Cubs' Players Fighting Back

[cjbucks]

According to Paul Sullivan, Jacque Jones used the bottom of the ninth inning to stand at the top of the steps and get into an argument with fans. They jarred back and forth until security finally escorted the fans from from Wrigley. Sullivan was very critical of Baker and the coaching staff for allowing this to happen. He said that they had to be aware of the situation considering it was more than just a momentary exchange.

 

 

Todd Walker took issue with the fact that both Dusty Baker and Bob Brenly said that Walker bobbled the ball preventing a double play from occurring. Sullivan said this is very reminiscent of the Steve Stone situation. Walker went and watched video specifically to hear Brenly's call on the play.

 

 

 

 

 

NOTE: Sullivan explained all of this on Chicago Tribune Live on CSN. The replay is on at 1:00am cst for those interested.

 

 

FYI - Santo called out Walker big time on the radio also. He spoke so strongly about it that it was almost as if he has it in for Walker.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

And in Baker's comments, he indirectly places the blame on Walker. It's not surprising that Walker got a bit defensive.

 

Indirectly? His comments sounded direct to me. And that was another stupid thing Baker said/did.

 

And that should explain Walker's angst and defensiveness. I don't know what kind of work you do, but put yourself in Walker's position.

 

If my school had a poor performance score and in the newspaper my principal pointed the finger at me directly, I can almost guarantee you, I'm not going to humbly accept it. and yes, someone likely would be thrown under the bus when I'm asked about it.

 

I'm not a Baker apologist and I really like Walker. But, like you mentioned iin a previous post that Walker is the type of guy that appreciates and uses candor in what he says. Well, then he has to be able accept/appreciate Baker's candor in THIS particular situation. Watching the conference, I didn't feel he criticized Walker but rather was explaining the game situation as he saw it.

 

But that's just it. He doesn't agree with Baker's candor so he's candidly saying so. He's saying the ball took a funny hop, but he still got the ball to the shortstop. And maybe Baker wasn't criticizing Walker, but Baker's comments in conjunction with what Brenly said could easily be construed as blaming the loss on Walker. That's likely how Walker saw it too, and no I don't know him, and is likely why he responded the way he did.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Why is Walker getting the blame when it was Cedeno who tried to throw the ball into Lake Michigan? Cedeno still had time to make a good throw and he airmailed it.

 

Agreed. It's not as if Cedeno is known for his unbelievably accurate throwing arm. Ronny has made numerous throwing errors on the year so who is to say that he didn't make another one here. I'm not trying to place the blame on Ronny but I'm just throwing it out there (no pun intended).

 

Exactly. And I was watching the ESPN broadcast today. Interesting enough, the ESPN crew didn't mention a bobble by Walker at all. They spent a few minutes discussing Cedeno's throwing problems. In fact, they spent an extended time discussing how while Cedeno is a slick fielder, he's going to have to learn to be more accurate on his throws.

[Sammy Sofa]

Neifi would have made that play fron 2nd or SS.

 

*Sighs*

[soccer10k]

No offense taken soccer10k, although I don't think the fact that Jones is playing well this year (and he is playing very well based on his career numbers) gives him any more license to yell back at hecklers than Neifi's play does. His strong effort this year does not change the fact that the team is terrible, and no one on this team, not even Lee, has the right to argue that point with any fan.

 

Yeah. I should have said that Jones has a right to be angry. If he wants to rip the fans, he should do it though to press and not start an argument with a fan while on the field. He could have strongly voiced his opinion that the fans weren't treating him well and that he wasn't pleased with it. In that case, Jones has a right to be mad for being booed while somebody like Neifi or Glendon doesn't because they're having horrible years.

[Jon]

For the record, I'd just like to point out that I don't give a you-know-what about this team or whatever they're complaining about now.

[CUBZ99]

And in Baker's comments, he indirectly places the blame on Walker. It's not surprising that Walker got a bit defensive.

 

Indirectly? His comments sounded direct to me. And that was another stupid thing Baker said/did.

 

And that should explain Walker's angst and defensiveness. I don't know what kind of work you do, but put yourself in Walker's position.

 

If my school had a poor performance score and in the newspaper my principal pointed the finger at me directly, I can almost guarantee you, I'm not going to humbly accept it. and yes, someone likely would be thrown under the bus when I'm asked about it.

 

But don't we always complain about this organization's (including players)not holding themselves accountable? In my opinion, Walker was wrong for even bringing up Brenly's name. And, yes, had I been Walker I would've simply said I didn't bobble it and leave it at that. Our department is criticized a lot at my job. Do I "drop a dime" on my team to save me from criticism? Nope.

