Should McGwire be elected to the HOF next year?

[Illini Iceman]

The reason I think that the steroid question is so vital to McGwire's candidancy is that in essence all he ever did to earn HOF consideration was hit home runs.

Sosa and Bonds were by far more complete players and had better success stealing bases, hitting for average, playing defense, etc. Even if Bonds never put up the huge HR numbers he would still be borderline HOF. Sosa not so much, but his non-HR skills are much better than McGwire's.

IMO McGwire basically did ONE thing exceptionally well and that ONE thing can be greatly impacted by steroid use. He has been called out by another player (Canseco) as a user and his body/health would be indicative of someone using steroids. I don't think it is unreasonable for a HOF voter to take into account that cloud of suspicion when deciding if they want to elect a one dimensional player like McGwire.

[frostwyrm]

If you keep McGwire out based on steroidal suspicion then you might as well put an asterisk on the whole decade of the 90's. MLB should have cracked down on the juicers 15 years ago, unfortunately it didn't. The users have now compiled stats and records that are in the official books. Do we just ignore all those numbers?

[PujolsPower]

I have a problem with using steroid suspicion as a criteria for HOF eligibility. There are so many unknowns related to steroid use that it is difficult to know what the overall effect of steroid usage may have been. Also, I think there are a lot of misconceptions out there related to steroid use. Many assume that you can tell by looking at someone if they have used steroids. Maybe the very muscular players are more likely to have used. But how do you explain all of the players that have tested positive thus far in MLB. None looked like a user to me. As for Cal Ripken, he could have benefited the most from the use of steroids.

 

The following questions need to be answered before I am willing to say a player should not be eligible for the HOF based on steroid suspicion.

 

Q: What effect did McGwire's (or any player's) steroid use have on his home run totals?

 

Q: How many pitchers gained an advantage from steroid use?

 

Q: What positive effect did steroid use have on pitchers who used?

 

Q: How many hitters used steroids?

 

Q: Did McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Clemens, Boone (all mentioned in Canseco's book) use steroids?

 

Q: Do steroids have more of a performance enhancing effect than greenies?

 

 

Steroid use and the use of amphetamines became a part of the game, due in large part because MLB did not test for it. I don't know that players gained an unfair advantage if they used, because you can't determine how widespread the usage was. You can't quantify what benefits were gained by hitters from the usage of either. You can't quantify what benefits were gained by pitchers from the usage of either.

 

Is using steroids or amphetamines one time enough to keep a player out? There are so many variables and the game was unregulated for so long, that I believe that the HOF vote should be based on the numbers a player put up versus his contemporaries.

[bhogg]

if steroids didn't help, players wouldn't use them.

[treebird]

if steroids didn't help, players wouldn't use them.

 

some players used to hammer nails into their bats because they thought it would give them more power. i doubt that actually helped.

[K-Town]

The reason I think that the steroid question is so vital to McGwire's candidancy is that in essence all he ever did to earn HOF consideration was hit home runs.

Sosa and Bonds were by far more complete players and had better success stealing bases, hitting for average, playing defense, etc. Even if Bonds never put up the huge HR numbers he would still be borderline HOF. Sosa not so much, but his non-HR skills are much better than McGwire's.

IMO McGwire basically did ONE thing exceptionally well and that ONE thing can be greatly impacted by steroid use. He has been called out by another player (Canseco) as a user and his body/health would be indicative of someone using steroids. I don't think it is unreasonable for a HOF voter to take into account that cloud of suspicion when deciding if they want to elect a one dimensional player like McGwire.

 

Sosa is a convicted cheater "cork". McGwire is not.

 

As far as McGwire being "one-dimensional", I believe he's won one more Gold Glove than Sosa has, and his career OPS+ is 34 points higher than Sosa, and his career on-base-percentage (not a power stat) is 50 points higher than Sosa.

 

McGwire was no more one-dimensional than Sosa.

[CubinNY]

The reason I think that the steroid question is so vital to McGwire's candidancy is that in essence all he ever did to earn HOF consideration was hit home runs.

Sosa and Bonds were by far more complete players and had better success stealing bases, hitting for average, playing defense, etc. Even if Bonds never put up the huge HR numbers he would still be borderline HOF. Sosa not so much, but his non-HR skills are much better than McGwire's.

