Mike Kiley Article

ThePenguin11 · January 12, 2006

http://www.suntimes.com/output/cubs/cst-spt-kiley12.html

I can't believe this article. Baker should just get a free pass because of 2003? He's done nothing to merit an extension. He's gotten progressively worse and should be forced to earn his extension this year. Should the Cubs be afraid that some team is going to snatch him up if we don't 'lock him up' right now? Don't be ridiculous. The Devil Rays aren't that foolish. Mike Kiley is officially the new Cubs trumpeter. I'd love to have seen Bruce's reaction to this. Guys like Bruce, Rozner and Mariotti are the only people to see through Baker. Or at least they're not afraid to say he's been a failure.

EDIT: I can't tell if he's being sarcastic or not. He seems to be laying out this gameplan for the Cubs to get away with resigning Baker and Hendry even though they haven't done anything in the last year to deserve it. The tone seems to change from the beginning to the end of this article. However Kiley doesn't question the motive behind resigning either, only to say that Cubs fans would probably contend that they have underachieved.

The question is: Could they be in better hands with someone else who could manage a pitching staff, correctly configure a lineup card and manage egos without letting the inmates run the asylum????????

Edited January 12, 2006 by ThePenguin11

Cubzfan64 · January 12, 2006

The above paragraph is the one that annoys me the most - as if "almost" achieving something 3 years ago should somehow negate the past 2 season's failures.

Does he think Cub fans are so desparate for something to cheer about that we should be awed, thrilled and satisfied to have ALMOST achieved something several years ago??? For me, the answer to that is a resounding NO!

USSoccer · January 12, 2006

I remember reading about the great job Hendry/Baker did in Almost Magazine. :roll:

J.R. · January 12, 2006

The Chicago sports press is, by and large, an absolute disaster. Baker and this organization's ridiculous fascination with Neifi Perez should be taken to task in print every day.

Billy_Buck · January 12, 2006

Argh. I don't normally care what the newspapers print, but this kind of thing annoys me. Not sure if this is Kiley's argument, but a common meme in the media and elsewhere is that Cubs fans are too hard on Baker (and Hendry), that we have been spoiled by the near-miss in '03 and can't give the guys running the team a break. Many of the same also contend that the Cubs are overly romanticized, and fans couldn't care less how the team performs.

I rarely read Kiley, so I don't know if he is guilty of arguing out of both sides of his mouth, but there are plenty that do. Why anyone, least of all a Sun-Times guy, would be snide about the calls for accountability is beyond me.

BigbadB · January 12, 2006

"What have you done for me lately"

--Janet Jackson

I loved 2003. I will always love 2003. It's 2006 now.

Gunned · January 12, 2006

I can't believe he actually wrote that Baker "just wants to be loved."

What is he, a puppy?

Come to think of it, I had a puppy a few years ago. And the turds he left on the rug looked better than some of Dusty's lineups.

Ram1380 · January 12, 2006

Atleast your puppy learned from his past mistakes(i hope :) )

With some of the things Baker has done and not done since he got here, makes me wonder how he keeps himself from crappin' on the floor.

daske17 · January 12, 2006

Does this mean we can smack Dusty on the nose with a newspaper when he does something wrong?

No Neifi in the lineup, bad Dusty!

Ram1380 · January 12, 2006

I'd like to volunteer to "rub his noes in it".

Maybe a shock collar would work better?

Bruce Miles · January 12, 2006

Only if it's the right newspaper!

BigbadB · January 12, 2006

LOL! Well done! =D>

Chris · January 12, 2006

^

What he said

Banedon · January 12, 2006

That just leaves one to wonder what could possibly be the right one??? So many choices... :P

CuseCubFan69 · January 12, 2006

Win the World Series and then you'll be "loved".

dalgreen · January 12, 2006

I'm one of the few who viewed 2003 as the Astros losing the NL Central more than the Cubs winning it. The same thing goes in 2004 -- the Cubs losing the wild-card more than Houston winning it. I've said it before, but I think in certain aspects we might have been better off if Houston had won the division in 2003. Anyway, it makes no sense to let 5 outs more than two years ago dictate job evaluation. Hell, Dallas Green (the best GM in my lifetime) didn't let being 12 outs from a World Series in 1984 affect his decision to fire Jim Frey in 1986. By the way, hasn't MacPhail's "5-year plan" expired?

Coach C · January 12, 2006

Nope. Just like King Carl Peterson's 5 year plan. It just carries over to Year 17 in Kansas City.

atcfootball · January 13, 2006

My first post here! Just found the site and I'm happy to join you guys, thanks for having me!

