Jim Hendry on WGN radio 2-nite and he will take calls

[Outshined_One]

I'm confused about your comment. What did he say that was incorrect? Care to prove that most of the High OBP guys are not also good hitters?

 

I was speaking from their perspective rather than my own.

 

Also, there are plenty of guys out there with high averages and OBPs that are not much higher. The guy batting leadoff for the Cubs, for example.

[dalgreen]

I didn't listen to the interview but it sounds like the same interview I've heard from Hendry before. If I'm mistaken I apologize, but some of you sound like you're surprised with some of Hendry's comments or lack of comments, particularly regarding OBP. Is it that you've been so focused on blaming Dusty that Hendry's philosophy/beliefs flew under your radar screen? I've been in civil and not so civil discussions in the past about my belief that Baker and Hendry are essentially of the same philosophy in just about every area of baseball.

 

So the fact that the Cubs as an orginization are putting more of an emphasis on OBP is bad thing?

 

Fact? The only thing I know is that Hendry said we are. Saying and doing are two different things. Maybe once we start developing good position players maybe we'll be able to see if the organization is putting more of an emphasis on OBP or not.

[CUBZ99]

The AVG/OBP thing should come as no surprise. This team prefers the traditional five tools to everything else. Walks are a decent bonus, but not a necessity nor are they an indicator of anything. Guys who have high OBPs have high averages. The reason why they are such good hitters is because they get hits, not because they know how to work counts and draw walks.

 

Face it, Hendry said nothing new.

 

Exactly, the way he answered the question reflects on him ignoring plate discipline in players.

 

I'm confused about your comment. What did he say that was incorrect? Care to prove that most of the High OBP guys are not also good hitters?

 

When asked about OBP, Hendry says that high OBP guys are good hitters, then references that players are supposed to hit their way, not walk. It's exactly what O_O said, he correlates the ability to get on base with that of hitting for a high average, while downplaying/dismissing the walk.

 

Hendry also backed up his statement by saying that if you go look at the top 20 or so leaders in OBP, you will find that they are good hitters. And you know what? He was right. :shock: In fact look at the top 40 leaders in OBP this year and almost all of those guys, except Morgan Ensberg are good hitters.

 

He was saying that there is generally a correlation between a good hitter and a guy that gets on base. Looking at the actual stats I don't see any thing that refutes his claim. Sure there are 2 -3 players that don't quite fit his statement, but 37-38 out of 40 is pretty good.

[CUBZ99]

I'm confused about your comment. What did he say that was incorrect? Care to prove that most of the High OBP guys are not also good hitters?

 

I was speaking from their perspective rather than my own.

 

Also, there are plenty of guys out there with high averages and OBPs that are not much higher. The guy batting leadoff for the Cubs, for example.

 

Like I pointed out in my other post, if you look up the top 40 OBP guys in the majors 37-38 of them are good hitters. Sure there are some good hitters that don't have high OBP, just as there are bad hitters that have outstanding OBP, but they tend to be the exception rather than the norm.

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm confused about your comment. What did he say that was incorrect? Care to prove that most of the High OBP guys are not also good hitters?

 

I was speaking from their perspective rather than my own.

 

Also, there are plenty of guys out there with high averages and OBPs that are not much higher. The guy batting leadoff for the Cubs, for example.

 

Like I pointed out in my other post, if you look up the top 40 OBP guys in the majors 37-38 of them are good hitters. Sure there are some good hitters that don't have high OBP, just as there are bad hitters that have outstanding OBP, but they tend to be the exception rather than the norm.

 

Is it possible that they are good hitters because they are patient?

[Outshined_One]

Like I pointed out in my other post, if you look up the top 40 OBP guys in the majors 37-38 of them are good hitters. Sure there are some good hitters that don't have high OBP, just as there are bad hitters that have outstanding OBP, but they tend to be the exception rather than the norm.

