Is Sosa one of the top 5 Cubs ever?

[Sammy Sofa]

Santo was never caught corking.

 

Ron wins.

Cork doesn't help you hit the ball any farther and may actually be a hindrance to home run hitters. It's effect is entirely psychological.

 

Ron was outstanding, but Sammy was better.

 

I'm not arguing whether or not the stuff works...we all know it has an extremely negative connotation in MLB, and is pretty much one of the worst things you can do on the field. If it doesn't actually help, it just makes Sammy look even stupider for getting caught with it.

 

I'm a young guy, Sammy is responsible for some of the greatest moments I've seen as a Cubs fan and probably will ever see...but the overall package of "Sammy Sosa, ballplayer" weighs him down below guys like Santo.

 

What about the intense humanitarian work he did following the hurricane in the Caribbean (I think it might have been "Mitch)? He was recognized by the president at the State of the Union address. That's pretty impressive off-the-field behavior.

 

He did one thing wrong and it was overhyped in order to run him out of town.

 

I didn't begrudge his off the field behavior and actions, nor did I applaud his being run out of town. I simply am not impressed with the corking, the ego, the early departure and the stink about the batting rotation. Add onto that the excellent stat analysis provided by others here and I think that Santo ultimately belongs in the top 5 more than Sammy. Yes, I fully realize that a lot of the negative stuff was blown out of proportion...but they all happened, and it tarnishes him, in my opinion, as a player. Like I said, I think he is one of the top 10 greatest Cubs of all time...just not in the top 5.

[Roast]

Are you kidding me CUBS? Sosa, by the numbers, undoubtedly the BEST offensive player in Chicago Cubs history. If that doesnt earn him a spot as one of the top five then i dont know what will.

[jjgman21]

I would definately include Sammy Sosa as well. Excluding him is ludicrous. I would also consider adding Cap Anson for either Billy Williams or Ron Santo.

 

I accept that people feel this way, but I'd like to see someone provide better empirical evidence that Sammy is better than people like Billy Williams or Santo.

 

Similar career OPS+ to Santo, with a better prime.

 

see my post on the previous page. Sosa's peak wan NOT all that much better, and considering how close they are in OPS+, you can't say Sammy was better, then argue in a different thread that OBP is more important than SLG. Santo's far superior OBP more than makes up for that slight difference in OPS.

 

It was a half-hearted attempt to be sure, I don't feel that strongly about it, just tried to give an answer for others to possibly work from. I think something has to be said that Sosa has the best two seasons of the pair, and his best season blows away anything Santo did in his career.

 

Sosa's best 5 seasons (OPS+): 201, 169, 160, 160, 141

Santo's best 5 seasons: 164, 161, 153, 146, 138

 

I was just pointing out that many others had made that same point, but that argument doesn't hold as much water as most thought when looking at the stats (to be honest, neither does Santo was better over more years for that matter). both completely dominated the league for a 4-5 year stretch. Sammy had five years ranked top 10 in NL OPS+, Santo had 4 such years. their peaks were similar, with the exception of the one monster year for Sosa, but so were their careers as the both had about 5 years of 110-135 OPS.

 

and even if truffles point about the value of Santo's production at third is more important goes out the window, and my point about OBP goes out the window, and many's point about character goes out the window, I don't see how 4 OPS+ points over a career outweighs 5 Gold Gloves.

[jjgman21]

Are you kidding me CUBS? Sosa, by the numbers, undoubtedly the BEST offensive player in Chicago Cubs history. If that doesnt earn him a spot as one of the top five then i dont know what will.

 

which numbers are you talking about?

[SouthSideRyan]

For quick reference here's the all-time hitting and pitching leaders for the Cubs.

 

I was in the Santo over Sosa camp until looking that over and realizing how much Sosa was damaged by his non-Cub years. I think I'd give Sosa the edge over Santo now. That said, I'm still not sure he's in the top 5. Brown appears to me to be the best Cub of all time, so of course he was left off. I've always had a soft spot for Gabby Hartnett, so I think I'd put him in over Sosa. Banks's half career at SS is enough for me to put him over Sosa. That leaves Anson, Sosa, Williams, Jenkins, Alexander, and Sandberg for the last 2 spots. (Chance gets some bonus points for the world series, but not enough to overcome his small # of ABs, and his not up to snuff #s.)

 

Williams and Sosa are real close on offensive #s, Sosa has the slight edge in OPS+, but his is SLG heavy, so that pretty much makes up the difference. Williams's extra ABs gives him the slight edge. To the best of my knowledge, I don't believe Williams was any worse than Sosa in the field.

 

Anson's OBP is pretty sick when compared to the league OBP, yet somehow I was still underwhelmed. I'm inclined to give Sosa the slight edge against him. Additionally, I discounted guys like Clarkson and Pfeister for pitching in the 1800s where they only played about 5 seasons for the Cubs, so it seems unfair to include Anson's time from the same era.

