Mike Kiley Article

vance_the_cubs_fan · January 13, 2006

It's much easier to win with Barry Bonds in the line-up.

stitchface · January 13, 2006

All your points are well taken and I must say again, "I don't agree with every move that Baker makes"! I for one happen to agree with a few of the items pointed out to me!

I will start with....
Overuse of pitchers and bullpen....
- We used to have 4 man rotations as "not so long ago" as 1980's. Were any of them "great managers" of the 80's accused of abuse of the arms they had pitching on 3 days rest? **We can open whole other thread to talk about this topic**
- I'm sure we could all agree not every player is the same, correct? Example: Perez seemed to tire down the end of the season from playing everyday! Were as another player playing the same position would not have tired.
Why then because we hear that a pitcher has reached 100 pitches, he is done? I mean for example using pitchers: Maddux once he reaches about 85 pitches he is done! Zambrano, he could maybe last 150 (if he were allowed) and still be effective as a pitcher....
So why is this 100 pitch count the same for EVERY pitcher that has ever thrown a baseball the past 20 years? Where is the study on this?
Listen any coach will tell you to become a better hitter you have to hit in the cage! To be better in the field you have to take fly balls! Why with pitching do we say to become (or stay the same) you have to throw less?
All I'm saying is some how we have lost site of the of the fact that each player is different (pitchers also) and it is not abuse to ALL if they throw over 100 pitches in a game! To allow Maddux (at this point) to throw 100 is abuse! To allow Zambrano to throw OVER 100 is not abuse, it might make him stronger later!
What makes a person stronger? Repeated action! If lift weights you don't become stronger by lifting 10lbs 100 times,,,, every five days! You become stronger by lifting 10lbs, 100 times, then 110, then 120 and so on, every other day!
I just disagree with abuse of pitchers on Bakers part, because I don't agree with this 100 pitch count or 3 days in a row of pitching!
--- Over use of Farns and Wartz! Lets say he did over use them, what was his other options?
--- Miss use of Rem, What was his other options?
--- Perez or miss lineup,,,,, consider the lineups and players we have had,,, what were the better options and did he try them at any point in the seasons? What were the results when he did use them? Did he prove you right or wrong with the use of a lineup you would have wrote?

His in game actions and so on? As I said, I don't agree with everything!
But, who am I to question it? I have no proof and you don't either, that hitting (INSERT NAME) in that situation would have worked better then what Baker did!

If Baker is this poor of an in game manager HOW can he be so LUCKY to place 19th on the ALL TIME Winning % of managers all time?

I have seen guys with luck, but no one can be that lucky!!!!

I guess I don't get it,,,, how can only 18 other managers in the HISTORY of the game have a higher winning % then Baker if he is that bad??? I just don't get it!

I will try to read back later and reply! :)

Have a great day!

because the manager only controls maybe 2 or 3 wins a year. basically you are correct, dusty isn't the big proble, because his decisions are not the difference between 79 wins and the playoffs. he could be the difference between 88 wins and the playoffs though.

the pitcher abuse is quite evident in the injuries to wood and prior in 2004 and 2005 . can we prove direct correlation? no, but one thing is certain: the more strain you put on a pitcher's arm, the greater the risk for injury. its not how often they pitched, its how many pitches they threw - sometimes in games that were already decided. the truth is he was stuck with perez at SS until Cedeno came up. But why bat Perez in the top 2? Why continue to use Macias as a pinch-hitter when he has demonstrated for years that he is a lousy hitter? Why not play Cedeno when the team had been eliminated? Why the loyalty to Hollandsworth but not to Dubois? Frankly, I agree with you that the dusty problem is overstated. Nevertheless, he is a terrible manager.

atcfootball · January 13, 2006

It's much easier to win with Barry Bonds in the line-up.

It should have been much easier for the Cubs to win with Sosa (when he was as good if not better then Bonds or NEARLY THE SAME)!!

But the following managers could not do it!

Jim Lefebvre .500

Jim Riggleman .472

Don Baylor .459

Tom Trebelhorn .434

Bruce Kimm .423

stitchface · January 13, 2006

It's much easier to win with Barry Bonds in the line-up.

