4/30 Cubs (Big Z) vs Beermakers (Capuano) 1 pm WGN

CaliforniaRaisin · April 30, 2006

I disagree. The lapses have cost him because it prevents him from pitching later into games and perhaps, giving the offense time to score so he can qualify for a win. Going into this game, he pitched 29.2 innings over 5 games. That's not even averaging 6 inning a start. Today he didn't record an out in the 5th.

finally it comes out

zambrano sucks cause he doesn't have any wins

Heh.

Blueheart05 · April 30, 2006

I guess we will have to but I will say that his numbers certainly aren't representative of anyone who's pitched well overall. Serena also brought up a good point about Maddux. Few people were defending him last April with his 3 QS and inflated ERA. For some reason, this is different...

I don't recall many people saying that Maddux was melting down every game, or hadn't done anything to deserve praise last April.

No, they said he was old and a waste of money (not to mention pitching batting practice). Again, Zambrano has had at least one inning in every game this year where he's been his own worst enemy. You may not like my "melt down" term but that's what I call it.

Maddux was/is old, and questioning his contract is far from irrational. On the other hand, you are picking apart Zambrano, even when he's done well. By that definition every pitcher in the league is their own worst enemy consistently by failing to put failure behind them, even if they don't actually get hurt because of it.

I disagree. The lapses have cost him because it prevents him from pitching later into games and perhaps, giving the offense time to score so he can qualify for a win. Going into this game, he pitched 29.2 innings over 5 games. That's not even averaging 6 inning a start. Today he didn't record an out in the 5th.

And in his 3 good outings, the ones you have refused to acknowledge and claim he's still melting down in, he's averaged 6.33 innings per start, to go with his 1.80 ERA, 1.38 WHIP, and 9.47 K/9. And again, what you're talking about isn't exclusive to Z, every pitcher ever has it happen to them.

I don't need to acknowledge them. His body of work speaks for itself. He has not been ace-like. I can turn the tables and say, why are you only looking at those 3 starts when overall he's been horrible? There's no doubt that he's been more bad than good this year. He's not my child; I don't need to say something positive to counterbalance the bad. In fact, those number are so good that it just magnifies how HORRIBLE he has been in his other starts.

Blueheart05 · April 30, 2006

I disagree. The lapses have cost him because it prevents him from pitching later into games and perhaps, giving the offense time to score so he can qualify for a win. Going into this game, he pitched 29.2 innings over 5 games. That's not even averaging 6 inning a start. Today he didn't record an out in the 5th.

finally it comes out

zambrano sucks cause he doesn't have any wins

Whatever, that has nothing to do with it. Wins are a team issue.

I'm glad people are happy with Z's overall success this season.

Edited April 30, 2006 by Blueheart05

badger1679666666 · April 30, 2006

Fine, even if he was on the edge coming into today's game. Look at his numbers now and tell me he's been good.
After seeing his stats after today's performance, as a whole he hasn't been good. You're right. But I still take issue with your statement that he hasn't done anything all year to deserve praise. Because he has.

So has Glendon Rusch. He pitched well in Pittsburgh and he pitched well for almost 5 innings in STL. Overall, both have not pitched well...

Oh yeah, I wasn't exaggerating. If you look back at every game Zambrano has pitched this year, he has melted down (for lack of a better phrase) in at least one inning. Granted, a couple of times he was able to get out of trouble with minimal damage but giving up home runs and then walking the next two batters, arguing with himself or others, and having no general control does not equal a good year thus far.
You really don't like Zambrano, do you?

That's ridiculous. I love Zambrano's game but he hasn't been on it. He's walking too many batters and not getting groundball outs. Why do you have to question whether I like the guy just because I'm not afraid to criticize him? It's like saying you can't like someone and be objective at the same time.

Your initial comments were about as FAR from objective as you can get. They were emotional and hyperbolic.

Your clarification comments (Z not pitching up to his standards, Z losing control/being inconsistent) are fair and objective.

Can't you see this?

No, because my comments were obviously in relation to his previous performances. I wouldn't be nearly as upset if I didn't have a high bar for the guy. He's a much better pitcher than he's shown.