IMO McGwire basically did ONE thing exceptionally well and that ONE thing can be greatly impacted by steroid use. He has been called out by another player (Canseco) as a user and his body/health would be indicative of someone using steroids. I don't think it is unreasonable for a HOF voter to take into account that cloud of suspicion when deciding if they want to elect a one dimensional player like McGwire.

 

Sosa is a convicted cheater "cork". McGwire is not.

 

As far as McGwire being "one-dimensional", I believe he's won one more Gold Glove than Sosa has, and his career OPS+ is 34 points higher than Sosa, and his career on-base-percentage (not a power stat) is 50 points higher than Sosa.

 

McGwire was no more one-dimensional than Sosa.

 

I am not a mod but I have had enough of your trolling on this board. IMO, It is time for you to go.

 

This whole thread is about McGuire not Sosa.

[K-Town]

The reason I think that the steroid question is so vital to McGwire's candidancy is that in essence all he ever did to earn HOF consideration was hit home runs.

Sosa and Bonds were by far more complete players and had better success stealing bases, hitting for average, playing defense, etc. Even if Bonds never put up the huge HR numbers he would still be borderline HOF. Sosa not so much, but his non-HR skills are much better than McGwire's.

IMO McGwire basically did ONE thing exceptionally well and that ONE thing can be greatly impacted by steroid use. He has been called out by another player (Canseco) as a user and his body/health would be indicative of someone using steroids. I don't think it is unreasonable for a HOF voter to take into account that cloud of suspicion when deciding if they want to elect a one dimensional player like McGwire.

 

Sosa is a convicted cheater "cork". McGwire is not.

 

As far as McGwire being "one-dimensional", I believe he's won one more Gold Glove than Sosa has, and his career OPS+ is 34 points higher than Sosa, and his career on-base-percentage (not a power stat) is 50 points higher than Sosa.

 

McGwire was no more one-dimensional than Sosa.

 

I am not a mod but I have had enough of your trolling on this board. IMO, It is time for you to go.

 

This whole thread is about McGuire not Sosa.

 

Actually, it's about "McGwire", not "McGuire".

 

I'm sure the mods don't think I'm trolling. If I were trolling, I'd be bagging on the Cubs, which I'm not. I've said that Sosa has been treated unfairly. Other than Sosa (who doesn't even play for your team anymore), I haven't mentioned any Cubs or former Cubs.

 

As for the thread being about McGwire, that's fine. Another poster brought up a comparison between McGwire and Sosa, so I commented on it.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The reason I think that the steroid question is so vital to McGwire's candidancy is that in essence all he ever did to earn HOF consideration was hit home runs.

Sosa and Bonds were by far more complete players and had better success stealing bases, hitting for average, playing defense, etc. Even if Bonds never put up the huge HR numbers he would still be borderline HOF. Sosa not so much, but his non-HR skills are much better than McGwire's.

IMO McGwire basically did ONE thing exceptionally well and that ONE thing can be greatly impacted by steroid use. He has been called out by another player (Canseco) as a user and his body/health would be indicative of someone using steroids. I don't think it is unreasonable for a HOF voter to take into account that cloud of suspicion when deciding if they want to elect a one dimensional player like McGwire.

 

Sosa is a convicted cheater "cork". McGwire is not.

 

As far as McGwire being "one-dimensional", I believe he's won one more Gold Glove than Sosa has, and his career OPS+ is 34 points higher than Sosa, and his career on-base-percentage (not a power stat) is 50 points higher than Sosa.

 

McGwire was no more one-dimensional than Sosa.

 

There are a few key points I'd like to make.

 

1. First Sosa "claims" that he used the corked bat by mistake. Does that explanation lack plausibility? Maybe....but the fact that they checked some 72 other bats that he had and found no cork at least lends some credibility to his story.

 

2. Second, am I to assume that since Sosa used a corked bat he was more likely to use steroids? Some might make that jump, but couldn't I also assume then if McGwire used andro he was more likely to use steroids.