It should have been much easier for the Cubs to win with Sosa (when he was as good if not better then Bonds or NEARLY THE SAME)!!

But the following managers could not do it!
Jim Lefebvre .500
Jim Riggleman .472
Don Baylor .459
Tom Trebelhorn .434
Bruce Kimm .423

yes, and had prior and zambrano been there . . . they might have won even after 1998 (which was as good as any baker year).

atcfootball · January 13, 2006

It's much easier to win with Barry Bonds in the line-up.

It should have been much easier for the Cubs to win with Sosa (when he was as good if not better then Bonds or NEARLY THE SAME)!!

But the following managers could not do it!
Jim Lefebvre .500
Jim Riggleman .472
Don Baylor .459
Tom Trebelhorn .434
Bruce Kimm .423

yes, and had prior and zambrano been there . . . they might have won even after 1998 (which was as good as any baker year).

Prior and Zambrano are not in SF for Bonds, in fact he has never had the caliber of pitcher of either of them two!

So you are saying???

With Prior and Zambrano and Sosa (in his prime) any manager could with with them?

Okay, I agree! But that is not what we are talking about!

The point of winning with Bonds in the line up is easy!

okay!

I followed that up with, Sosa (what a few years ago) would have been just the hitter (with less walks) that Bonds is,,, that would be near the same I think! However Sosa could not make the above managers winners!

stitchface · January 13, 2006

It's much easier to win with Barry Bonds in the line-up.

It should have been much easier for the Cubs to win with Sosa (when he was as good if not better then Bonds or NEARLY THE SAME)!!

But the following managers could not do it!
Jim Lefebvre .500
Jim Riggleman .472
Don Baylor .459
Tom Trebelhorn .434
Bruce Kimm .423

yes, and had prior and zambrano been there . . . they might have won even after 1998 (which was as good as any baker year).

Prior and Zambrano are not in SF for Bonds, in fact he has never had the caliber of pitcher of either of them two!
So you are saying???
With Prior and Zambrano and Sosa (in his prime) any manager could with with them?
Okay, I agree! But that is not what we are talking about!

The point of winning with Bonds in the line up is easy!
okay!
I followed that up with, Sosa (what a few years ago) would have been just the hitter (with less walks) that Bonds is,,, that would be near the same I think! However Sosa could not make the above managers winners!

You're missing my point - the players win and lose games. The manager doesn't affect that very much, ie Dusty's teams win despite him not because of him.

atcfootball · January 13, 2006

The pitcher abuse is quite evident in the injuries to wood and prior in 2004 and 2005 . can we prove direct correlation? no, but one thing is certain: the more strain you put on a pitcher's arm, the greater the risk for injury. its not how often they pitched, its how many pitches they threw - sometimes in games that were already decided. the truth is he was stuck with perez at SS until Cedeno came up. But why bat Perez in the top 2? Why continue to use Macias as a pinch-hitter when he has demonstrated for years that he is a lousy hitter? Why not play Cedeno when the team had been eliminated? Why the loyalty to Hollandsworth but not to Dubois? Frankly, I agree with you that the dusty problem is overstated. Nevertheless, he is a terrible manager.

Probably will be my last post for tonight, I can see I'm not going to change minds... However that is not the point, it is to simply talk baseball! Cubs Baseball! Although I may not agree with everything posted, I think we all can agree that the end result of CUB WINS is what we all want!

Now I will start with "The pitcher abuse is quite evident in the injuries to wood and prior in 2004 and 2005"

I assume that the fact Wood had a Major arm operation in 1998 and had been on the DL 6 times prior to Baker even being hired as manager had no factor in this, abuse?

Prior,,,

DL

2002 - Prior placed on the 15-day disabled list with a strained hamstring.

2003 - Prior on 15-day DL with shoulder soreness. (ran into Alt 2nd Base)

2004 - Missed First two months due to inter elbow and achilles pains.

2005 - Missed first start of the year! Pitches until he gets hit in the arm with a hit baseball!

In 3 years with Baker as a Manager Prior has missed I will give you one month, due to an Unexplainable arm pain! The other month I'm giving to the achilles! I'm not going to say that the arm pain could have been a result of the achilles problem! To assume the achilles is the cause would be just as easy as it is to assume it was Baker the year prior.