As I'm sure I don't agree with everything that others say, I'm sure that everyone will not agree with what I say. I do not wish to argue a point or try to change someones mind, I don't think you can change mine, so i don't want to change yours!

Let me start with this, I felt as far back as 1997 that Dusty Baker was the best manager in baseball! To me I never could understand how he would win year in and year out with teams in SF that had little starting pitching and would seem to have even less hitting. It goes without saying I was beside myself when he came to the Cubs and I'm still happy he works for this team!

I don't always agree with every move Baker makes, however I will never second guess it! I know that the move I thought would work, will not always work also and I don't have over 40 years of baseball and 10+ years of managing in the Majors to prove I'm right like he does!

I'm not blind to the fact that Baker makes mistakes! I'm also not blind to the fact that since 1944 he has the highest winning % of any Cubs manager (1944 is the year before we went to the WS for the last time, I used that as my yard stick for his winning %, it could be since 1930?)!

I have a question, is it the majority that feels Baker should be fired or the minority? From all the reading I do it seems like the majority! It seems like every move Baker makes on the field the "majority" don't agree with it!

If the majority don't want Baker! (highest winning % since 1945 Cubs managers - 19 ALL TIME in winning % among managers with 1,000 wins)

What do they want?

Steve Stone?

Ryne Sandberg?

Mark Grace?

I think I will take my chance with Baker on this one!

I will even go one step more and let you know who I would not mind seeing over Baker!

- Davy Johnson

- Whitey Herzog

- Bobby Cox

- Wally Backman (so I even give you one with 0 MLB games under his belt).

I don't think Johnson or Herzog is looking for a job, Cox has one! With Backman's history I don't think we will beat down his door anytime soon!

You don't agree with Baker, so what?

Prove to me how the moves you would have made in a game would have worked and won the game for us?

Prove to me how you think Baker don't use his pitchers correclty?

Prove to me why playing a rookie is better then playing a vet?

Prove to me when and why Baker has not given a good rookie a shot at playing?

I have proven how Baker is a winner as a manager!

- 19 ALL TIME in WINNING (1,000 victories) %....

- Highest total WINNING % of any Cub manager since 1944.

I'm sorry guys, Baker is who I have to go with until someone gives me a better option then Steve Stone and Mark Grace!

I think we could all agree any of us could go up and talk about baseball on a TV/Radio, I think we could also all agree that don't make us good managers or GM's!

Just my thoughts!

Nice First Post! :):) You guys have a great day!

OH

Cub Managers!

Dusty Baker .527

Jim Frey .519

Don Zimmer .507

Leo Durocher .504

Charlie Grimm .502

Jim Lefebvre .500

Herman Franks .497

Whitey Lockman .492

Jim Essian .484

Gene Michael .480

Jim Riggleman .472

Don Baylor .459

Lou Klein .453

Bob Scheffing .450

Jim Marshall .449

El Tappe .449

Lee Elia .446

Phil Cavarretta .442

Tom Trebelhorn .434

Bob Kennedy .434

Lou Boudreau .425

Stan Hack .424

Bruce Kimm .423

Frankie Frisch .418

Charlie Metro .384

Joey Amalfitano .366

(NOTE: I did not add managers that had less then 20 games)!

1000K Win Club

Joe McCarthy .615

Frank Selee .598

Billy Southworth .597

John McGraw .586

Al Lopez .584

Earl Weaver .583

Harry Wright .581

Cap Anson .578

Fred Clarke .576

Bobby Cox .567

Davey Johnson .564

Steve O'Neill .559

Walt Alston .558

Miller Huggins .555

Billy Martin .553

Charlie Grimm .547

Sparky Anderson .545

Hughie Jennings .543

Dusty Baker .541

Danny Murtaugh .540

Joe Cronin .540

Leo Durocher .540

Tony LaRussa .534

Whitey Herzog .532

Ned Hanlon .530

Joe Torre .527

Tommy Lasorda .526

Bill McKechnie .524

Lou Piniella .523

Red Schoendienst .522

Clark Griffith .522

Dick Williams .520

Frankie Frisch .514

Ralph Houk .514

Bobby Valentine .510

Chuck Dressen .509

Mike Hargrove .508

Casey Stengel .508

Wilbert Robinson .500

Bucky Harris .493

Connie Mack .486

Gene Mauch .483

Jimmy Dykes .477

Chuck Tanner .495

Bill Rigney .484

John McNamara .484

Lou Boudreau .487

Tom Kelly .478

Art Howe .498

Jim Leyland .486

Jim Fregosi .484

Transmogrified Tiger · January 13, 2006

Welcome!