 

3. While Sosa's use of cork and subsequent story about it could cause us to disbelieve his denial of steroids, we don't even have such a denial from McGwire. So while he credibility may be higher than Sosa's, his inability to lay that on the line seems to be a tacit admission of guilt.

 

4. Sosa, unlike McGwire, at least has the mark in his favor that he has undergone two seasons in MLB when he hasn't tested positive for steroids. His drop in production might lead one to believe he was on them and is now off of them, but at least we know he is clean now.

 

Comparing Sosa to McGwire isn't going to help him. While both will face their challenges, Sosa at least has maintained his innocence. McGwire has tacitly admitted guilt.

[K-Town]

There are a few key points I'd like to make.

 

1. First Sosa "claims" that he used the corked bat by mistake. Does that explanation lack plausibility? Maybe....but the fact that they checked some 72 other bats that he had and found no cork at least lends some credibility to his story.

 

2. Second, am I to assume that since Sosa used a corked bat he was more likely to use steroids? Some might make that jump, but couldn't I also assume then if McGwire used andro he was more likely to use steroids.

 

3. While Sosa's use of cork and subsequent story about it could cause us to disbelieve his denial of steroids, we don't even have such a denial from McGwire. So while he credibility may be higher than Sosa's, his inability to lay that on the line seems to be a tacit admission of guilt.

 

4. Sosa, unlike McGwire, at least has the mark in his favor that he has undergone two seasons in MLB when he hasn't tested positive for steroids. His drop in production might lead one to believe he was on them and is now off of them, but at least we know he is clean now.

 

Comparing Sosa to McGwire isn't going to help him. While both will face their challenges, Sosa at least has maintained his innocence. McGwire has tacitly admitted guilt.

 

First of all, I don't want to leave the impression that I'm ripping Sosa. I don't hate Sosa. I believe that he AND McGwire were instrumental in reviving baseball in the late 90's, and I'd like to see BOTH of them in the HOF.

 

However, the fact remains that Sosa was caught cheating (the bat was illegal, whether he meant to do it or not........ it's akin to players saying that they didn't "intentionally" use steroids).

 

McGwire was NOT caught cheating.

 

 

I understand the McGwire's silence will be interpreted by many (including sportswriters) as an admission of guilt. In reality though, there is no admission of guilt. If writers want to use their imagination or their own method of connecting dots in order to keep McGwire out of the HOF, that's up to them........ it's their vote. However, it still remains unfair, until every player from the "steroid era" has been scrutinized in the exact same way.

 

McGwire admitted to using andro. I'm not sure why the sportswriters can't leave it at that. I think the reason is because that story has already been written, and won't sell newspapers, so they want to invent "new" material.

[Derwood]

McGwire using andro wasn't "cheating" only because it wasn't against the rule to use it in baseball (at the time)

[Ding Dong Johnson]

3. While Sosa's use of cork and subsequent story about it could cause us to disbelieve his denial of steroids, we don't even have such a denial from McGwire. So while he credibility may be higher than Sosa's, his inability to lay that on the line seems to be a tacit admission of guilt.

 

I just want to jump on and add to this. I do believe Sammy was juiced, but I also believe the corking was a complete accident. Not only did they check all those bats and find nothing, but Sammy was trying to get press conferences going immediately after it happened. He was being interviewed on ESPN by (I think) Gary Miller by the 7th inning. He was sincere in his apologies, and I honestly believe it was nothing more than a big mistake.

 

Edit: During these in-game apologies, that's exactly what was coming out of his mouth -- apologies. Never excuses for what happened. He owned up to the mistake.

[Andy]

I believe Sammy didn't mean to use a corked bat. I also believe that andro helps you hit a hell of a lot more home runs than cork.

[Derwood]

I believe Sammy didn't mean to use a corked bat. I also believe that andro helps you hit a hell of a lot more home runs than cork.

 

and to me andro is no less cheating than steroids....both were legal in baseball at the time, both are performance enhancing, both are now illegal in baseball....giving yourself an edge is giving yourself an edge.

[K-Town]

3. While Sosa's use of cork and subsequent story about it could cause us to disbelieve his denial of steroids, we don't even have such a denial from McGwire. So while he credibility may be higher than Sosa's, his inability to lay that on the line seems to be a tacit admission of guilt.