 

As I've said, I have no problem with Walker denying he bobbled the ball or had trouble getting the ball out of his glove, but there was no reason for him to complain about Brenly's call or for calling out Cedeno.

 

But Walker is not only being called out, he's feeling pushed out the door. In his mind, he's really not "part" of the team anymore so looking out for the team is no longer in his mindset.

 

Walker's situation is much different than your analogy. For one, this isn't Walker's first "principal" that is looking to get rid of him or having problems with him. Two, to make your analogy fit better, you would have to include every administrator and prinicpal (i.e. GM and announcer) to the mix and believe that they were all out to get you by making negative comments about your performance.

[CubsBullsBears]

I think now I know why security wouldn't let me display my signs during the game, and only b/t innings. It all makes sense.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

It's because the people behind you want to be able to see the game.

[snoodmonger]

If Walker can't handle being publicly criticized (Something many wish Baker would do MORE of) then he has no right to publoicly criticize other players.

 

This team not only sucks, they suck at sucking. I'm so tired of them, and w/ Hendry running the show, we're pretty much guaranteed of 2 more years of bad ball.

[CubsBullsBears]

It's because the people behind you want to be able to see the game.

No one was directly behind me

[rocket]

It's because the people behind you want to be able to see the game.

No one was directly behind me

 

did you sign by any chance say "LOOK AT ME I WANNA BE ON TV"

[Soul]

It's because the people behind you want to be able to see the game.

No one was directly behind me

 

It's still rude to put signs up during play---and if you do it then others will get the idea that they can, too. Security was right to tell you to wait until between innings. The rule is there for good reason.

[dalgreen]

I also read that the Jones/fan argument entailed the fan saying Dusty should be fired and Jones calling him a "racist".

 

I have a sick feeling when Dusty is fired the whole race issue will be brought up.

 

It wasn't brought up when Baylor was fired.

 

Like I said before, there is a difference getting mad and arguing at a fan because the fan yells, "You suck" vs. a fan getting personal with the insults. I wasn't there and most of us weren't, but if the fan(s) started yelling about his wife, mom, etc, I think Jacque had every right to yell back. It's amazing how "liquid courage" seems to make fans feel like they're entitled to make asses of themselves.

[YearofDaCubs]

Bottome line, Baker has no control over his clubhouse. I'm not surprised though this is def NOT the first time this has happened as all of you are aware. I'm just sick of this debacle and honestly I don't see how things can get better within a year or two, not when you have monkeys like Hendry and Baker running the circus show.

[stitchface]

I also read that the Jones/fan argument entailed the fan saying Dusty should be fired and Jones calling him a "racist".

 

I have a sick feeling when Dusty is fired the whole race issue will be brought up.

 

It wasn't brought up when Baylor was fired.

 

Like I said before, there is a difference getting mad and arguing at a fan because the fan yells, "You suck" vs. a fan getting personal with the insults. I wasn't there and most of us weren't, but if the fan(s) started yelling about his wife, mom, etc, I think Jacque had every right to yell back. It's amazing how "liquid courage" seems to make fans feel like they're entitled to make asses of themselves.

 

so, we weren't there so we can't assume jones was out of line, but we can assume the fan was drunk and insulting his mother? Even if he was, Jones responding is idiotic and pointless.

[hardcorecubfan]

i dont know how smart it is to piss off fans who are already filled with beer, hot and annoyed that the cubs suck. maybe someone will throw something at him and actually hit him this time

 

This statement is just a blatent lie! A Cub fan at Wrigley being drunk would never happen especially in the beachers, but if they were drunk their aim would not be good enough to hit him.

 

"They suck" I believe is just too mild of a word to describe them at this point in time.

[BigbadB]

All of this stuff is happening (ie. Barrett decking AJ, Jones lashing out at fans, Walker lashing out at the booth) because why?

 

THIS TEAM SUCKS!

 

We haven't seen the last of it either. This team isn't going to wake up tomorrow and be a good team. When you lose, you start pointing fingers. You have trouble keeping your composure. It's not fun going out there day after day knowing the season is basically over, except for the meaningless games that still need to be played.

 

I feel for the players. They didn't assemble this lousy team. Management did. It's not about race. I don't see the race card being used. The Cubs have had 2 different black managers in this century, and one received a very nifty 4 year contract. What has he done with that contract? I'll be the first to tell you he didn't earn it.

 

There has been no accountability this year for this teams suckage. Hendry should resign effective immediately. MacPhail should follow suit. Resigning now would actually be a good way to go out. It might just allow them to save face and land another professional job of some sort, someday. If they status quo, I can't seen anyone wanting to take a chance on them anytime soon. A captain goes down with his ship, but this isn't a ship. This is a professional baseball team. Or, should I say it's SUPPOSED to be a professional baseball team.