Se we have a pitcher who has missed basically 2 months in 3 years due to a unexplainable arm pain! We have a pitcher with a who showed MAJOR ARM problems in his past, Prior to Baker! And we blame Baker for miss use!

I'm not going to buy it!

stitchface · January 13, 2006

The pitcher abuse is quite evident in the injuries to wood and prior in 2004 and 2005 . can we prove direct correlation? no, but one thing is certain: the more strain you put on a pitcher's arm, the greater the risk for injury. its not how often they pitched, its how many pitches they threw - sometimes in games that were already decided. the truth is he was stuck with perez at SS until Cedeno came up. But why bat Perez in the top 2? Why continue to use Macias as a pinch-hitter when he has demonstrated for years that he is a lousy hitter? Why not play Cedeno when the team had been eliminated? Why the loyalty to Hollandsworth but not to Dubois? Frankly, I agree with you that the dusty problem is overstated. Nevertheless, he is a terrible manager.

Probably will be my last post for tonight, I can see I'm not going to change minds... However that is not the point, it is to simply talk baseball! Cubs Baseball! Although I may not agree with everything posted, I think we all can agree that the end result of CUB WINS is what we all want!
Now I will start with "The pitcher abuse is quite evident in the injuries to wood and prior in 2004 and 2005"
I assume that the fact Wood had a Major arm operation in 1998 and had been on the DL 6 times prior to Baker even being hired as manager had no factor in this, abuse?
Prior,,,
DL
2002 - Prior placed on the 15-day disabled list with a strained hamstring.
2003 - Prior on 15-day DL with shoulder soreness. (ran into Alt 2nd Base)
2004 - Missed First two months due to inter elbow and achilles pains.
2005 - Missed first start of the year! Pitches until he gets hit in the arm with a hit baseball!
In 3 years with Baker as a Manager Prior has missed I will give you one month, due to an Unexplainable arm pain! The other month I'm giving to the achilles! I'm not going to say that the arm pain could have been a result of the achilles problem! To assume the achilles is the cause would be just as easy as it is to assume it was Baker the year prior.
Se we have a pitcher who has missed basically 2 months in 3 years due to a unexplainable arm pain! We have a pitcher with a who showed MAJOR ARM problems in his past, Prior to Baker! And we blame Baker for miss use!

I'm not going to buy it!

Your choice - to me its a matter of risk. the fact that wood had a history of injury problems is all the more reason to reduce his risk by overuse. aside from colliding with giles, prior's injuries all point to overuse.

welcome to the forum - be careful - its addictive! And I am willing to bet you do change your mind on some things. I sure have!

UK1679666180 · January 13, 2006

Pitching is a tearing down process, you never get stronger as the season progresses. You get stronger in the off-season and try to minimize wear and tear by avoiding pitching while fatigued and altering your mechanics b/c of the fatigue. Also, having an effective recovery program between starts is very important.

Throwing Z out there for 150 pitches is never going to make him stronger as the season wears on and his only damaging him later on. Once a pitcher gets around 115, they should look to get him out of there, if he is showing limited signs of fatigue and you have a depleted bullpen, you can bet the house and work him longer than need be.

But, you should NEVER leave a pitcher out there while he is fatigued, when Baker left Zambrano out there while he was dead tired and overthrowing simply to end a losing streak, it was suicide.

atcfootball · January 13, 2006

The pitcher abuse is quite evident in the injuries to wood and prior in 2004 and 2005 . can we prove direct correlation? no, but one thing is certain: the more strain you put on a pitcher's arm, the greater the risk for injury. its not how often they pitched, its how many pitches they threw - sometimes in games that were already decided. the truth is he was stuck with perez at SS until Cedeno came up. But why bat Perez in the top 2? Why continue to use Macias as a pinch-hitter when he has demonstrated for years that he is a lousy hitter? Why not play Cedeno when the team had been eliminated? Why the loyalty to Hollandsworth but not to Dubois? Frankly, I agree with you that the dusty problem is overstated. Nevertheless, he is a terrible manager.

