Mike Kiley Article

[UK1679666180]

Right now, I'd probably take Maddux as well, based on his experience. Fast Forward Prior's career and if he maintains the same work ethic, which is likely the best on the Cubs right now (including Maddux) and give me Prior.

[atcfootball]

1. Dempster had reconstructive elbow surgery and he went 3 days straight, 6 times last season, once in 04. Williamson pitched in 4 of his first 7 games back, is this abuse? Why has no one pointed it out? So as a manager if you don’t have the ability to play a player when they are needed, how much are your hands tied? Why is this not brought up in arguments for or against Baker? Well his hands were tied because he could not bring in player X due to his surgery last year? This just is not a good argument in my opinion.

2. The point you make in point 2 is a good one and I agree with it.. Other then I don’t blame Baker on the offense problems, I blame no leadoff or second place hitter. Also I blame the ability of Cub players to draw walks! Every Cub fan in the world was pissed about Baylors use of Sac Bunts, giving up outs! Now every Cub fan in the world seems pissed about Bakers lack in using them! What is it going to be guys? In addition the point of the post at that time was not to show Baker as good or bad in them years! It was more geared to the people who say we won in 03 because of the Astros losing! But then say the Cubs should have been better in 04 and 05 but were not because of Baker.

3. See above reason for my reply! I’m not in any way saying that the team had more or less talent. What I’m saying is everyone wants to say 03 happened because the Astros lost! Then they want to turn that around and say Baker is the the reason they lost in 04 and 05. All I’m saying is give the guy a little credit for the good things and do find so many faults in everything that has happened since. We seem to want to give Baker NO CREDIT for 03 and all the Blame for 04 and 05 and that just is not the case.

4. I read the thread… Here are the other options I seen….

1. Fredi Gonzalez

2. Davey Johnson

3. Ned Yost

4. Larry Dierker

Did you post them names?

5. I Agree!

6. I have said I would take Johnson over Baker in a prior post in this thread! I would rather not have the Deirker that was ran out of Houston only to have Phil Garner come in and turn it around. I would not take the Rothschild that was ran out of Tampa. To be honest I don’t know much about Gonzalez! I would even give a chance to Wally Backman, I know he has LOTS of problems in his past! But, hey, I like the guy!

[UK1679666180]

6. I have said I would take Johnson over Baker in a prior post in this thread! I would rather not have the Deirker that was ran out of Houston only to have Phil Garner come in and turn it around. I would not take the Rothschild that was ran out of Tampa. To be honest I don’t know much about Gonzalez! I would even give a chance to Wally Backman, I know he has LOTS of problems in his past! But, hey, I like the guy!

 

Dierker was run out of town for consistently getting into the playoffs and getting knocked out by ATL. You know 4 division titles in 5 years with the Astros.

 

Williams replaced Dierker and then was fired. He was replaced by Garner.

[Chris]

I would even give a chance to Wally Backman, I know he has LOTS of problems in his past! But, hey, I like the guy!

 

I'm all about some Wallyball.

[stitchface]

williamson was godawful. if the team was trying to contend, which they must have been since wood was pitching, why was williamson in in key situations? Dempster was nursed back to health in 2004. In any case, you seem to completely ignore the fact that abuse has to do with fatiguing the arm during a game as much or more than how often one pitches.

[atcfootball]

6. I have said I would take Johnson over Baker in a prior post in this thread! I would rather not have the Deirker that was ran out of Houston only to have Phil Garner come in and turn it around. I would not take the Rothschild that was ran out of Tampa. To be honest I don’t know much about Gonzalez! I would even give a chance to Wally Backman, I know he has LOTS of problems in his past! But, hey, I like the guy!

 

Dierker was run out of town for consistently getting into the playoffs and getting knocked out by ATL. You know 4 division titles in 5 years with the Astros.

 

Williams replaced Dierker and then was fired. He was replaced by Garner.

 

Dierker was fired at for a reason! Then Williams came in and turned the whole thing around! Why not then just hire Williams, he did something Dierker could not do?

Williams was then fired the next season and replaced by Garner and the same thing happened for the Astros. They had the talent Garner and Williams proved it.

Dierker was not winning with the talent that is the reason he was fired.

[stitchface]

6. I have said I would take Johnson over Baker in a prior post in this thread! I would rather not have the Deirker that was ran out of Houston only to have Phil Garner come in and turn it around. I would not take the Rothschild that was ran out of Tampa. To be honest I don’t know much about Gonzalez! I would even give a chance to Wally Backman, I know he has LOTS of problems in his past! But, hey, I like the guy!

 

Dierker was run out of town for consistently getting into the playoffs and getting knocked out by ATL. You know 4 division titles in 5 years with the Astros.

 

Williams replaced Dierker and then was fired. He was replaced by Garner.