 

The problem is, he was specifically talking about in the minors. Averages are really hard to predict year-in, year-out with minor league guys. One of the best ways to determine how well a guy will do as he advances through the minor leagues is not his average or K/BB (both of which are common threads for a lot of guys this team targets), but his IsoD, which IS a measure of how many walks (and HBPs) a guy takes.

 

People point to strikeouts being the problem with Ryan Harvey and Brian Dopirak as they have advanced. However, what people tend not to realize was that their walk rates were absolutely putrid, especially when you factor out IBBs. These guys had reasonable averages and everything, but they were focused more on making contact than on taking pitches.

 

Averages are incredibly hard to predict, year in, year out. So many things go into them: luck, defense, selectiveness, and so on. Those of us who follow BABIP see this; there are elements that can inflate or deflate a guy's average in any given year.

 

The point of my post regarding Pierre was to show that high averages DO NOT correlate to high OBPs all the time. Look at guys like Robinson Cano, Gary Matthews Jr, Miguel Tejada, and a number of the other guys who are hitting over .300 this year. Even though they have good averages, their on base percentages are not much higher. That element of their game is a weakness.

 

However, with guys like Travis Hafner, Bobby Abreu, Albert Pujols, Manny Ramirez, and so on, they have that ability not to make outs. They hit well, but they also take walks and have OBPs in the .400s. I maintain that the reason why they are such good hitters is not because they know how to hit, but also because they have a really good approach at the plate that allows them to not make outs.

 

The Cubs can't get that through their heads. They'd rather have a guy who hits .300/.350 than a guy who hits .270/.380 because they value hits over walks. That kind of approach in the minor leagues is simply begging for trouble, especially considering guys will continue to face more advanced pitching as they ascend the minors.

 

The truth is, if they're at the same levels, same ages, and so on, the .270/.380 guy is more likely to reach the majors and succeed than the .300/.350 guy.

[dalgreen]

I'm confused about your comment. What did he say that was incorrect? Care to prove that most of the High OBP guys are not also good hitters?

 

I was speaking from their perspective rather than my own.

 

Also, there are plenty of guys out there with high averages and OBPs that are not much higher. The guy batting leadoff for the Cubs, for example.

 

Like I pointed out in my other post, if you look up the top 40 OBP guys in the majors 37-38 of them are good hitters. Sure there are some good hitters that don't have high OBP, just as there are bad hitters that have outstanding OBP, but they tend to be the exception rather than the norm.

 

Now you've opened up a can of worms. What is a good hitter? How much better is a .310 hitter vs. a .285 hitter? A .300 hitter vs. a .270 hitter? I'd be willing to guess that the top OBP guys with the high averages you and Hendry addressed, have a high OBP and avg. because they are primarily in hitters' counts, which means having patience.

[grrrrlacher]

I'm confused about your comment. What did he say that was incorrect? Care to prove that most of the High OBP guys are not also good hitters?

 

I was speaking from their perspective rather than my own.

 

Also, there are plenty of guys out there with high averages and OBPs that are not much higher. The guy batting leadoff for the Cubs, for example.

 

Like I pointed out in my other post, if you look up the top 40 OBP guys in the majors 37-38 of them are good hitters. Sure there are some good hitters that don't have high OBP, just as there are bad hitters that have outstanding OBP, but they tend to be the exception rather than the norm.

 

Okay. Sure. So out of 40 in the MLB each team on average gets 1-2. Our one is DLee. The problem is guys that aren't good hitters hacking away at everything. Maybe their average would be better if they showed the pitcher they would take a walk and that he needed to throw strikes to get them out. You want the .280 hitter with a .400 OBP (like the historical Jim Thome) and not with a .320 OBP (like the historical Jacque Jones). Even the .260 guy can have a .360 OBP instead of a .298 OBP. I'd really like to see guys add .100 points to their OBP via walks.

 

Look at Giambi this year - .260 Avg with a .415 OBP. But look at Matt Holliday - .337 Avg with a .387 OBP. Who do you think is having more of an impact.