 

Jenkins amassed a lot of time elsewhere, but is still the all time leader in GS for the Cubs and is 3rd all time in Innings. That said, looking back over his #s, he doesn't belong anywhere in a top 5 discussion, and probably isn't even a top 10 Cub.

 

Alexander didn't have a lot of seasons with the Cubs, but when he was around, he was pretty phenomenal. I put him a notch above Vaughn for Cubs pitchers and probably a notch below Sosa if just because he didn't have the longevity as a Cub that Sosa did.

 

Which leaves Sandberg, which is difficult for me to look at objectively, as he's my favorite player of all time. Sandberg's got a ~1500 AB edge in longevity and a huge edge in defense. Sosa has the slight edge in OBP and a huge edge in SLG. Both were good base stealers in their younger years, but lost some speed as they got older. Sandberg remained a good baserunner, while Sammy was likely down to below average towards the end. Ryno had the fundamentals, but Sosa's #s are just too much to ignore, even with Sandberg's great defense. I grudingly give it to Sosa.

 

My rough sketch of a top 10:

 

Brown

Hartnett

Banks

Williams

Sosa

Santo

Sandberg

Anson

Alexander

Hack?

 

I'm not sure on Hack, I'd have to take a long look at a lot of other guys, but on a quick skim, he's who I'd put there, with maybe Vaughn challenging him for the spot.

[jjgman21]

For quick reference here's the all-time hitting and pitching leaders for the Cubs.

 

I was in the Santo over Sosa camp until looking that over and realizing how much Sosa was damaged by his non-Cub years. I think I'd give Sosa the edge over Santo now. That said, I'm still not sure he's in the top 5. Brown appears to me to be the best Cub of all time, so of course he was left off. I've always had a soft spot for Gabby Hartnett, so I think I'd put him in over Sosa. Banks's half career at SS is enough for me to put him over Sosa. That leaves Anson, Sosa, Williams, Jenkins, Alexander, and Sandberg for the last 2 spots. (Chance gets some bonus points for the world series, but not enough to overcome his small # of ABs, and his not up to snuff #s.)

 

Williams and Sosa are real close on offensive #s, Sosa has the slight edge in OPS+, but his is SLG heavy, so that pretty much makes up the difference. Williams's extra ABs gives him the slight edge. To the best of my knowledge, I don't believe Williams was any worse than Sosa in the field.

 

Anson's OBP is pretty sick when compared to the league OBP, yet somehow I was still underwhelmed. I'm inclined to give Sosa the slight edge against him. Additionally, I discounted guys like Clarkson and Pfeister for pitching in the 1800s where they only played about 5 seasons for the Cubs, so it seems unfair to include Anson's time from the same era.

 

Jenkins amassed a lot of time elsewhere, but is still the all time leader in GS for the Cubs and is 3rd all time in Innings. That said, looking back over his #s, he doesn't belong anywhere in a top 5 discussion, and probably isn't even a top 10 Cub.

 

Alexander didn't have a lot of seasons with the Cubs, but when he was around, he was pretty phenomenal. I put him a notch above Vaughn for Cubs pitchers and probably a notch below Sosa if just because he didn't have the longevity as a Cub that Sosa did.

 

Which leaves Sandberg, which is difficult for me to look at objectively, as he's my favorite player of all time. Sandberg's got a ~1500 AB edge in longevity and a huge edge in defense. Sosa has the slight edge in OBP and a huge edge in SLG. Both were good base stealers in their younger years, but lost some speed as they got older. Sandberg remained a good baserunner, while Sammy was likely down to below average towards the end. Ryno had the fundamentals, but Sosa's #s are just too much to ignore, even with Sandberg's great defense. I grudingly give it to Sosa.

 

My rough sketch of a top 10:

 

Brown

Hartnett

Banks

Williams

Sosa

Santo

Sandberg

Anson

Alexander

Hack?

 

I'm not sure on Hack, I'd have to take a long look at a lot of other guys, but on a quick skim, he's who I'd put there, with maybe Vaughn challenging him for the spot.

 

well done. with all that I agree almost entirely, although after this exercise I've gotten such a soft spot for Gabby that he's my all time favorite Cub now. not only every thing I've discussed, but he's also responsible for one of the only 'all time legendary baseball plays' that is favorable Cubs , the homer in the gloamin. the only other, Merkel's Boner (sensing an edit auto here), was positive, but has hung over the Cubs since that year (1908).

 

my brother was young at the time but said Williams was a great defender and played the wells like nobody else. Sosa was pretty bad.

 

I also think you have to include Wilson in contention with Santo and Sosa. yes, his tenure was short, but his tenure with the Cubs is comparable to Sosa's 1998-2002. he also didn't play long, so his short tenure was half of his career, and he didn't accomplish much when not a Cub. Cub career OPS+ of 155, 17 points better than Sosa's Cub OPS+. can you imagine if he wasn't so drinky?