Probably will be my last post for tonight, I can see I'm not going to change minds... However that is not the point, it is to simply talk baseball! Cubs Baseball! Although I may not agree with everything posted, I think we all can agree that the end result of CUB WINS is what we all want!
Now I will start with "The pitcher abuse is quite evident in the injuries to wood and prior in 2004 and 2005"
I assume that the fact Wood had a Major arm operation in 1998 and had been on the DL 6 times prior to Baker even being hired as manager had no factor in this, abuse?
Prior,,,
DL
2002 - Prior placed on the 15-day disabled list with a strained hamstring.
2003 - Prior on 15-day DL with shoulder soreness. (ran into Alt 2nd Base)
2004 - Missed First two months due to inter elbow and achilles pains.
2005 - Missed first start of the year! Pitches until he gets hit in the arm with a hit baseball!
In 3 years with Baker as a Manager Prior has missed I will give you one month, due to an Unexplainable arm pain! The other month I'm giving to the achilles! I'm not going to say that the arm pain could have been a result of the achilles problem! To assume the achilles is the cause would be just as easy as it is to assume it was Baker the year prior.
Se we have a pitcher who has missed basically 2 months in 3 years due to a unexplainable arm pain! We have a pitcher with a who showed MAJOR ARM problems in his past, Prior to Baker! And we blame Baker for miss use!

I'm not going to buy it!

Your choice - to me its a matter of risk. the fact that wood had a history of injury problems is all the more reason to reduce his risk by overuse. aside from colliding with giles, prior's injuries all point to overuse.

welcome to the forum - be careful - its addictive! And I am willing to bet you do change your mind on some things. I sure have!

All but Giles!

Prior pulled his hamstring due to over use?

Prior got hit in the elbow with a baseball due to over use?

Prior hurt his Achillies going into spring training due to over use?

Over use pitching? I'm trying to understand the logic here!

Because he was over used pitching, he pulled his hamstring running the bases?

Because he was pitching so much he was unable to move out of the way of a hit baseball?

Because of a rough winter of over use he hurt his achillies going into spring?

I'm sorry, I just don't follow!

Oh,,,, Cedeno and other Rookie issues, I will address them!

Lets use last season and Cedeno and Murton and Dubois for that matter!

Everyone wanted to play the rookies once we were out of it?

Okay, me also!

On August 19th we were 5 1/2 games behind the Astros and had just beat them 2 ot of 3! Were we out of it?

On August 29th we had lost something like 7 of 9 and were like 8 1/2 games out of it!

Wood was shut down!

Murton played nearly every game after that point!

Cedeno played in 3/4ths of the games from that point until he was hurt and did not play in the last 25 games!

Dubois, why was he not given a shot? Well, he moved right over to Clevland and got that shot didn't he? If the manager if Clevland knows not to play Dubois (he is not ready) then maybe we should thank Baker for not playing him!

It seems as Cub fans we have the memory of 10 minutes! We only want to remember some parts of things!

1989 who did we beat to win the division? Don't look it up!

1989 who was the player in the playoffs that killed us with something like a 700 avg?

See what I mean! We only seem to remember the bad things for some reason!!!

The point is, we just remember Cedeno did not play much the last 30 games of the year! We don't remember he was hurt and could not play!

We say "once were were out of it, why didn't Murton play", "wood pitching in meaningless games" despite the fact that when wood was pitching in games we were 5 1/2 games out of the WC!

Once we were 8 1/2 + games and out of it! Murton did play! Everyday! Check the game logs! Starting even before August 29th! Maybe around early to middle of August he started playing nearly every day!

You guys have a great night!

Go Cubs

USSoccer · January 13, 2006

We were 5.5 games out of the race, but we were behind 5 other teams, and not once last season were we able to consistent. The idea that Kerry Wood pitching in a setup role was somehow going to help us overcome the fact that we were mediocre is foolish and reckless.

rork73 · January 13, 2006

We were 5.5 games out of the race, but we were behind 5 other teams, and not once last season were we able to consistent. The idea that Kerry Wood pitching in a setup role was somehow going to help us overcome the fact that we were mediocre is foolish and reckless.