 

If you turn it around and look at the top 40 Avg guys they won't all be in the top 40 OBP. But that isn't who I'm worried about on this team it is the Murton's, the Jones', the Pierre's, the Cedeno's that irritate me. For instance Felipe Lopez(.268) and Royce Clayton(.269) have virtually the same Avg this year, but Lopez has a .356 OBP while Clayton has a .315. That's what I'm talking about.

[TXCubsFan]

Like I pointed out in my other post, if you look up the top 40 OBP guys in the majors 37-38 of them are good hitters. Sure there are some good hitters that don't have high OBP, just as there are bad hitters that have outstanding OBP, but they tend to be the exception rather than the norm.

 

The problem is, he was specifically talking about in the minors. Averages are really hard to predict year-in, year-out with minor league guys. One of the best ways to determine how well a guy will do as he advances through the minor leagues is not his average or K/BB (both of which are common threads for a lot of guys this team targets), but his IsoD, which IS a measure of how many walks (and HBPs) a guy takes.

 

People point to strikeouts being the problem with Ryan Harvey and Brian Dopirak as they have advanced. However, what people tend not to realize was that their walk rates were absolutely putrid, especially when you factor out IBBs. These guys had reasonable averages and everything, but they were focused more on making contact than on taking pitches.

 

Averages are incredibly hard to predict, year in, year out. So many things go into them: luck, defense, selectiveness, and so on. Those of us who follow BABIP see this; there are elements that can inflate or deflate a guy's average in any given year.

 

The point of my post regarding Pierre was to show that high averages DO NOT correlate to high OBPs all the time. Look at guys like Robinson Cano, Gary Matthews Jr, Miguel Tejada, and a number of the other guys who are hitting over .300 this year. Even though they have good averages, their on base percentages are not much higher. That element of their game is a weakness.

 

However, with guys like Travis Hafner, Bobby Abreu, Albert Pujols, Manny Ramirez, and so on, they have that ability not to make outs. They hit well, but they also take walks and have OBPs in the .400s. I maintain that the reason why they are such good hitters is not because they know how to hit, but also because they have a really good approach at the plate that allows them to not make outs.

 

The Cubs can't get that through their heads. They'd rather have a guy who hits .300/.350 than a guy who hits .270/.380 because they value hits over walks. That kind of approach in the minor leagues is simply begging for trouble, especially considering guys will continue to face more advanced pitching as they ascend the minors.

 

The truth is, if they're at the same levels, same ages, and so on, the .270/.380 guy is more likely to reach the majors and succeed than the .300/.350 guy.

 

With Hendry's philosophy, the best outcome you can expect from a minor

leaguer in your system will be Jacque Jones - a high OPS guy who doesn't walk enough, a prototypical #6 hitter. If the Cubs want to be successful, they should just concentrate on drafting pitchers and getting their starting lineups with trades and free agents signings.

 

Interesting that Barrett and Lee took the next step with the Cubs, and that Jacque recaptured his mojo at Wrigley. Perhaps Hendry and company are good at identifying major league hitters but lousy at developing hitting prospects.

[CUBZ99]

I'm confused about your comment. What did he say that was incorrect? Care to prove that most of the High OBP guys are not also good hitters?

 

I was speaking from their perspective rather than my own.

 

Also, there are plenty of guys out there with high averages and OBPs that are not much higher. The guy batting leadoff for the Cubs, for example.

 

Like I pointed out in my other post, if you look up the top 40 OBP guys in the majors 37-38 of them are good hitters. Sure there are some good hitters that don't have high OBP, just as there are bad hitters that have outstanding OBP, but they tend to be the exception rather than the norm.

 

Now you've opened up a can of worms. What is a good hitter? How much better is a .310 hitter vs. a .285 hitter? A .300 hitter vs. a .270 hitter? I'd be willing to guess that the top OBP guys with the high averages you and Hendry addressed, have a high OBP and avg. because they are primarily in hitters' counts, which means having patience.