 

The problems start and end at the top. If this was a good team, there wouldn't be all this hatred spewing forth. Walker would be patting Cedeno's bottom rather than looking for someone else to blame.

 

Besides, it's not about looking for scapegoats. The whole team loses, not just the person who made the error or struck out with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 9th or didn't hold the runner, etc....

 

We saw all of this in 2002 with Baylor and we saw it again in 2004. It's happening again in 2006. Management has been given the tools necessary to build a winning team. The fans know it. The fans also expect it. Because management didn't build a winning team, someone needs to be held accountable. There hasn't been 1 firing at this point. The pitching has been horrid and the ability to get on base and score runs has been horrid. A lot of people need to go for those two reasons alone.

 

I'm sure Walker will end up being the scapegoat when all is said and done. I won't condone his actions, but he is not the problem with this team. MacPhail, Hendry, Baker, Rothschild, Clines, Matthews, Pole and any other significant person in charge of building and maintaining a winning organization should be the scapegoats. It's managements fault that Jones is getting into it with fans. It's managements fault Walker is lashing out at Brenly. Put a winner on the field and everyone is happy. EVERYONE!

 

Bottom line.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

All of this stuff is happening (ie. Barrett decking AJ, Jones lashing out at fans, Walker lashing out at the booth) because why?

 

THIS TEAM SUCKS!

 

We haven't seen the last of it either. This team isn't going to wake up tomorrow and be a good team. When you lose, you start pointing fingers. You have trouble keeping your composure. It's not fun going out there day after day knowing the season is basically over, except for the meaningless games that still need to be played.

 

I feel for the players. They didn't assemble this lousy team. Management did. It's not about race. I don't see the race card being used. The Cubs have had 2 different black managers in this century, and one received a very nifty 4 year contract. What has he done with that contract? I'll be the first to tell you he didn't earn it.

 

There has been no accountability this year for this teams suckage. Hendry should resign effective immediately. MacPhail should follow suit. Resigning now would actually be a good way to go out. It might just allow them to save face and land another professional job of some sort, someday. If they status quo, I can't seen anyone wanting to take a chance on them anytime soon. A captain goes down with his ship, but this isn't a ship. This is a professional baseball team. Or, should I say it's SUPPOSED to be a professional baseball team.

 

The problems start and end at the top. If this was a good team, there wouldn't be all this hatred spewing forth. Walker would be patting Cedeno's bottom rather than looking for someone else to blame.

 

Besides, it's not about looking for scapegoats. The whole team loses, not just the person who made the error or struck out with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 9th or didn't hold the runner, etc....

 

We saw all of this in 2002 with Baylor and we saw it again in 2004. It's happening again in 2006. Management has been given the tools necessary to build a winning team. The fans know it. The fans also expect it. Because management didn't build a winning team, someone needs to be held accountable. There hasn't been 1 firing at this point. The pitching has been horrid and the ability to get on base and score runs has been horrid. A lot of people need to go for those two reasons alone.

 

I'm sure Walker will end up being the scapegoat when all is said and done. I won't condone his actions, but he is not the problem with this team. MacPhail, Hendry, Baker, Rothschild, Clines, Matthews, Pole and any other significant person in charge of building and maintaining a winning organization should be the scapegoats. It's managements fault that Jones is getting into it with fans. It's managements fault Walker is lashing out at Brenly. Put a winner on the field and everyone is happy. EVERYONE!

 

Bottom line.

 

Well stated, BBB! =D>

[Illini Iceman]

Two things that people say about Baker:

 

1) He always favors veterans over young players

2) He won't call out his players in the press and "light a fire"

 

In this case, he calls out a player and picks the veteran to blame instead of the young player.

 

IMO Dusty is overdue to be fired for a number of reasons, but in this case it seems he is doing what a lot of people here have complained about him not doing before and still get getting criticized.

[jjgman21]

I also read that the Jones/fan argument entailed the fan saying Dusty should be fired and Jones calling him a "racist".

 

I have a sick feeling when Dusty is fired the whole race issue will be brought up.

 

It wasn't brought up when Baylor was fired.

 

Like I said before, there is a difference getting mad and arguing at a fan because the fan yells, "You suck" vs. a fan getting personal with the insults. I wasn't there and most of us weren't, but if the fan(s) started yelling about his wife, mom, etc, I think Jacque had every right to yell back. It's amazing how "liquid courage" seems to make fans feel like they're entitled to make asses of themselves.

 

so, we weren't there so we can't assume jones was out of line, but we can assume the fan was drunk and insulting his mother? Even if he was, Jones responding is idiotic and pointless.