Amen.......also we got to post season because the Astros completely collapsed. Beating the Braves in postseason was with the help of great game by Wood in Atlanta and the hugely dissapointing Braves (Sheffield being Mr Choke #1).

I know, in sports people always win partially because the other guy fails and eventhough I found it to be a very exciting few months in 2003, I never felt like it was a team effort, but always a matter of a solid pitcher and one or two guys having a big night on offensive.

While Sosa had some great nights, I also remember him tring to go for the homer, while just a rbi single would have been enough.

Ever since Baker joined this team the inconsistent performance of the team has been very clear.

And everyone with a bit of common sense should be able to agree that Baker did a very risky thing by overusing Prior that much. No manager should put the health of a player on the line for short term gain......

UK1679666180 · January 13, 2006

1989 who did we beat to win the division? Don't look it up!

The Cards finished 2nd, the game that the Cubs won the division was in Montreal as Maddux outpitched El Presidente, the Cubs came off a tough loss and were able to get enough runs from Sandberg, Wrona, and D. Swith. That game featured a rookie Grissom and a very young Big Cat.

I just watched that game very recently. :)

RynoRules · January 13, 2006

We were 5.5 games out of the race, but we were behind 5 other teams, and not once last season were we able to consistent. The idea that Kerry Wood pitching in a setup role was somehow going to help us overcome the fact that we were mediocre is foolish and reckless.

Amen.......also we got to post season because the Astros completely collapsed. Beating the Braves in postseason was with the help of great game by Wood in Atlanta and the hugely dissapointing Braves (Sheffield being Mr Choke #1).
I know, in sports people always win partially because the other guy fails and eventhough I found it to be a very exciting few months in 2003, I never felt like it was a team effort, but always a matter of a solid pitcher and one or two guys having a big night on offensive.
While Sosa had some great nights, I also remember him tring to go for the homer, while just a rbi single would have been enough.

Ever since Baker joined this team the inconsistent performance of the team has been very clear.

And everyone with a bit of common sense should be able to agree that Baker did a very risky thing by overusing Prior that much. No manager should put the health of a player on the line for short term gain......

Look, I am as frsutrated as anyone with how 2004 ended (I was at Shea Stadium for all 3 games), how 2005 went, and how this offseason has gone. But to say that the Cubs lucked into the playoffs in 03' and only beat the Braves b/c the Braves stunk it up is nonsense. The Braves bowed out to several eventual WS teams during the 90s, and lost several WS's themselves. The Yanks beat em' twice; the Twins beat em'. You could argue that they played poorly in parts of those playoffs as well. Does this mean that the Yanks and Twins lucked into those titles?

If you want to kill Dusty and Jim for 04'-through the present, I'll understand. But for the love of Steve Trout, you don't haveto savage everything this org. has done, b/c it hasn't all been bad.

daske17 · January 13, 2006

Amen.......also we got to post season because the Astros completely collapsed. Beating the Braves in postseason was with the help of great game by Wood in Atlanta and the hugely dissapointing Braves (Sheffield being Mr Choke #1).

I know, in sports people always win partially because the other guy fails and eventhough I found it to be a very exciting few months in 2003, I never felt like it was a team effort, but always a matter of a solid pitcher and one or two guys having a big night on offensive.
While Sosa had some great nights, I also remember him tring to go for the homer, while just a rbi single would have been enough.

Ever since Baker joined this team the inconsistent performance of the team has been very clear.

And everyone with a bit of common sense should be able to agree that Baker did a very risky thing by overusing Prior that much. No manager should put the health of a player on the line for short term gain......

No offense to your opinion, but I'm tired of people saying that the only reason the Cubs won the division was because the Astros/Cardinals lost. We won because we had solid pitching and a decent offense. August and September, the Cubs stepped up their game and realized that they controlled their own destiny.

You look at things like Prior's performance after coming back from the Giles injury; Kenny Lofton seemingly on base all the time; the five-game series with the Cardinals. The Cubs played about as good a game of baseball as could have been possible.