 

I think you may be on to something. I'm just pointing out that alot of people are hearing only what they want to hear from Hendry. His statement tonight regarding OBP was positive for Cub's fans and was accurate. I don't see what the problem is with Hendry trying to tie OBP to hitting, as you pointed out they appear to be closely related. I also looked up the top 40 leaders in batting avg. in the majors and only 1 of them had an OBP of less than .350. The fact that he acknowledged that the Cubs were in fact trying to address the prior non emphasis on OBP is a positive.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I need to stop posting in threads after O_O already perfectly says what I want to.

[CUBZ99]

I'm confused about your comment. What did he say that was incorrect? Care to prove that most of the High OBP guys are not also good hitters?

 

I was speaking from their perspective rather than my own.

 

Also, there are plenty of guys out there with high averages and OBPs that are not much higher. The guy batting leadoff for the Cubs, for example.

 

Like I pointed out in my other post, if you look up the top 40 OBP guys in the majors 37-38 of them are good hitters. Sure there are some good hitters that don't have high OBP, just as there are bad hitters that have outstanding OBP, but they tend to be the exception rather than the norm.

 

Okay. Sure. So out of 40 in the MLB each team on average gets 1-2. Our one is DLee. The problem is guys that aren't good hitters hacking away at everything. Maybe their average would be better if they showed the pitcher they would take a walk and that he needed to throw strikes to get them out. You want the .280 hitter with a .400 OBP (like the historical Jim Thome) and not with a .320 OBP (like the historical Jacque Jones). Even the .260 guy can have a .360 OBP instead of a .298 OBP. I'd really like to see guys add .100 points to their OBP via walks.

 

Look at Giambi this year - .260 Avg with a .415 OBP. But look at Matt Holliday - .337 Avg with a .387 OBP. Who do you think is having more of an impact.

 

If you turn it around and look at the top 40 Avg guys they won't all be in the top 40 OBP. But that isn't who I'm worried about on this team it is the Murton's, the Jones', the Pierre's, the Cedeno's that irritate me. For instance Felipe Lopez(.268) and Royce Clayton(.269) have virtually the same Avg this year, but Lopez has a .356 OBP while Clayton has a .315. That's what I'm talking about.

 

Only one of the top 40 BA guys has a less than .350 OBP.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

A top 40 OBP is .380+

 

Of the top 40 in AVG, only 22 are in the top 40 in OBP.

[grrrrlacher]

I'm confused about your comment. What did he say that was incorrect? Care to prove that most of the High OBP guys are not also good hitters?

 

I was speaking from their perspective rather than my own.

 

Also, there are plenty of guys out there with high averages and OBPs that are not much higher. The guy batting leadoff for the Cubs, for example.

 

Like I pointed out in my other post, if you look up the top 40 OBP guys in the majors 37-38 of them are good hitters. Sure there are some good hitters that don't have high OBP, just as there are bad hitters that have outstanding OBP, but they tend to be the exception rather than the norm.

 

Okay. Sure. So out of 40 in the MLB each team on average gets 1-2. Our one is DLee. The problem is guys that aren't good hitters hacking away at everything. Maybe their average would be better if they showed the pitcher they would take a walk and that he needed to throw strikes to get them out. You want the .280 hitter with a .400 OBP (like the historical Jim Thome) and not with a .320 OBP (like the historical Jacque Jones). Even the .260 guy can have a .360 OBP instead of a .298 OBP. I'd really like to see guys add .100 points to their OBP via walks.

 

Look at Giambi this year - .260 Avg with a .415 OBP. But look at Matt Holliday - .337 Avg with a .387 OBP. Who do you think is having more of an impact.

 

If you turn it around and look at the top 40 Avg guys they won't all be in the top 40 OBP. But that isn't who I'm worried about on this team it is the Murton's, the Jones', the Pierre's, the Cedeno's that irritate me. For instance Felipe Lopez(.268) and Royce Clayton(.269) have virtually the same Avg this year, but Lopez has a .356 OBP while Clayton has a .315. That's what I'm talking about.

