Marshall be able to remain healthy despite their injury histories? Will Marmol and Hill be able to gain better control and command? Maddux (and/or Ramirez) could potentially fetch that from another team.

 

He's done a terrific job with the Cubs and I'd love to see him return as a pitching coach after his playing days are over. But right now, he's most valuable to the Cubs as a trading chip for a team looking to overpay for a starting pitcher.

[goonys evil twin]

I suppose that in several decades of watching baseball, I still just do not understand the sport, but I cannot fathom why there is such enthusiasm for shipping Maddux out. I realize that the only thing that matters is statistics and future potential, but I cannot let go of the belief that Maddux has been appropriately lauded for his effect on Sean Marshall's development.

.....................

 

With the same caveat as everyone else (if the Cubs are blown away by an offer, see ya), I, for one, would prefer to see Maddux in a Cubs uniform until he decides he doesn't want to wear one anymore.

 

Where was he with all the other young pitchers the past 3 years? I think it's more myth than anything else that Maddux has coached any of these guys into being better pitchers than they'd be without him. Marshall is simply developing along the lines that he was in the past. He's not lighting the world on fire. He's not doing anything special. He's been pretty much mediocre for the season, with a couple nice starts, a few bad ones and a bunch of ho-hum starts. I can't see any justification for claiming Maddux's influence has made him better than he would have been, because if Marshall was significantly worse he'd be pathetic.

 

Maddux had a great April. But he's sucked ever since. Quality starts is a crap stat that doesn't mean a thing. 6 IP and 3 ER is not good. Maddux has far too many disaster starts this year, when he doesn't give his team a chance to win, and he's done that too much since rejoining the team. He's not a good pitcher anymore. And to top it off he's way overpaid. He's a horrible value at this point because you are paying for the name, and what he did in Atlanta, more than what he is capable of doing for this team. Maddux on the 2007 Cubs would be horrible.

 

People have to get over their emotional attachment to the guy, because his past ties to the team and success in Atlanta is not relevant to the future. What matters is winning and Greg just doesn't help this team do that very much, and he just looks to keep getting worse. It's time to get past the thought that Greg Maddux is still good, because he's not.

[minnesotacubsfan]

1) your avatar scared the living crap out of me

quote]

 

 

lol...your such a weakling.......

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Here's my take on Maddux:

 

1) Considering that it's almost August 1st and we're more than halfway through the season, I'd have to believe Maddux has taught guys like Marmol, Marshall, Guzman, and Ryu a fair amount by now. Maybe he hasn't taught them everything he knows, but he's likely taught them enough to last them a lifetime during these past months. With only two months left to go in the season, how much more can Maddux really teach these guys?

 

2) While I appreciate the job Maddux has done with these younger pitchers...it should fall on the pitching coach to be the main source of help and coaching for these guys. You hear them all talk about how helpful Maddux has been, but how often do you hear them talk the world of Larry Rothschild? Shouldn't Larry be the one teaching these guys more than Maddux? Doesn't that just speak really poorly for Larry, or am I missing something?

 

3) The Cubs are incredibly far out of contention. There's no bleeping way they're going to make the playoffs this year, much less get to .500. From here on out, the only reason veterans will get playing time over promising rookies is for the coaching staff to pad its resume. Unfortunately for guys like Hill, Ryu, and Guzman, Maddux is taking up a spot in the rotation that could be valuable for their development time. While Maddux's coaching can definitely help them, the best way for them to learn is through experience.

 

4) If it's true that teams like the Padres, Giants, and Dodgers are after Maddux and are willing to fork over a good prospect or two for him, why not trade him? This organization lacks position prospects who could seriously vie for a starting spot out of spring training next season. Pie's got a bright future, but he needs more time in AAA to work on his plate discipline and base stealing. Theriot, Fontenot, Hoffpauir, and McGehee could all end up being good bench guys, but they are nowhere near the level of guys like LaRoche, Kemp, and Kottaras. We all know how much help this offense needs, so why not address it?

 

5) Along that same vein, one of the daunting problems coming into this offseason will be the acquisition of a starter. The Cubs need a reliable and competent guy in the #2 slot. Wood might come back at a reduced price, but can he be trusted? Maddux might come back again, but can he put up the numbers the Cubs need? Will guys like Guzman and Marshall be able to remain healthy despite their injury histories? Will Marmol and Hill be able to gain better control and command? Maddux (and/or Ramirez) could potentially fetch that from another team.

 

He's done a terrific job with the Cubs and I'd love to see him return as a pitching coach after his playing days are over. But right now, he's most valuable to the Cubs as a trading chip for a team looking to overpay for a starting pitcher.

 

Excellent post. I agree with every word.