I guess we'll just disagree on the definition of the words hyperbolic, exaggeration, fair and objective are.

I guess we will have to but I will say that his numbers certainly aren't representative of anyone who's pitched well overall. Serena also brought up a good point about Maddux. Few people were defending him last April with his 3 QS and inflated ERA. For some reason, this is different...

Nope, you still don't understand. No one minds the above statement. People had issues with the way you phrased your INITIAL criticism, not that there was criticism itself.

Thats' fine. This is a messageboard, we're not all here to agree. You are free to describe him in the most glowing or PC terms if you choose (or not).

Fair enough. And if you continue using inaccurate hyperbole I will continue to discuss that said hyperbole.

What is or isn't accurate is subjective.

Duh. Every opinion is subjective. Some are presented with an attempt towards objectivity. Good to know you don't subscribe to that philosophy though.

Transmogrified Tiger · April 30, 2006

I guess we will have to but I will say that his numbers certainly aren't representative of anyone who's pitched well overall. Serena also brought up a good point about Maddux. Few people were defending him last April with his 3 QS and inflated ERA. For some reason, this is different...

I don't recall many people saying that Maddux was melting down every game, or hadn't done anything to deserve praise last April.

No, they said he was old and a waste of money (not to mention pitching batting practice). Again, Zambrano has had at least one inning in every game this year where he's been his own worst enemy. You may not like my "melt down" term but that's what I call it.

Maddux was/is old, and questioning his contract is far from irrational. On the other hand, you are picking apart Zambrano, even when he's done well. By that definition every pitcher in the league is their own worst enemy consistently by failing to put failure behind them, even if they don't actually get hurt because of it.

I disagree. The lapses have cost him because it prevents him from pitching later into games and perhaps, giving the offense time to score so he can qualify for a win. Going into this game, he pitched 29.2 innings over 5 games. That's not even averaging 6 inning a start. Today he didn't record an out in the 5th.

And in his 3 good outings, the ones you have refused to acknowledge and claim he's still melting down in, he's averaged 6.33 innings per start, to go with his 1.80 ERA, 1.38 WHIP, and 9.47 K/9. And again, what you're talking about isn't exclusive to Z, every pitcher ever has it happen to them.

I don't need to acknowledge them. His body of work speaks for itself. He has not been ace-like. I can turn the tables and say, why are you only looking at those 3 starts when overall he's been horrible? There's no doubt that he's been more bad than good this year. He's not my child; I don't need to say something positive to counterbalance the bad. In fact, those number are so good that it just magnifies how HORRIBLE he has been in his other starts.

I'm not the one that has made definitive statements about him melting down in every start, or not doing anything deserving of praise.

Andy · April 30, 2006

Fine, even if he was on the edge coming into today's game. Look at his numbers now and tell me he's been good.
After seeing his stats after today's performance, as a whole he hasn't been good. You're right. But I still take issue with your statement that he hasn't done anything all year to deserve praise. Because he has.

So has Glendon Rusch. He pitched well in Pittsburgh and he pitched well for almost 5 innings in STL. Overall, both have not pitched well...

Oh yeah, I wasn't exaggerating. If you look back at every game Zambrano has pitched this year, he has melted down (for lack of a better phrase) in at least one inning. Granted, a couple of times he was able to get out of trouble with minimal damage but giving up home runs and then walking the next two batters, arguing with himself or others, and having no general control does not equal a good year thus far.
You really don't like Zambrano, do you?

That's ridiculous. I love Zambrano's game but he hasn't been on it. He's walking too many batters and not getting groundball outs. Why do you have to question whether I like the guy just because I'm not afraid to criticize him? It's like saying you can't like someone and be objective at the same time.

Your initial comments were about as FAR from objective as you can get. They were emotional and hyperbolic.

Your clarification comments (Z not pitching up to his standards, Z losing control/being inconsistent) are fair and objective.

Can't you see this?

No, because my comments were obviously in relation to his previous performances. I wouldn't be nearly as upset if I didn't have a high bar for the guy. He's a much better pitcher than he's shown.

I guess we'll just disagree on the definition of the words hyperbolic, exaggeration, fair and objective are.