 

I just want to jump on and add to this. I do believe Sammy was juiced, but I also believe the corking was a complete accident. Not only did they check all those bats and find nothing, but Sammy was trying to get press conferences going immediately after it happened. He was being interviewed on ESPN by (I think) Gary Miller by the 7th inning. He was sincere in his apologies, and I honestly believe it was nothing more than a big mistake.

 

Edit: During these in-game apologies, that's exactly what was coming out of his mouth -- apologies. Never excuses for what happened. He owned up to the mistake.

 

Believe what you want to. The fact that the rest of his bats were clean means nothing. Why would he need more than one with cork? He's obviously not stupid enough to have a whole rack full of corked bats. Do you honestly believe that he had dozens of clean bats, but just happened to pick up the ONE bat with cork in it, by chance? I don't buy it...... sorry.

 

To me, it doesn't matter. The cork wasn't going to help him. I've already said that I'd like to see both him AND McGwire in the HOF. I'm not holding one of them to any higher standard than the other.

[wolf stansson]

I think everybody getting all sensitive over McGwire vs Sosa is irrelevant. McGwire never got caught taking steroids. Sosa never got caught taking steroids. I believe they both used, but I can only speculate. The corked bat is a completely unrelated incident and shouldn't be brought into an argument about steroids. Using the corked bat as an example of Sammy's character can only work if Sammy lied about only having it for exhibition purposes. I don't know Sammy, Sammy has never lied to me that I know of definitively. I don't know anything beyond my own assumptions. My assumptions are that McGwire got lucky in that his body started breaking down and he knew steroids would become an issue so he got out. My assumption is that Sammy stopped using when testing started and his production suffered greatly from it.

 

Any arguing between people with only assumptions is pointless. Especially when the two sides are already predisposed to disagreements.

[UK1679666180]

Unfort. for McGwire and probably Cards fans is that the HOF qualifications are based on public opinion rather than the legal system.

 

Ideally, some would like to have it where it would have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that McGwire took steroids for it to impact his HOF status or tarnish his career. The court of public opinion doesn't operate like that, if there were indicators that a player might've used steroids, it's free game in the court of public opinion. If a voter feels a player did use steroids, it'll impact that vote.

 

There are certainly indicators that steroids might've been a possibility.

[stitchface]

Unfort. for McGwire and probably Cards fans is that the HOF qualifications are based on public opinion rather than the legal system.

 

Ideally, some would like to have it where it would have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that McGwire took steroids for it to impact his HOF status or tarnish his career. The court of public opinion doesn't operate like that, if there were indicators that a player might've used steroids, it's free game in the court of public opinion. If a voter feels a player did use steroids, it'll impact that vote.

 

There are certainly indicators that steroids might've been a possibility.

 

I believe both will make the HOF. McGwire will be "punished" for his possible steroid use by a delayed vote where he would have been a first ballot candidate. I think that statement will be made by the voters, then he'll get in.

[UK1679666180]

Agreed, they'll both get into the HoF and they've earned it.

[The Voice of Reason]

Interesting perspective on Bonds, McGwire and Selig by St. Louis writer Bryan Burwell who calls for Selig to invoke the "for the good of the game clause" and suspend Bonds.

 

Note: Judge Keenesaw Mountain Landis used this clause to kick the Black Sox out of baseball after a jury found them innocent.

 

 

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/bryanburwell/story/C613AE7F7D4A8CAC8625712B001CA4AA?OpenDocument

 

 

This is the ultimate smoking gun that should bury Bonds, render his pursuit of the major-league career home run record as pointless, and sink his once-certain Hall of Fame possibilities, just as surely as Mark McGwire's awkward testimony before Congress nearly a year ago convinced many that he was a drug fraud.

 

Yet it also has put MLB into one fine predicament. The most important records in major-league history are in the hands of baseball's most notorious characters. Bonds and McGwire are already ranked No. 1 and 2 on the single-season home run record list, and there isn't a soul out there that should consider their marks as legitimate.

Edited March 8, 2006 by The Voice of Reason

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The present-day commisioner doesn't wield nearly the power that the comissioner did in Landis's day.