Again, no disrepect to your opinion, but they might not have won 90+ games and clinched the division earlier, but they played dominant baseball to win in 2003. . . . then choked in the NLCS.

vance_the_cubs_fan · January 14, 2006

Oh,,,, Cedeno and other Rookie issues, I will address them!
Lets use last season and Cedeno and Murton and Dubois for that matter!
Everyone wanted to play the rookies once we were out of it?
Okay, me also!
On August 19th we were 5 1/2 games behind the Astros and had just beat them 2 ot of 3! Were we out of it?
On August 29th we had lost something like 7 of 9 and were like 8 1/2 games out of it!
Wood was shut down!
Murton played nearly every game after that point!

No, Murton didn't. Murton didn't begin to get everyday time until 9/12. From Septemeber 12- end of the season, Murton played every game, but it wasn't until then that Dusty gave him every day playing status.

Also, while Murton did begin to get a little more time around the 29th of August, Murton's playing time likely had more to do with that was the date Hollandsworth was traded rather than any liking of Murton or change in Dusty's philosophy. Once one of his toys was removed, he had fewer options to choose over Murton.

But don't think that suddenly after that losing streak that Dusty changed his colors; he didn't. In fact from 8/31-9/11, there were eleven games. Murton played in six of them, but in one only recieved one at bat. There was a stretch of three games in which he did not play at all. So in truth, it wasn't until September 12 that Murton became an everyday player. By that time, Dusty had little choice.

On August 29th we had lost something like 7 of 9 and were like 8 1/2 games out of it!
...Cedeno played in 3/4ths of the games from that point until he was hurt and did not play in the last 25 games!

I'm not sure how you arrive at three-fourths. Must be the new math. From 8/29 until he was hurt on 9/10, the Cubs played twelve games. Cedeno played in 6 of those. 6/12. I used my seventh grade math skills and reduced that fraction to 2/4, not 3/4. In fact it's just as close to 1/4 as it is 3/4. So, Cedeno played in 1/2 the games. But, a closer look reveals in one game he recieved zero PA. So, that really isn't much to Baker's credit either. Even when it was obvious to the world that the Cubs were out of contention, he didn't give much time to the players that are likely part of the future...instead giving AB's to Macias and Perez among others.

Nothing about Dusty's use of Murton or Cedeno suggest he has any intention of playing rookies.

What is more appalling about Murton's lack of playing time is that he was our best hitting outfielder last year and should have played every day since his call-up.

atcfootball · January 14, 2006

Point of matter!

So if a player has a history of being hurt we should reduce his playing time?

Why is this same approach not taken with position players? Should it be? By the idea you have then we should hold ARam out of about 40 games next season! He has show a "history" of being hurt the past few years!

In addition we should have held Nomar out of about 100 game last season (Before he got hurt), due to his history!

I'm not willing to do this with a position player who plays "everyday", why would I want to do it with a pitcher who pitches every 4 days!

Look I understand a player with an injury history "might" be treated a little different! But dose that make it right? Is that the way it should be? You are handcuffing yourself as a manager and a team if you have to treat one player different on a team! As a manager I HAVE to pull Wood after 100 pitches, if he has 4 innings of work or 8 innings! If he has 4 innings of work that screws with my bullpen the rest of the week! That forces ALL other starters to go a little longer then what they "normally" would go! Thus under "NORMAL" thinking would cause undue stress on my bullpen and the rest of my starters to make up for ONE players inablility to go a little longer!

(This pitch count thing and things like that are and should be totally different thread, :) )......

As far this stuff about the Astros or Cards basically "gave it" to the Cubs! The Braves rolled over and just went to sleep so the Cubs could go one more step... Okay! I buy that!!!! That is what happened, the Astros rolled over! The Cubs lucked there way into the playoffs in 03! Cool!

If you take that approach how can you follow that up with, the Cubs have underachived that last two years?!

You say in one argument that the Cubs basically should not have made the playoffs in 03 because of a poor job by Baker or for whatever reason!

Then you say, that Baker is a poor manager and should have won more games the past two seasons then he has and he has had the same team if not less of one! In 04 we won more games then 03! Yet Baker did a bad job as a manager despite the more wins and less production from RF and his top two starters in 03.

See I'm not understanding the two! First you say, they were lucky to get into the playoffs. Then you say the reason that they have not made it the next two years were due to Baker! How can that be?