I guess we will have to but I will say that his numbers certainly aren't representative of anyone who's pitched well overall. Serena also brought up a good point about Maddux. Few people were defending him last April with his 3 QS and inflated ERA. For some reason, this is different...

Nope, you still don't understand. No one minds the above statement. People had issues with the way you phrased your INITIAL criticism, not that there was criticism itself.

Thats' fine. This is a messageboard, we're not all here to agree. You are free to describe him in the most glowing or PC terms if you choose (or not).

Fair enough. And if you continue using inaccurate hyperbole I will continue to discuss that said hyperbole.

What is or isn't accurate is subjective.

I wonder how tall I can make these quote tags

Blueheart05 · April 30, 2006

Fine, even if he was on the edge coming into today's game. Look at his numbers now and tell me he's been good.
After seeing his stats after today's performance, as a whole he hasn't been good. You're right. But I still take issue with your statement that he hasn't done anything all year to deserve praise. Because he has.

So has Glendon Rusch. He pitched well in Pittsburgh and he pitched well for almost 5 innings in STL. Overall, both have not pitched well...

Oh yeah, I wasn't exaggerating. If you look back at every game Zambrano has pitched this year, he has melted down (for lack of a better phrase) in at least one inning. Granted, a couple of times he was able to get out of trouble with minimal damage but giving up home runs and then walking the next two batters, arguing with himself or others, and having no general control does not equal a good year thus far.
You really don't like Zambrano, do you?

That's ridiculous. I love Zambrano's game but he hasn't been on it. He's walking too many batters and not getting groundball outs. Why do you have to question whether I like the guy just because I'm not afraid to criticize him? It's like saying you can't like someone and be objective at the same time.

Your initial comments were about as FAR from objective as you can get. They were emotional and hyperbolic.

Your clarification comments (Z not pitching up to his standards, Z losing control/being inconsistent) are fair and objective.

Can't you see this?

No, because my comments were obviously in relation to his previous performances. I wouldn't be nearly as upset if I didn't have a high bar for the guy. He's a much better pitcher than he's shown.

I guess we'll just disagree on the definition of the words hyperbolic, exaggeration, fair and objective are.

I guess we will have to but I will say that his numbers certainly aren't representative of anyone who's pitched well overall. Serena also brought up a good point about Maddux. Few people were defending him last April with his 3 QS and inflated ERA. For some reason, this is different...

Nope, you still don't understand. No one minds the above statement. People had issues with the way you phrased your INITIAL criticism, not that there was criticism itself.

Thats' fine. This is a messageboard, we're not all here to agree. You are free to describe him in the most glowing or PC terms if you choose (or not).

Fair enough. And if you continue using inaccurate hyperbole I will continue to discuss that said hyperbole.

What is or isn't accurate is subjective.

Duh. Every opinion is subjective. Some are presented with an attempt towards objectivity. Good to know you don't subscribe to that philosophy though.

First of all, leave the personal attacks for face to face conversations. Secondly, you and I don't have to agree. I don't know why you are taking it personally but I'm not going to worry about it either.

CaliforniaRaisin · April 30, 2006

I guess we will have to but I will say that his numbers certainly aren't representative of anyone who's pitched well overall. Serena also brought up a good point about Maddux. Few people were defending him last April with his 3 QS and inflated ERA. For some reason, this is different...

I don't recall many people saying that Maddux was melting down every game, or hadn't done anything to deserve praise last April.

No, they said he was old and a waste of money (not to mention pitching batting practice). Again, Zambrano has had at least one inning in every game this year where he's been his own worst enemy. You may not like my "melt down" term but that's what I call it.

Maddux was/is old, and questioning his contract is far from irrational. On the other hand, you are picking apart Zambrano, even when he's done well. By that definition every pitcher in the league is their own worst enemy consistently by failing to put failure behind them, even if they don't actually get hurt because of it.

I disagree. The lapses have cost him because it prevents him from pitching later into games and perhaps, giving the offense time to score so he can qualify for a win. Going into this game, he pitched 29.2 innings over 5 games. That's not even averaging 6 inning a start. Today he didn't record an out in the 5th.