 

another person who deserves mention is Frank Chance. deadball era, but an offensive force at the time, and again, part of baseball lore.

 

you know what's ridiculous about nearly all of these guys be except about 3 or 4? none of them started with the Cubs. we complain now that we can't develop major league talent. seems it's always been that way, and admittedly it also makes me favor guys that came up with the Cubs.

[SouthSideRyan]

I've had a soft spot for Wilson as well since I was a kid when I found out the single season NL HR record was held by a Cub. But his Cub career comes out to great timing that his natural peak happened to come when he was a Cub. Sosa's '98-02 was spectacular, but I think I'd have a hard time putting him ahead of guys with twice his ABs if that's all he had. I suppose I'd relent and throw him in there with Hack in competition for the 10 spot, but I have a hard time putting him any higher, and I'd probably still wind up giving it to Hack, or maybe Chance.

 

Not really knowing much about the defensive reps makes it difficult to judge the old school guys, as I'm just automatically giving Hack some credit over Chance defensively for playing a more difficult position.

[ChiCubsFan]

So pretty much Sosa and Santo have similar career numbers, and similar peaks, but Santo played a much tougher position, better defense, and in a much tougher ERA to hit. I know there's no proof that Sosa took steroids, but come on. He also got caught cheating when he corked his bat (whether or not it helps is irrelevant). He was also a jerk (based on my own personal experiences) and disliked by many teammates. I find it amazing that some people are surprised he isn't on the list. Yeah, he was the face of the Cubs for a good amount of time, but when you take everything into consideration there's no way I see him as a top 5 Cubs player of all time.

[soccer10k]

I would definately include Sammy Sosa as well. Excluding him is ludicrous. I would also consider adding Cap Anson for either Billy Williams or Ron Santo.

 

I accept that people feel this way, but I'd like to see someone provide better empirical evidence that Sammy is better than people like Billy Williams or Santo.

 

Just to clarify my post a little better, I would replace Jenkins with Sosa and would consider replacing either Williams or Santo with Anson. I would not exclude Santo (keeping the other four listed) and replace him with Sosa. I didn't mean to start the debate about who was better between Sosa and Santo but it appears that I inadvertantly did.

[CubbieRich]

Santo was a very good 3rd baseman but not even close to Eddie Matthews of the Braves. Matthews wasn't included in the Braves Top 5, the team pushing Chipper Jones.

 

Among the players not included that were favorites: Richie Allen, Gil Hodges, Denny McClain, Bob Allison and Andre Dawson.

 

I see that Big Yak wasn't selected either by the Cards. They let him be the donkey.

[Scott G. F.]

Sammy Sosa should have made the top 5 period end of sentence!!

No excuse for him not to be there, I'm embarred he isn't.

[fromthestretch]

I see that Big Yak wasn't selected either by the Cards. They let him be the donkey.

 

That probably has more to do with the fact that he was only there for 4 1/2 seasons.

[Derwood]

I'm 31, thus not old enough to have seen most of the players mentioned here play live. While I'm sure Santo's numbers say he was great, I think there is quite a bit of "This Old Cub" sentimentality for him as well. Prior to his health problems, I don't remember many people putting him up with Banks, Williams, etc. Heck, Santo was probably only the 4th best player on his own team back in '69

[hardcorecubfan]

I'm 31, thus not old enough to have seen most of the players mentioned here play live. While I'm sure Santo's numbers say he was great, I think there is quite a bit of "This Old Cub" sentimentality for him as well. Prior to his health problems, I don't remember many people putting him up with Banks, Williams, etc. Heck, Santo was probably only the 4th best player on his own team back in '69

 

I would agree with that assesment, and I use to run home every day from school to catch the last cpl of inning in 69

[Mark Priors Calves]

For quick reference here's the all-time hitting and pitching leaders for the Cubs.

 

Thanks for the links Ryan. Some interesting stuff.

 

In 1911, Jimmy Scheckard walked 147 times for an .434 OBP with an IsoD of .158. He led the league in OBP and OPS+ with a 156

 

Ron Santo leads the all-time Cub list of GIDP with 240, funny considering how much he moans and groans when the Cubs do it all the time.

[jjgman21]

I'm 31, thus not old enough to have seen most of the players mentioned here play live. While I'm sure Santo's numbers say he was great, I think there is quite a bit of "This Old Cub" sentimentality for him as well. Prior to his health problems, I don't remember many people putting him up with Banks, Williams, etc. Heck, Santo was probably only the 4th best player on his own team back in '69

 

this is what I was talking about earlier. Santo has been 'the most qualified player not in the HOF' for 25 years. it wasn't until he started having serious health concerns that people started saying things like this.