All I'm saying is give credit when it is due! If you feel the Cubs were not a good team in 03 and should not have been the playoffs in 03. Then don't say that they should have been in 04 or 05 or that they underachieved them years! Because in them years they had more players hurt and not as much talent.

I have read countless times,,, Baker is not a good manager! Then the same person will say that a manager will only win or lose 2 or 3 games a year! Then the same person will say, Fire Baker!

In addition, everyone is so fast to say, Fire Baker!

However they offer NO FIX! No opinion of who the next manager should be!

Don't come to people with a problem, come to them with a fix!

Give me names! Who do you want to manage the team?

The arm chair GM's here seem to have the ability to say "Fire Baker" however they are unable to say, Hire NAME HERE!

Steve Stone?

Mark Grace?

My heart is with you! I would love to see Grace or Stone in the dougout! But my head says, you fire a guy with over 1K MLB victories, 1st all time winning % in the last 60 years for the Cubs, 19th ALL TIME winning % of managers with 1K MLB Victories!

For someone with ZERO MLB WINS AS A MANAGER!!!

Now you say Fire Baker and Hire,,,, Cox! I may jump on your boat if you have found a way to pry Cox away from the Braves!

Give me a better option, then Stone and Grace!

Someone was right about one thing, this board can be addictive! You all have a great night "EVEN BAKER HATERS",,,, I will try to reply more later!

Chow!

J.R. · January 14, 2006

Give me a better option, then Stone and Grace!

You

Me

Ronnie Woo

ANYONE would do better, as you really can't do any worse than Dusty Baker when it comes to purposely blunting a ballclub's talent, repeatedly choosing mediocrity over excellence and applying old school, irrational sandlot logic to critical situations.

stitchface · January 14, 2006

yes, things like pulled muscles and sore achilles can result from overuse. if you can't see that you don't understand physiology. getting hit on the elbow obviously is a fluke. to compare position players to pitchers is nothing short of ridiculous. the strain on a pitcher is many times greater than on a position player. to dispute your invalid point however, perhaps you should consider that Ramirez was told not to run hard the second half of the season, nomar was told not to explode out of the box. yes, every player coming off an injury must be careful with it. pitchers are under extraordinary strain and must be closely watched. your argument seems to be that wood had a long history leading to injury and that exonerates his usage by the cubs. sort of lacking in logic if you ask me.

vance_the_cubs_fan · January 14, 2006

In addition, everyone is so fast to say, Fire Baker!
However they offer NO FIX! No opinion of who the next manager should be!
Don't come to people with a problem, come to them with a fix!
Give me names! Who do you want to manage the team?
The arm chair GM's here seem to have the ability to say "Fire Baker" however they are unable to say, Hire NAME HERE!

Steve Stone?
Mark Grace?

My heart is with you! I would love to see Grace or Stone in the dougout! But my head says, you fire a guy with over 1K MLB victories, 1st all time winning % in the last 60 years for the Cubs, 19th ALL TIME winning % of managers with 1K MLB Victories!
For someone with ZERO MLB WINS AS A MANAGER!!!
Now you say Fire Baker and Hire,,,, Cox! I may jump on your boat if you have found a way to pry Cox away from the Braves!

Give me a better option, then Stone and Grace!

Someone was right about one thing, this board can be addictive! You all have a great night "EVEN BAKER HATERS",,,, I will try to reply more later!

Chow!

I've stated numerous times the list of managers I would take right now.

You want opinions on who the next manager should be? Here you are.

1. Fredi Gonzalez- 3b coach Atlanta Braves. He's paid his dues as a minor league manager and as a major league coach. He's cut his teeth in the best organization in baseball over the last 15 years. He'd be an excellent choice. Of course he doesn't have any major league wins, but all managers have to get their start somewhere. It's impossible to pry away Cox, so do the next best thing and get someone who's learned from him and is likely to follow in his methods and thought.

2. Dave Johnsons- You like Dusty's record...you should like Johnson's more. Dusty's winning percentage is 537. Johnson holds a 564. Only Cox is higher among people not in the grave.

Mike Kiley Article

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