And in his 3 good outings, the ones you have refused to acknowledge and claim he's still melting down in, he's averaged 6.33 innings per start, to go with his 1.80 ERA, 1.38 WHIP, and 9.47 K/9. And again, what you're talking about isn't exclusive to Z, every pitcher ever has it happen to them.

I don't need to acknowledge them. His body of work speaks for itself. He has not been ace-like. I can turn the tables and say, why are you only looking at those 3 starts when overall he's been horrible? There's no doubt that he's been more bad than good this year. He's not my child; I don't need to say something positive to counterbalance the bad. In fact, those number are so good that it just magnifies how HORRIBLE he has been in his other starts.

That's the only way you can say he has done nothing to deserve praise.

You really can't tell that what you said previously is far, far different from what you're saying now?

badger1679666666 · April 30, 2006

First of all, leave the personal attacks for face to face conversations. Secondly, you and I don't have to agree. I don't know why you are taking it personally but I'm not going to worry about it either.

I'm not taking anything personally. It's clear you don't subscribe to the philosophy of objectivity. I'm not crying over your attacks of Z. Nor am I taking them personally.

And If that's a personal attack you need get some tougher skin. There was no attack of any kind in that post. Merely my belief that I'm glad to know you don't want to be objective when talking about Z.

CaliforniaRaisin · April 30, 2006

Alrighty, let's drop the subject then.

NorthsideAvenger · April 30, 2006

The Cubs before Lee's injury:

7-4

5.72 offensively per game

4.63 pitching per game

The Cubs since Lee left the field with the wrist injury:

6-6

3.58 offensively per game

5.08 pitching per game

After watching the Cubs give up 25 runs in two games, and counter that with 2 RUNS. Baker needs to lay into them. But wait....since Baker needs to keep his "player's manager" persona in full force, I doubt Baker will do anything. This team clearly needs a SPARK.

Blueheart05 · April 30, 2006

First of all, leave the personal attacks for face to face conversations. Secondly, you and I don't have to agree. I don't know why you are taking it personally but I'm not going to worry about it either.

I'm not taking anything personally. It's clear you don't subscribe to the philosophy of objectivity. I'm not crying over your attacks of Z. Nor am I taking them personally.

And If that's a personal attack you need get some tougher skin. There was no attack of any kind in that post. Merely my belief that I'm glad to know you don't want to be objective when talking about Z.

Duh. Every opinion is subjective. Some are presented with an attempt towards objectivity. Good to know you don't subscribe to that philosophy though.

Yeah, I guess this wasn't personal.

badger1679666666 · April 30, 2006

First of all, leave the personal attacks for face to face conversations. Secondly, you and I don't have to agree. I don't know why you are taking it personally but I'm not going to worry about it either.

I'm not taking anything personally. It's clear you don't subscribe to the philosophy of objectivity. I'm not crying over your attacks of Z. Nor am I taking them personally.

And If that's a personal attack you need get some tougher skin. There was no attack of any kind in that post. Merely my belief that I'm glad to know you don't want to be objective when talking about Z.

Duh. Every opinion is subjective. Some are presented with an attempt towards objectivity. Good to know you don't subscribe to that philosophy though.

Yeah, I guess this wasn't personal.

It wasn't. Let it go.

CaliforniaRaisin · April 30, 2006

First of all, leave the personal attacks for face to face conversations. Secondly, you and I don't have to agree. I don't know why you are taking it personally but I'm not going to worry about it either.

I'm not taking anything personally. It's clear you don't subscribe to the philosophy of objectivity. I'm not crying over your attacks of Z. Nor am I taking them personally.

And If that's a personal attack you need get some tougher skin. There was no attack of any kind in that post. Merely my belief that I'm glad to know you don't want to be objective when talking about Z.

Duh. Every opinion is subjective. Some are presented with an attempt towards objectivity. Good to know you don't subscribe to that philosophy though.

Yeah, I guess this wasn't personal.

It wasn't. Let it go.

Alrighty, let's drop the subject then.