I want Baker fired. Here's a short list of what he does wrong:

- Leaves starting pitchers in for too long, with regards to pitch counts and visible signs of tiring.

-Mismanagement of the bullpen. Dogged persistence to R/L matchups even when vast evidence proves other courses of action would be better(e.g. Taking Farnsworth out for Remlinger to face a left handed batter). Also, overworking arms and ignoring others. Examples of this include Fox blowing out his arm, Farnsworth and Wuertz in the first half of the past few years, while Wellemeyer, Hill, Mitre, etc. go weeks without an appearance.

-Maddening love for veteran players. Despite players proving their crappiness time and time again, Baker continues to dole out playing time to crummy veterans in lieu of rookies who are very likely to be as good or better. Macias, Harris, Hollandsworth, Karros, Neifi are all living proof of this.

- Poor Lineup construction, which reflects on abhorrent philosophical views. Refusal to acknowledge that OBP is important, especially at the top of the order("it's called hitting, not walking").

- Failure to take responsibility for his own actions. Baker has never taken responsibility for the failures of the team, yet whenever things go right(i.e. a Dubois or Murton succeeding in limited playing time), it is according to his grand design.

There's probably a couple others that I'm missing, but that's a good start.

vance_the_cubs_fan · January 13, 2006

Here is my list that I would want as the next Cubs manager.

1. Fredi Gonzalez

2. Davey Johnson

3. Ned Yost

4. Larry Dierker

USSoccer · January 13, 2006

Welcome to the forum!

Now that you feel welcome, let me say this: Dusty Baker is the worst in-game manager I have ever seen in my life of watching baseball. He is among the worst in-game strategists of any coach in any pro sports capacity I've ever seen.

In 2003, he managed to have Kerry Wood and Mark Prior throw the most pitches of any pitcher in baseball. Wood is no suprise (even though he allowed him to throw 138 pitches in a 7 inning effort May of that year), but he managed to overwork Prior despite Prior having missed an entire month that season! He is responsible to the overuse of Kyle Farnsworth and Michael Wuertz to the point that both were fried by any given July. His decision to throw Chad Fox 3 days in a row culminated in a mopup, blowout appearance that also blew out Fox's elbow. His decision to let Prior throw 35 extra pitches in Game 2 NLCS contributed to Prior being gassed by the 7th inning of Game 6, NLCS. His cluelessness on how to handle a tiring pitcher resulted in a blown 3-0 lead, and a lost chance to advance.

He has no idea how to properly use the players given him. He misused Mike Remlinger criminally during Remmy's 2.5 years here. He routinely constructs lineups that drastically reduce the team's chances to win. Neifi Perez and Jose Macias hitting in the top 2 spots should never happen for a non AAA baseball team. Yet it did last season, quite frequently. Lenny Harris led off games in 2003. Think about that.

Given an opportunity, Baker will play an inferior player over a young player on the basis of the young player not having experience. Dubois, Murton, Cedeno, Choi...I can go on, but I don't really want to.

Finally, Baker's final saving grace, that he's a players manager, and players will want to come here and play, has largely been disproven the past 2 winters. Baker couldn't prevent an immensely talented 2004 Cub team form imploding, and has done nothing to attract impact players to want to come to Chicago.

Baker's winning % is the result of him having the best player in the game of baseball for a bunch of years in San Francisco, and him inheriting 3 incredibly talented SP's while in Chicago. If anything, Baker does more to reduce his teams' chances of winning through bad lineup decisions, bad bullpen management, the inability to handle starting pitchers, and a questionable ability to adapt to any sort of change.

He's a poor manager. His only motivational trick is "Us vs Them", and when that doesn't work he's out of luck. I hope he leads us to the World Series, and then retires to go fishing with Darren full time. I hope the Cubs win despite of him, and find a competent replacement as quickly as possible.

Larry Dierker or Fredi Gonzalez top my list.

Chris · January 13, 2006

Welcome to the forum!

ThePenguin11 · January 13, 2006

I'd quote ATCFootball but this post would be way too long for that.

Can I just say that your optimistic view of the Cubs and their manager (is not healthy). I feel like I've been robbed of my normal dose of cynicism for today, and it might be your fault. I'm sorry if your blind support for Dusty Baker doesn't allow you to rationally evaluate his success, or lack thereof.