 

he won as much or more than williams or garner.

 

Dierker was fired at for a reason! Then Williams came in and turned the whole thing around! Why not then just hire Williams, he did something Dierker could not do?

Williams was then fired the next season and replaced by Garner and the same thing happened for the Astros. They had the talent Garner and Williams proved it.

Dierker was not winning with the talent that is the reason he was fired.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

6. I have said I would take Johnson over Baker in a prior post in this thread! I would rather not have the Deirker that was ran out of Houston only to have Phil Garner come in and turn it around. I would not take the Rothschild that was ran out of Tampa. To be honest I don’t know much about Gonzalez! I would even give a chance to Wally Backman, I know he has LOTS of problems in his past! But, hey, I like the guy!

 

Dierker wasn't replaced with Garner.

 

Dierker managed Houston for five seasons, posting the following winning percentages: 519, 630, 599, 444, 574) He had over 90 wins in 3 of his five seasons and led his team to the playoffs in 4 of the 5. That's pretty damn impressive. He was let go, and replaced with Jimy Williams because the Astros felt he couldn't take the team to the next level. (The Astros were ousted in the first round every year in the playoffs.) I feel this move was about the worst thing the Astros could have done. It shows that they have no understanding of the randomness that is the playoffs. They also had to replace Dierker with Jimy Williams who was simply a horrible manager. It was Williams that Garner replaced.

 

Dierker's record, as short as it is, is just as impressive, if not more so than Dusty's.

[stitchface]

Right now, I'd probably take Maddux as well, based on his experience. Fast Forward Prior's career and if he maintains the same work ethic, which is likely the best on the Cubs right now (including Maddux) and give me Prior.

 

I'm not sure. My biggest worry with maddux would be that youngsters wouldn't listen to him.

[UK1679666180]

Williams didn't do anything as manager, he was terrible. Williams didn't turn anything around, he made them worse.

 

Dierker won 4 division titles in his 5 years w/Houston.

 

The Astros during Dierker's tenure had less talent than the Cubs over the last 3 years and did more with them than Baker has w/the Cubs.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

6. I have said I would take Johnson over Baker in a prior post in this thread! I would rather not have the Deirker that was ran out of Houston only to have Phil Garner come in and turn it around. I would not take the Rothschild that was ran out of Tampa. To be honest I don’t know much about Gonzalez! I would even give a chance to Wally Backman, I know he has LOTS of problems in his past! But, hey, I like the guy!

 

Dierker was run out of town for consistently getting into the playoffs and getting knocked out by ATL. You know 4 division titles in 5 years with the Astros.

 

Williams replaced Dierker and then was fired. He was replaced by Garner.

 

Dierker was fired at for a reason! Then Williams came in and turned the whole thing around! Why not then just hire Williams, he did something Dierker could not do?

Williams was then fired the next season and replaced by Garner and the same thing happened for the Astros. They had the talent Garner and Williams proved it.

Dierker was not winning with the talent that is the reason he was fired.

 

See my above post. Dierker was far better than Williams and he only had one losing season. I don't see how you can assert Dierker wasn't winning. Do you bother to check these things before you make up stuff?

[UK1679666180]

Right now, I'd probably take Maddux as well, based on his experience. Fast Forward Prior's career and if he maintains the same work ethic, which is likely the best on the Cubs right now (including Maddux) and give me Prior.

 

I'm not sure. My biggest worry with maddux would be that youngsters wouldn't listen to him.

 

I think they'd listen to him and I think Maddux would make a good coach/manager. I just think if Prior cont's at his current rate and has the desire to get into coaching/front office, he'd the best one for the job. Of course, Greg would have to show the same desire as his older brother.

[stitchface]

they would make a good combination - the coach with all the talent and the coach with the command. hopefully prior gets back to being both this year.

[UK1679666180]

I think he will, I was concerned about him missing his spots and his 1/7 curve was had much less bite than before.

[stitchface]

Prior's command was awful last year. This is one of the items that makes me seriously wonder about Rothschild. What the heck happened to Prior? Do you think the injuries screwed up his mechanics?

[UK1679666180]

I think his elbow was 100% afterwards. He wasn't finishing his pitches in the same manner, though.

[stitchface]

I meant psychologically. The achilles probably messed with him too. I hate to say it but this team can win 90 if Wood and Prior are healthy. Those top three are the best in baseball (assuming no clemens and a normal pettitte).

[UK1679666180]

I think him not finishing the pitches was psychological. Same with Clement.

[UK1679666180]

If you want to see a pitcher spooked, Clement in the playoffs or late in the year, had another liner right at his head. After that, his glove was by his head about the same time his pivot foot landed.

[stitchface]

thats understandable. I really like matt clement as a person. I am still shocked he hasn't had TJS yet.