Blueheart05 · April 30, 2006

First of all, leave the personal attacks for face to face conversations. Secondly, you and I don't have to agree. I don't know why you are taking it personally but I'm not going to worry about it either.

I'm not taking anything personally. It's clear you don't subscribe to the philosophy of objectivity. I'm not crying over your attacks of Z. Nor am I taking them personally.

And If that's a personal attack you need get some tougher skin. There was no attack of any kind in that post. Merely my belief that I'm glad to know you don't want to be objective when talking about Z.

Duh. Every opinion is subjective. Some are presented with an attempt towards objectivity. Good to know you don't subscribe to that philosophy though.

Yeah, I guess this wasn't personal.

It wasn't. Let it go.

I was debating a player's performance and not talking about an individual poster's actions. You're the one who called me out for not being "objective" simply because we had a difference of opinion. "It" was never an issue with me.

Blueheart05 · April 30, 2006

First of all, leave the personal attacks for face to face conversations. Secondly, you and I don't have to agree. I don't know why you are taking it personally but I'm not going to worry about it either.

I'm not taking anything personally. It's clear you don't subscribe to the philosophy of objectivity. I'm not crying over your attacks of Z. Nor am I taking them personally.

And If that's a personal attack you need get some tougher skin. There was no attack of any kind in that post. Merely my belief that I'm glad to know you don't want to be objective when talking about Z.

Duh. Every opinion is subjective. Some are presented with an attempt towards objectivity. Good to know you don't subscribe to that philosophy though.

Yeah, I guess this wasn't personal.

It wasn't. Let it go.

Alrighty, let's drop the subject then.

I didn't see your post.

badger1679666666 · April 30, 2006

First of all, leave the personal attacks for face to face conversations. Secondly, you and I don't have to agree. I don't know why you are taking it personally but I'm not going to worry about it either.

I'm not taking anything personally. It's clear you don't subscribe to the philosophy of objectivity. I'm not crying over your attacks of Z. Nor am I taking them personally.

And If that's a personal attack you need get some tougher skin. There was no attack of any kind in that post. Merely my belief that I'm glad to know you don't want to be objective when talking about Z.

Duh. Every opinion is subjective. Some are presented with an attempt towards objectivity. Good to know you don't subscribe to that philosophy though.

Yeah, I guess this wasn't personal.

It wasn't. Let it go.

I was debating a player's performance and not talking about an individual poster's actions. You're the one who called me out for not being "objective" simply because we had a difference of opinion. "It" was never an issue with me.

You can continue to be disingenous. But have fun talking to yourself.

CaliforniaRaisin · April 30, 2006

First of all, leave the personal attacks for face to face conversations. Secondly, you and I don't have to agree. I don't know why you are taking it personally but I'm not going to worry about it either.

I'm not taking anything personally. It's clear you don't subscribe to the philosophy of objectivity. I'm not crying over your attacks of Z. Nor am I taking them personally.

And If that's a personal attack you need get some tougher skin. There was no attack of any kind in that post. Merely my belief that I'm glad to know you don't want to be objective when talking about Z.

Duh. Every opinion is subjective. Some are presented with an attempt towards objectivity. Good to know you don't subscribe to that philosophy though.

Yeah, I guess this wasn't personal.

It wasn't. Let it go.

I was debating a player's performance and not talking about an individual poster's actions. You're the one who called me out for not being "objective" simply because we had a difference of opinion. "It" was never an issue with me.

You can continue to be disingenous. But have fun talking to yourself.

This is your final warning to drop the subject. Please don't call other posters "disingeneous."

Shavo · April 30, 2006

The Cubs before Lee's injury:

7-4

5.72 offensively per game
4.63 pitching per game

The Cubs since Lee left the field with the wrist injury:

6-6

3.58 offensively per game
5.08 pitching per game

After watching the Cubs give up 25 runs in two games, and counter that with 2 RUNS. Baker needs to lay into them. But wait....since Baker needs to keep his "player's manager" persona in full force, I doubt Baker will do anything. This team clearly needs a SPARK.

They don't need a spark. There not a very good team. You could argue that Prior and Lee are the two best players on the team. Take Carp and Poohole off the Cards ... they suck. Sheets and Lee off the Brewers ... they suck. Oswalt and Ensberg/Berkman off the Astros ... they suck.