I'm sorry if I've been harsh, I've just had it with this team. Dusty's had the opportunity of a lifetime and has coached some of the best rosters in Chicago Cubs history - only to misuse them. He lets the inmates run the asylum so his players seem to have less accountability than him. When he learns how to manage a pitching staff, fill out a lineup card (with an understanding of platoons and splits), can verbally define OBP and OPS, and stops using you as a human sheild - then, and only then - would I ever say that Dusty deserves an extension to his contract. A declining winning percentage every year for three years doesn't help either.

Once again, I'm sorry if I've been harsh, - , but this is a hot-button issue for me. I can't imagine one more season of failure. (I'm glad you've voiced your opinion). And you're absolutely entitled to it. I don't agree with it, but that's okay, life goes on.

EDIT: Paraphrased my comments out of courtesy to others.

The Voice of Reason · January 13, 2006

atcfootball - Not much to add to what has already been said regarding Dusty. However, I did want to point out that your avatar made me chuckle. It reminded me of the time I was at Hooters after a game and saw Hector inhale a plate of about 300 chicken wings in a matter of seconds while downing cerveza fria after cerveza fria.

atcfootball · January 13, 2006

All your points are well taken and I must say again, "I don't agree with every move that Baker makes"! I for one happen to agree with a few of the items pointed out to me!

I will start with....

Overuse of pitchers and bullpen....

- We used to have 4 man rotations as "not so long ago" as 1980's. Were any of them "great managers" of the 80's accused of abuse of the arms they had pitching on 3 days rest? **We can open whole other thread to talk about this topic**

- I'm sure we could all agree not every player is the same, correct? Example: Perez seemed to tire down the end of the season from playing everyday! Were as another player playing the same position would not have tired.

Why then because we hear that a pitcher has reached 100 pitches, he is done? I mean for example using pitchers: Maddux once he reaches about 85 pitches he is done! Zambrano, he could maybe last 150 (if he were allowed) and still be effective as a pitcher....

So why is this 100 pitch count the same for EVERY pitcher that has ever thrown a baseball the past 20 years? Where is the study on this?

Listen any coach will tell you to become a better hitter you have to hit in the cage! To be better in the field you have to take fly balls! Why with pitching do we say to become (or stay the same) you have to throw less?

All I'm saying is some how we have lost site of the of the fact that each player is different (pitchers also) and it is not abuse to ALL if they throw over 100 pitches in a game! To allow Maddux (at this point) to throw 100 is abuse! To allow Zambrano to throw OVER 100 is not abuse, it might make him stronger later!

What makes a person stronger? Repeated action! If lift weights you don't become stronger by lifting 10lbs 100 times,,,, every five days! You become stronger by lifting 10lbs, 100 times, then 110, then 120 and so on, every other day!

I just disagree with abuse of pitchers on Bakers part, because I don't agree with this 100 pitch count or 3 days in a row of pitching!

--- Over use of Farns and Wartz! Lets say he did over use them, what was his other options?

--- Miss use of Rem, What was his other options?

--- Perez or miss lineup,,,,, consider the lineups and players we have had,,, what were the better options and did he try them at any point in the seasons? What were the results when he did use them? Did he prove you right or wrong with the use of a lineup you would have wrote?

His in game actions and so on? As I said, I don't agree with everything!

But, who am I to question it? I have no proof and you don't either, that hitting (INSERT NAME) in that situation would have worked better then what Baker did!

If Baker is this poor of an in game manager HOW can he be so LUCKY to place 19th on the ALL TIME Winning % of managers all time?

I have seen guys with luck, but no one can be that lucky!!!!

I guess I don't get it,,,, how can only 18 other managers in the HISTORY of the game have a higher winning % then Baker if he is that bad??? I just don't get it!

I will try to read back later and reply! :)

Have a great day!

EDITED:::

Also

Perez... Hitting His top two production wise spots in the lineup!

2nd .283avg .310obp

7th .286avg .311obp

I don't like Perez hitting there either... But really what options did you like? It's not like this cubs team is packed full of OBP guys! Patterson as leadoff... I did not like it either! But speed was not a strong suite of this team!

I have seen it said Baker had a few of the Best Cubs teams in a long time!

Lets review that!

- Low OBP guys

- No Speed

- To many K guys

- Not enough D!

- Pitchers with a history of being hurt!

The Cubs teams I have seen looked good on paper! But if we are going to truly look at them and be honest and evaluate it's abilities lets look at everything, not just the HR and the STAR abilities of the pitchers! The hitters have to do more then hit HR's and the STAR pitchers have to be stars not DL players!

Edited January 13, 2006 by atcfootball

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