 

it's more like he's being punished based on sentimentality. I think his last vote by the baseball writers, his vote share actually went down because 'noone wants to boost him up just because of his health problems.' before he went to the Vet's Committe, all forecasts were that he was a shoe in. but that movie came out and he managed to fall well short, even though you won't find a HOF'er that will go on record saying he does not belong.

 

no matter how you slice it, Santo was one of the top 6-7 thirdbasemen in the history of the game, Rolen included. he was far better offensively than Robinson, and only slightly below defensively for a good 6-7 years.

[Soz]

This has been a fascinating discussion, and I hesitate to enter it at this late date, but I'm curious why there has been no mention (unless I've missed it) of Phil Cavarretta, a two-decade Cub, the pride of Lane Tech and a schoolmate of my late dad. His stats: http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cavarph01.shtml

 

Also, I am a bigger Ron Santo fan now than I've ever been in my life -- I absolutely love him on the radio -- but, having watched the Cubs of that era religiously, and having attended many games during the Durocher era, Santo was considered the third or fourth best Cub on those teams, after Banks, Williams and maybe Jenkins. They were outstanding teams, and, yes, maybe Ronnie should be in the Hall of Fame with the others, but I, too, was surprised to see him on the list of the top five.

[thedaymen]

Obviously since this is a debate centered around a stupid MLB idea, there's going to be some problems with the concept, but I think this is pretty flawed. How do you compare Fergie Jenkins to Sammy Sosa to Ron Santo to Three Fingered Brown? Its nigh impossible.

 

If I had to pick a list of the 5 all-time great Cubs it would be (in no particular order):

 

Mordecai Brown

Ernie Banks

Sammy Sosa

Ron Santo

Cap Anson

 

Why? Modecai, Banks and Sosa are baseball legends. 100 years from now people will remember them. Santo had a series of seasons in the 60's and early 70's that was as good as anyone that wore Cubbie Blue put together. And Cap? Well, I wouldn't have put him on the list until I read this thread. No idea how good a ball player he was.

[TruffleShuffle]

Just to add some info, here's how Bill James ranks various Cubs, all-time, at their position.

 

C: Gabby Hartnett - 9

Jody Davis - 90

 

1B: Cap Anson - 11

Frank Chance - 25

Mark Grace - 32

Phil Cavaretta - 59

Bill Buckner - 66

 

2B: Ryne Sandberg - 7

Johnny Evers - 25

Manny Trillo - 49

 

3B: Ron Santo - 6

Stan Hack - 9

 

SS: Ernie Banks - 5

Joe Tinker - 33

Don Kessinger - 72

Shawon Dunston - 82

 

LF: Billy Williams - 11

Hank Sauer - 60

 

CF: Hack Wilson - 19

Rick Monday - 42

 

RF: Sammy Sosa - 19

Andre Dawson - 20

Kiki Cuyler - 39

 

P: Greg Maddux - 9

Three Finger Brown - 20

Fergie Jenkins - 23

Bruce Sutter - 57

Rick Reuschel - 81

Hippo Vaughn - 96

Edited July 21, 2006 by TruffleShuffle

[ConstableRabbit]

Santo was never caught corking.

 

Ron wins.

Cork doesn't help you hit the ball any farther and may actually be a hindrance to home run hitters. It's effect is entirely psychological.

 

Ron was outstanding, but Sammy was better.

 

I'm not arguing whether or not the stuff works...we all know it has an extremely negative connotation in MLB, and is pretty much one of the worst things you can do on the field. If it doesn't actually help, it just makes Sammy look even stupider for getting caught with it.

 

I'm a young guy, Sammy is responsible for some of the greatest moments I've seen as a Cubs fan and probably will ever see...but the overall package of "Sammy Sosa, ballplayer" weighs him down below guys like Santo.

 

What about the intense humanitarian work he did following the hurricane in the Caribbean (I think it might have been "Mitch)? He was recognized by the president at the State of the Union address. That's pretty impressive off-the-field behavior.

 

He did one thing wrong and it was overhyped in order to run him out of town.

 

I didn't begrudge his off the field behavior and actions, nor did I applaud his being run out of town. I simply am not impressed with the corking, the ego, the early departure and the stink about the batting rotation. Add onto that the excellent stat analysis provided by others here and I think that Santo ultimately belongs in the top 5 more than Sammy. Yes, I fully realize that a lot of the negative stuff was blown out of proportion...but they all happened, and it tarnishes him, in my opinion, as a player. Like I said, I think he is one of the top 10 greatest Cubs of all time...just not in the top 5.

 

I didn't say you did, but if he had some on the field problems, but has done some great work off of the field, can't those cancel to an extent? I mean, everyone's talking about how nice of a guy Santo is off the field. All I was saying is that Sammy has done a LOT of stuff too.