[UK1679666180]

So did I, I still miss him. His back will go out before the elbow, his delivery is more geared towards shoulder problems than elbow..

[atcfootball]

Okay,,,,

 

After this one I will give up!.... I see how we do things here, we "beat them in submission"!

 

As I said LONG ago! I'm not trying to change anyones mind! You are not going to change mine, so why should I try to change yours!

 

It seems to me that when it comes to Baker, either you are for him or against him!

 

Thus you will not give credit were it is due and you will add blame whenever you can.

 

On this topic you seem to want to ignore many facts of Bakers history as a manager!

I have posted facts about Bakers record as a manager!

I'm faced with part fact and what others "think" is the cause of countless arm problems faced by Cub pitchers!

- Wood who even if you don't want to say so, had COUNTLESS arm problems prior to Baker being the manager!!

- Prior who has missed (I will give you) 2 Months due to ARM problems that can not be explained! I don't consider running into a someone or being hit with a baseball unexplained!

- Chad Fox had a number of problems prior to last year!

- To save the trouble, Williamson will be hurt this year again! His arm! This is the outcome of COUNTLESS problems prior to Baker!

- Why is it that only players who have a history of arm problems far into there past, or on other teams, for some reason develop them under baker? Maybe they are just part of that player!! And no ones fault!

- Baker haters seem to ignore the fact that NOT ONE Giant pitcher in my memory and also looking back and checking a few names I was unsure of had a Major Arm Injury during Bakers years in SF, this is simply my guess work and also I did look up a lot of names I could not remember on! (if someone else has other info, please post it)!

This is just to have a look at how POOR of a job Baker did over a two year time span as a manager of the Giants between 2000 and 2002.. I picked the years out only because that is as far back of a source as I could find, or I would have gone back more.

GIANTS 2000 - 2002 PITCHER Trips to the DL.......

Alan Embree 15-day DL lower back strain.

Shawn Estes 15-day DL tendinitis in his left shoulder.

Tim Worrell 15-day DL tendinitis in his right shoulder.

Mark Gardner 15-day DL strained right shoulder.

Shawn Estes 15-day DL sprained left ankle.

Jason Schmidt 15-day DL strained right groin.

Jason Christiansen 15-day DL tendinitis in his left elbow.

Jay Witasick 15-day DL contusion on his left foot.

Manny Aybar 15-day DL right hip flexor.

4 ARM related, 5 NON ARM Related in 2 years.

 

CUBS 2000 - 2002 PITCHER Trips to the DL.......

Flash Gordon 15-day DL, with a strained right triceps muscle.

Mike Fyhrie 15-day DL with a broken ulna bone in his left arm

Courtney Duncan 15-day DL with right shoulder tendinitis

Felix Heredia 15-day DL with left shoulder soreness

Kerry Wood 15-day DL with right shoulder tendinitis.

Kyle Farnsworth 15-day DL with stress fracture in right foot

Ron Mahay 15-day DL with bicep tendinitis

Carlos Zambrano 15-day DL with a strained right elbow.

Jason Bere on 15-day DL strained right shoulder.

Juan Cruz on 15-day DL with right arm fatigue.

Jon Lieber on 15-day DL with elbow tendinitis.

Jason Bere on 15-day DL with groin strain.

10 ARM Related, 2 NON ARM related in 2 years.

 

For a manager who don't use his pitchers correctly or over uses them, he did not do that bad of a job when looking at what the Cubs have gone through over the same time..

 

Lets look at another team who has a manager that even I would like to see in Chicago... "The Braves over the same time"!

Kevin Millwood 60-day DL shoulder injury.

Joe Nelson 15-day DL shoulder tendenitis.

John Smoltz 15-day DL inflammation of the right elbow and shoulder.

Odalis Perez 15-day DL inflimmation in shoulder.

Derrick Lewis on the 15-Day DL bicep tendinitis.

Horacio Ramirez 15-Day DL tendonitis in left elbow.

Albie Lopez 15-Day DL strigned right elbow.

Jason Marquis 15-Day DL tendonitis in right shoulder.

Albie Lopez 15-Day DL strained right groin.

Greg Maddux 15-Day DL inflamed nerves in lower back

Derrick Lewis to the 60-Day DL nerve damage in elbow.

Albie Lopez 15-Day DL tendonitis in right shoulder.

Kevin Gyrboski 15-Day DL sore right elbow.

Darren Holmes 15-Day DL laceration on right thumb.

Mike Remlinger 15-day DL strained left shoulder.

ohn Foster 15-Day DL strained left shoulder.

Mike Remlinger 15-Day DL strained left groin.