 

Only one of the top 40 BA guys has a less than .350 OBP.

 

Actually I count 3 (Hillenbrand, J Jones, and Pudge)

 

14 of the top 40 OBP guys have avg less than .300 while the top 40 all have OBP above .380.

 

16 of the top AVG guys have a OBP less than .380.

 

I'd rather have one of the 14 than one of the 16. But that's me and not Hendry.[/url]

[Outshined_One]

Only one of the top 40 BA guys has a less than .350 OBP.

 

And in the majors as a whole, all of the Top 40 BA guys have averages at or over .305. I mean, cripes, these guys have all made the major leagues, it only figures that they've managed to post walk rates higher than .045. The major league average is about .060 (I believe), so it pretty much figures those guys can post >.350 OBPs.

[CUBZ99]

A top 40 OBP is .380+

 

Of the top 40 in AVG, only 22 are in the top 40 in OBP.

 

And how many of the top 40 in AVG have an OBP over .350? 39?

You are changing Hendry's words to say "only the top hitters have the top OBP." He never said that and nobody in their right mind would argue that. Hendry said something to the effect that "if you look at the top OBP guys in the league they are also generally good hitters." If you disagree with his statement or think he was incorrect, please provide some stats that show that the top OBP are generally not good hitters?

 

I agree with O_O to some extent, and he has a good point regarding comparing players. But right now I would be ecstatic if the Cubs even had a .300/.350 guy in the minors that would make an impact in the near future.

[CUBZ99]

I'm confused about your comment. What did he say that was incorrect? Care to prove that most of the High OBP guys are not also good hitters?

 

I was speaking from their perspective rather than my own.

 

Also, there are plenty of guys out there with high averages and OBPs that are not much higher. The guy batting leadoff for the Cubs, for example.

 

Like I pointed out in my other post, if you look up the top 40 OBP guys in the majors 37-38 of them are good hitters. Sure there are some good hitters that don't have high OBP, just as there are bad hitters that have outstanding OBP, but they tend to be the exception rather than the norm.

 

Okay. Sure. So out of 40 in the MLB each team on average gets 1-2. Our one is DLee. The problem is guys that aren't good hitters hacking away at everything. Maybe their average would be better if they showed the pitcher they would take a walk and that he needed to throw strikes to get them out. You want the .280 hitter with a .400 OBP (like the historical Jim Thome) and not with a .320 OBP (like the historical Jacque Jones). Even the .260 guy can have a .360 OBP instead of a .298 OBP. I'd really like to see guys add .100 points to their OBP via walks.

 

Look at Giambi this year - .260 Avg with a .415 OBP. But look at Matt Holliday - .337 Avg with a .387 OBP. Who do you think is having more of an impact.

 

If you turn it around and look at the top 40 Avg guys they won't all be in the top 40 OBP. But that isn't who I'm worried about on this team it is the Murton's, the Jones', the Pierre's, the Cedeno's that irritate me. For instance Felipe Lopez(.268) and Royce Clayton(.269) have virtually the same Avg this year, but Lopez has a .356 OBP while Clayton has a .315. That's what I'm talking about.

 

Only one of the top 40 BA guys has a less than .350 OBP.

 

Actually I count 3 (Hillenbrand, J Jones, and Pudge)

 

14 of the top 40 OBP guys have avg less than .300 while the top 40 all have OBP above .380.

 

16 of the top AVG guys have a OBP less than .380.

 

I'd rather have one of the 14 than one of the 16. But that's me and not Hendry.[/url]

 

You are correct with Jones, Hillenbrand and Pudge. :oops:

 

Hillenbrand is .346.

[TXCubsFan]

The OBP problem with the Cubs isn't their middle of the lineup hitters such as Lee, Barrett, and ARam. The problem is ignoring that walks for their #1 and #2 hitters are as important as hits for the purposes of scoring runs. It's ignoring that walks for their #7 and #8 hitters can start big innings. It's ignoring that plate discipline will raise the pitch counts of their opponent's top starters, allowing the Cub hitters to face the opponent's bullpen sooner.