 

Landis never had to deal with a players' union.

[The Voice of Reason]

K-town wrote:

 

When every other HOF candidate is scrutinized the same way, then Wojciechowski can make this argument. Until then, it's flawed logic....... and the only people who can follow it are the ones that are desperate to take a shot a Mac, regardless of how silly it sounds.

 

The Voice wrote:

 

Doesn't seem to me that Wojo is picking only on poor Mac (see below). I guess if you can't defend (McGwire's) the message, you (K-Town) have to attack the messenger.

 

Wojo wrote:

 

I wouldn't vote for McGwire. I wouldn't vote for Sammy Sosa when he became eligible, not just because he suddenly forgot how to speak English at those congressional hearings, but because time has created more questions than answers about his career numbers (a 36-homer/34-stolen base guy in 1995, a 66/18 guy in '98, 64/0 in '01, a 14/1 guy in '05?). And I wouldn't vote for Barry Bonds, who uses the Ignorance Defense when it comes to steroid use. In short, he says he didn't know the "flaxseed oil" given to him by his trainer was really steroid cream.

 

I never said it's just about Mac. I think that he's treating Bonds & Sosa unfairly, also. (although Sosa got CAUGHT cheating, so his integrity is pretty much toast).

 

i think part of the idea of this thread was that mcgwire's integrity was toast (because of his performance at the congressional hearing), so if all we have to do is say someone has been dishonest in the past in order to declare that they took steroids, i guess mcgwire is dead to rights.

 

seems like an awfully low standard of proof to me, though.

 

There's more to the questioning of his integrity than just his performance at the hearing or Canseco's eyewitness accounts.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/289500p-247837c.html

[K-Town]

K-town wrote:

 

When every other HOF candidate is scrutinized the same way, then Wojciechowski can make this argument. Until then, it's flawed logic....... and the only people who can follow it are the ones that are desperate to take a shot a Mac, regardless of how silly it sounds.

 

The Voice wrote:

 

Doesn't seem to me that Wojo is picking only on poor Mac (see below). I guess if you can't defend (McGwire's) the message, you (K-Town) have to attack the messenger.

 

Wojo wrote:

 

I wouldn't vote for McGwire. I wouldn't vote for Sammy Sosa when he became eligible, not just because he suddenly forgot how to speak English at those congressional hearings, but because time has created more questions than answers about his career numbers (a 36-homer/34-stolen base guy in 1995, a 66/18 guy in '98, 64/0 in '01, a 14/1 guy in '05?). And I wouldn't vote for Barry Bonds, who uses the Ignorance Defense when it comes to steroid use. In short, he says he didn't know the "flaxseed oil" given to him by his trainer was really steroid cream.

 

I never said it's just about Mac. I think that he's treating Bonds & Sosa unfairly, also. (although Sosa got CAUGHT cheating, so his integrity is pretty much toast).

 

i think part of the idea of this thread was that mcgwire's integrity was toast (because of his performance at the congressional hearing), so if all we have to do is say someone has been dishonest in the past in order to declare that they took steroids, i guess mcgwire is dead to rights.

 

seems like an awfully low standard of proof to me, though.

 

There's more to the questioning of his integrity than just his performance at the hearing or Canseco's eyewitness accounts.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/289500p-247837c.html

 

 

An "source" says that an "informant" says that "some guy" says that McGwire might have used something.

 

You're right..... there's MUCH more to it than I originally thought. Good grief.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

An "source" says that an "informant" says that "some guy" says that McGwire might have used something.

 

You're right..... there's MUCH more to it than I originally thought. Good grief.

 

Yeah except for the whole point when Canseco was the source, informant, and some guy in his book.

[The Voice of Reason]

 

An "source" says that an "informant" says that "some guy" says that McGwire might have used something.

 

You're right..... there's MUCH more to it than I originally thought. Good grief.

 

Yeah except for the whole point when Canseco was the source, informant, and some guy in his book.

 

Wasn't it about this time last year that all the McGwire and Palmeiro supporters were dismissing Canseco's allegations as not credible? With Palemiro's positive test and McGwire's weak "testimony" at the hearings, even the most fervent Canseco haters must admit that Canseco's allegations have credibility.