13 ARM Related, 4 NON ARM related in 2 years!

 

I compair the Cubs, Giants and Braves over the same time frame! The resluts are as what you see! Baker managed teams had the LEAST arm related injuries to pitchers of all three teams. You can take it as a fluke or however you like. The point I'm trying to get to is Baker managed pitchers have shown in his 11 years prior to being with the Cubs to fall below the "normal" leauge average in Arm related injuries. This says to me that he has not over used them to the degree that everyone seems to say he does! "To the point of being hurt"!

 

- Baker LOVES the Vets and will NOT play rookies!

Marvin Benard

Bill Mueller

Pedro Feliz

Rich Aurilia

Joe Nathan

Russ Ortiz

Shawn Estes

Rod Beck

Royce Clayton

Darren Lewis

TO NAME A FEW that have got a start under Baker! The above players were all gave full time jobs with Dusty Baker! To win or lose!

- I'm can not defend anyone that says "that is not enough in X number of years"... I can not defend the production of the SF Giants Farm system.. and i think Baker has little to do with that aspect of the organization.

 

His teams don't have a high OBP?

Giants

02 2nd in OBP.

01 3rd in OBP.

00 1st in OBP.

99 3rd in OBP.

98 1st in OBP.

97 5th in OBP.

96 5th in OBP.

95 12th in OBP.

94 13th in OBP.

93 3rd in OBP.

Looking at this I have to ask, when are we going to start to lay some blame on the PLAYERS? I have yet to see Baker draw a walk or K in a Cubs uniform! It seems like in his past (if he had any pull with Sabean (spelling) he went after OBP type of guys!)...

 

Larry Dierker: MY BAD! I was thinking he was the manager of the Astros a few seasons ago when they started poor then the managers was fired!

I made a mistake!

 

I feel in black and white I have shown!

- Baker to be 19th all time winning % of managers with over 1,000 Wins.

- Baker to be 1st in winning % of Cub managers in the last 60 years!

- Baker as a manager has proven to be a winner. (His teams records)!

- Baker managed teams have had LESS ARM related injuries over a 2 years period then other teams! Cubs included!

- Baker has given Rookies a shot to play everyday in his past, when the rookie has proven to be a MLB ready player!

- Baker managed teams traditionally DUE have a high OBP. However I will not give credit or take credit from Baker on this one! To me this is a player issue! Either the GM gets the guys that get on base or he don't! Either way I do not feel that this is Bakers fault one way or the other!

Things I have strong feelings about!

- How anyone can blame Baker for Prior's being hit by a baseball or running into a second baseman is beyond me! Prior has been on the DL ONCE for an arm related injury that can not be explained. Even then one could argue it was because of the Achilles!

- How anyone can blame Baker for Wood's injuries the last two years is above me! Wood was a MAJOR INJURY RISK starting in 1998.

- I don't blame Baker for using Wood last year out of the bullpen! I do not feel it is Bakers job to assess the risk of using a pitcher, he only goes on guidance from the Cubs Medical team and if Hendry feels Wood should still be pitching. It is NOT Bakers call to put Wood on the DL and shut him down for the season! Can anyone argue with inside knowledge argue Wood asked not to pitch, Medical staff advised against it or Hendry said don't use him? We as fans are setting ourselves up to fail if we just assume everything to be the fault of Baker!

 

There are lots of things I did not agree with or do not like about Baker! However I do not have the record as a manager or player for that matter to second guess moves that did not work! Or the ones that worked.

 

This will be my last post on this topic.... :) I look forward to much more Cubs debate in the coming season!

I really wish you all the best, no hard feelings! We all want the same thing, What is best for the Cubs. We just have different views on how or what is the best! Either way, I think we all want them to win!

 

Go Cubs.

[RynoRules]

I meant psychologically. The achilles probably messed with him too. I hate to say it but this team can win 90 if Wood and Prior are healthy. Those top three are the best in baseball (assuming no clemens and a normal pettitte).

 

Why do you "hate to say it"? Is having a positive outlook that out of style?

 

I think you are correct, BTW, I just am not counting on it.

[CUBZ99]

We as fans are setting ourselves up to fail if we just assume everything to be the fault of Baker!

 

Baker to be 1st in winning % of Cub managers in the last 60 years!

 

Wow, nice job backing up your argument with some facts. Like I said earlier, I'm hoping that Dusty takes the team to the World Series this year, and all of this "Dusty is can't manage " garbage can be put to bed.

 

The one thing that stuck out at the convention last night was that Dusty is definitely not satisfied with losing.

[ThePenguin11]

Holy cow, you have either a lot of time on your hands or you're Darren Baker. I would have an easier time reading your posts without all of the unneccessary exclamation points. I can't tell if you're yelling or laughing or confused. I'm just surprised anyone would go to the lengths you have in order to defend a ding bat like Johnny B. Baker. I really don't hate him as a person, but as the manager of my baseball team, I think he's lost his touch.