THIS is why we needed a bat in the off season. This team needs a face lift if anything.

EastonBlues22 · April 30, 2006

I wouldn't say the Cubs suck (and I'm even a Cards fan, heh). They're three games over .500 in the hottest division in baseball without two key starters, their best hitter, and with three other key members of the lineup underachieving (pierre, aram, jones).

Three games over .500 is nothing to brag about, but considering the circumstances, it's nothing to go crazy about either. The Cubs best bet is to float around .500 until people start getting healthy, then hope they have enough to make a run from there.

I think that's an entirely plausible scenario...I fully expect the Cubs to make a good push for a playoff spot before it's all said and done. Two bad games isn't the end of the world.

baseball7897 · April 30, 2006

A loss is a loss, but im not going to try and hide the fact the cubs starters need to pitch more than 5 innings. Their bullpen will be tired out come September with this rate. Zambrano needs to stop acting like he is above everyone else and pitch the way he is capable. Bottom line the cubs may need to bring back this guy if the pen has some dead arms.

http://quinnell.us/sports/mlb/best/images/rickaguilera.jpg

Edited April 30, 2006 by baseball7897

Fred Hornkohl · April 30, 2006

The Cubs before Lee's injury:

7-4

5.72 offensively per game
4.63 pitching per game

The Cubs since Lee left the field with the wrist injury:

6-6

3.58 offensively per game
5.08 pitching per game

After watching the Cubs give up 25 runs in two games, and counter that with 2 RUNS. Baker needs to lay into them. But wait....since Baker needs to keep his "player's manager" persona in full force, I doubt Baker will do anything. This team clearly needs a SPARK.

They don't need a spark. There not a very good team. You could argue that Prior and Lee are the two best players on the team. Take Carp and Poohole off the Cards ... they suck. Sheets and Lee off the Brewers ... they suck. Oswalt and Ensberg/Berkman off the Astros ... they suck.

THIS is why we needed a bat in the off season. This team needs a face lift if anything.

Just to set the record straight a little bit...... Lee was injured in the game on Wed 19 April in Los Angeles. The CUBS record, including that game on the 19th was 9-5.

The CUBS were scoring 5.43 R/G while allowing 4.15

04/03 - 04/19      AB    R    H   2b   3b   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
CUBS w/Lee        480   76  134   23    4   14  207   68   35   85  0.279  0.326  0.431  0.758

04/03 - 04/19        IP    H    R   ER   BB    K   HR  BB/9   K/9  HR/9  WHIP   ERA
CUBS              123.7   95   58   51   60   94   21  4.37  6.84  1.53  1.25  3.71

Since Lee left the lineup, the CUBS have played 9 games, going 4-5. During this stretch the CUBS have scored 3.67 R/G while allowing the opposition to score 6.00 R/G

04/21 - 04/30      AB    R    H   2b   3b   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
CUBS w/o Lee      278   33   60   12    2    7   97   32   30   44  0.216  0.297  0.349  0.646

04/21 - 04/30        IP    H    R   ER   BB    K   HR  BB/9   K/9  HR/9  WHIP   ERA
CUBS               70.0   80   54   45   45   79   12  5.79 10.16  1.54  1.79  5.79

Any way you slice it, it looks pretty grim.

Edited April 30, 2006 by Fred Hornkohl

erik316wttn · April 30, 2006

I don't see how Lee's absence could affect the pitching staff that much.

Fred Hornkohl · April 30, 2006

I don't see how Lee's absence could affect the pitching staff that much.

I don't know that anyone has made that assertion, have they ?

CubinNY · April 30, 2006

I don't see how Lee's absence could affect the pitching staff that much.

The runs given up are bad, but the runs scored are worse.

This is the exact reason why Hendry should have gotten a bat for outfield and the bench.

The Cubs MO have been similar for going on three years now. When they go into losing streaks (not that two games is a streak) the reason why is b/c they don't score.

4/30 Cubs (Big Z) vs Beermakers (Capuano) 1 pm WGN

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