[UMFan83]

Ok ummm so lets get good hitters then. If Hendry thinks that we need good hitters, then lets get us some good hitters and stop signing the Jock Jones' (based on his previous track record) of the world

[Mizzou]

Oh cripes.

 

"You just hit your way on, you don't walk your way on."

 

You have to be kidding me.

Good God, what an incompetent moron!

[CubColtPacer]

The OBP problem with the Cubs isn't their middle of the lineup hitters such as Lee, Barrett, and ARam. The problem is ignoring that walks for their #1 and #2 hitters are as important as hits for the purposes of scoring runs. It's ignoring that walks for their #7 and #8 hitters can start big innings. It's ignoring that plate discipline will raise the pitch counts of their opponent's top starters, allowing the Cub hitters to face the opponent's bullpen sooner.

 

Exactly. That is why I'm fine with Lee, Barrett, Ramirez, and Jones if he can keep his level of production somewhere near where it is currently. Pierre if he can continue his recent trend I can live with (someone posted that his numbers are dramatically after the ASB career wise anyway?). Cedeno has been a black hole on offense. Murton had a minor problem of being too patient, and the coaching staff took a sledgehammer to what was a minor problem, and now he seems to have a major problem with being too agressive. We have our middle of the order hitters that can get our big hits that we don't necessarily need our high OBP's from. Now we just need the players around them to get on base at a high clip (the middle infield, left and center field). Do I think Piurre can make do with a slightly lower OBP because of all the problems he causes on the bases? Yes-now we just need to see if he can continue his hot bat so that his OBP will only be slightly to moderately less instead of at the level it is now.

[cjbucks]

The OBP problem with the Cubs isn't their middle of the lineup hitters such as Lee, Barrett, and ARam. The problem is ignoring that walks for their #1 and #2 hitters are as important as hits for the purposes of scoring runs. It's ignoring that walks for their #7 and #8 hitters can start big innings. It's ignoring that plate discipline will raise the pitch counts of their opponent's top starters, allowing the Cub hitters to face the opponent's bullpen sooner.

 

Well said, especially the bolded part. I can't be the only one in the world that realizes it's bad if our starters throw 17-18 pitches an inning and the other teams throw 11-12. On a similiar note what are the odds that Dusty would bat a guy like Youkillis leadoff (407 obp) when he got a "traditional" leadoff guy like Crisp back from the DL. I'm going to say 0%.

[Andy]

I don't think that Hendry's comment was as bad as you guys are making it out to be. He said you still have to hit, you can't just go up there hoping to walk for an entire year and have a good percentage. which is true. Not defending him, but it wasn't that horrible.

 

:lol: Cap and Waddle were saying all the money coming off the books and he mentioned Walker's... that money will go far :P

 

I think Walker might make less than Neifi. How sad is that?

They both make 2.5 million but Neifi also has a 1 million signing bonus.

[MPrior]

And how many of the top 40 in AVG have an OBP over .350? 39?

You are changing Hendry's words to say "only the top hitters have the top OBP." He never said that and nobody in their right mind would argue that. Hendry said something to the effect that "if you look at the top OBP guys in the league they are also generally good hitters." If you disagree with his statement or think he was incorrect, please provide some stats that show that the top OBP are generally not good hitters?

 

I agree with O_O to some extent, and he has a good point regarding comparing players. But right now I would be ecstatic if the Cubs even had a .300/.350 guy in the minors that would make an impact in the near future.

 

I'm pretty sure it's not that people disagree with the statement that you've quoted (although Hendry did say more than that). I think it's much more that people object to what Hendry's comments reveal about his stance on the importance of patience and walks.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Is the interview gonna be archived in case I want to kill myself later?

 

Just kill yourself now. Da Cobs are a vera sucky team and we have vera sucky leadership.