 

the way for Hendry/Trib/Chicago to get around the race card thing is do what many here advocate anyway. hire the guy from the Braves. he's hispanis, isn't he?

 

kind of a bunch of crap when Chicago is better about hiring minority managers/coaches than any other major sports city. Cartwright, Guillen, Guillen's predecessor, Baylor, Baker, Smith.

[erik316wttn]

Two things that people say about Baker:

 

1) He always favors veterans over young players

2) He won't call out his players in the press and "light a fire"

 

In this case, he calls out a player and picks the veteran to blame instead of the young player.

 

IMO Dusty is overdue to be fired for a number of reasons, but in this case it seems he is doing what a lot of people here have complained about him not doing before and still get getting criticized.

 

Dusty has a lot to be criticized for, even if he may have done soemthing right for once.

[dalgreen]

I also read that the Jones/fan argument entailed the fan saying Dusty should be fired and Jones calling him a "racist".

 

I have a sick feeling when Dusty is fired the whole race issue will be brought up.

 

It wasn't brought up when Baylor was fired.

 

Like I said before, there is a difference getting mad and arguing at a fan because the fan yells, "You suck" vs. a fan getting personal with the insults. I wasn't there and most of us weren't, but if the fan(s) started yelling about his wife, mom, etc, I think Jacque had every right to yell back. It's amazing how "liquid courage" seems to make fans feel like they're entitled to make asses of themselves.

 

so, we weren't there so we can't assume jones was out of line, but we can assume the fan was drunk and insulting his mother? Even if he was, Jones responding is idiotic and pointless.

 

the way for Hendry/Trib/Chicago to get around the race card thing is do what many here advocate anyway. hire the guy from the Braves. he's hispanis, isn't he?

 

kind of a bunch of crap when Chicago is better about hiring minority managers/coaches than any other major sports city. Cartwright, Guillen, Guillen's predecessor, Baylor, Baker, Smith.

 

There will be no race factor, just as there was none when Baylor was fired. The best thing for the Cubs to do is to hire a good manager, period. At this point, I don't know if Hendry knows what one is.

[beowulf28]

All of this stuff is happening (ie. Barrett decking AJ, Jones lashing out at fans, Walker lashing out at the booth) because why?

 

THIS TEAM SUCKS!

 

We haven't seen the last of it either. This team isn't going to wake up tomorrow and be a good team. When you lose, you start pointing fingers. You have trouble keeping your composure. It's not fun going out there day after day knowing the season is basically over, except for the meaningless games that still need to be played.

 

I feel for the players. They didn't assemble this lousy team. Management did. It's not about race. I don't see the race card being used. The Cubs have had 2 different black managers in this century, and one received a very nifty 4 year contract. What has he done with that contract? I'll be the first to tell you he didn't earn it.

 

There has been no accountability this year for this teams suckage. Hendry should resign effective immediately. MacPhail should follow suit. Resigning now would actually be a good way to go out. It might just allow them to save face and land another professional job of some sort, someday. If they status quo, I can't seen anyone wanting to take a chance on them anytime soon. A captain goes down with his ship, but this isn't a ship. This is a professional baseball team. Or, should I say it's SUPPOSED to be a professional baseball team.

 

The problems start and end at the top. If this was a good team, there wouldn't be all this hatred spewing forth. Walker would be patting Cedeno's bottom rather than looking for someone else to blame.

 

Besides, it's not about looking for scapegoats. The whole team loses, not just the person who made the error or struck out with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 9th or didn't hold the runner, etc....

 

We saw all of this in 2002 with Baylor and we saw it again in 2004. It's happening again in 2006. Management has been given the tools necessary to build a winning team. The fans know it. The fans also expect it. Because management didn't build a winning team, someone needs to be held accountable. There hasn't been 1 firing at this point. The pitching has been horrid and the ability to get on base and score runs has been horrid. A lot of people need to go for those two reasons alone.

 

I'm sure Walker will end up being the scapegoat when all is said and done. I won't condone his actions, but he is not the problem with this team. MacPhail, Hendry, Baker, Rothschild, Clines, Matthews, Pole and any other significant person in charge of building and maintaining a winning organization should be the scapegoats. It's managements fault that Jones is getting into it with fans. It's managements fault Walker is lashing out at Brenly. Put a winner on the field and everyone is happy. EVERYONE!

 

Bottom line.

 

Well stated, BBB! =D>

 

I totally agree with both of you! =D> =D>

[beowulf28]

For the record, I'd just like to point out that I don't give a you-know-what about this team or whatever they're complaining about now.

 

You are correct, sir!