What you're getting in JJ (so long it needs it's own thread)

[RockTheIvy]

 

2005 was a tough year for the Twins and Jacque Jones, it flat out sucked. Jones had his injury problems and his uncle, who raised him passed away during the season. Try playing with that on your mind. Torii Hunter got injured on July 31st and that’s when everything was officialy done. Don’t judge him by his 05 year, don’t. You know these types of years, they happen to every team.

 

I could buy Jones having a down year because of external factors, these things happen. However, there's no discernable difference in production between the rest of his career and '05. He was performing the same as he always was.

 

 

Not to nitpick a generally good post, but Jones' 2005 numbers were significantly below his career averages pretty well across the board, aside from XBH. His OPS was about 30 points below his career norm.

 

His 2004 OPS was worse than his 2005. So he's had 2 horrible years in a row. How is this explained?

 

The Metrodome.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

 

2005 was a tough year for the Twins and Jacque Jones, it flat out sucked. Jones had his injury problems and his uncle, who raised him passed away during the season. Try playing with that on your mind. Torii Hunter got injured on July 31st and that’s when everything was officialy done. Don’t judge him by his 05 year, don’t. You know these types of years, they happen to every team.

 

I could buy Jones having a down year because of external factors, these things happen. However, there's no discernable difference in production between the rest of his career and '05. He was performing the same as he always was.

 

 

Not to nitpick a generally good post, but Jones' 2005 numbers were significantly below his career averages pretty well across the board, aside from XBH. His OPS was about 30 points below his career norm.

 

That's true, but his '05 was nearly identical to his '04 and similar to his '01. It wasn't an aberration for him.

[E.J.]

 

2005 was a tough year for the Twins and Jacque Jones, it flat out sucked. Jones had his injury problems and his uncle, who raised him passed away during the season. Try playing with that on your mind. Torii Hunter got injured on July 31st and that’s when everything was officialy done. Don’t judge him by his 05 year, don’t. You know these types of years, they happen to every team.

 

I could buy Jones having a down year because of external factors, these things happen. However, there's no discernable difference in production between the rest of his career and '05. He was performing the same as he always was.

 

 

Not to nitpick a generally good post, but Jones' 2005 numbers were significantly below his career averages pretty well across the board, aside from XBH. His OPS was about 30 points below his career norm.

 

His 2004 OPS was worse than his 2005. So he's had 2 horrible years in a row. How is this explained?

 

The Metrodome.

 

:lol:

 

He's played his entire career in the Metrodome.

[RockTheIvy]

 

2005 was a tough year for the Twins and Jacque Jones, it flat out sucked. Jones had his injury problems and his uncle, who raised him passed away during the season. Try playing with that on your mind. Torii Hunter got injured on July 31st and that’s when everything was officialy done. Don’t judge him by his 05 year, don’t. You know these types of years, they happen to every team.

 

I could buy Jones having a down year because of external factors, these things happen. However, there's no discernable difference in production between the rest of his career and '05. He was performing the same as he always was.

 

 

Not to nitpick a generally good post, but Jones' 2005 numbers were significantly below his career averages pretty well across the board, aside from XBH. His OPS was about 30 points below his career norm.

 

His 2004 OPS was worse than his 2005. So he's had 2 horrible years in a row. How is this explained?

 

The Metrodome.

 

:lol:

 

He's played his entire career in the Metrodome.

 

Well damn, then this really is a bad signing, huh? :lol:

[E.J.]

 

2005 was a tough year for the Twins and Jacque Jones, it flat out sucked. Jones had his injury problems and his uncle, who raised him passed away during the season. Try playing with that on your mind. Torii Hunter got injured on July 31st and that’s when everything was officialy done. Don’t judge him by his 05 year, don’t. You know these types of years, they happen to every team.

 

I could buy Jones having a down year because of external factors, these things happen. However, there's no discernable difference in production between the rest of his career and '05. He was performing the same as he always was.

 

 

Not to nitpick a generally good post, but Jones' 2005 numbers were significantly below his career averages pretty well across the board, aside from XBH. His OPS was about 30 points below his career norm.

 

His 2004 OPS was worse than his 2005. So he's had 2 horrible years in a row. How is this explained?

 

The Metrodome.

 

:lol:

 

He's played his entire career in the Metrodome.

 

Well damn, then this really is a bad signing, huh? :lol:

 

Just for kicks, here is Jones' 3-year day game splits:

 

.245 .292 .390 .682

 

Pretty sweet, huh? :puke:

[RockTheIvy]

 

2005 was a tough year for the Twins and Jacque Jones, it flat out sucked. Jones had his injury problems and his uncle, who raised him passed away during the season. Try playing with that on your mind. Torii Hunter got injured on July 31st and that’s when everything was officialy done. Don’t judge him by his 05 year, don’t. You know these types of years, they happen to every team.

 

I could buy Jones having a down year because of external factors, these things happen. However, there's no discernable difference in production between the rest of his career and '05. He was performing the same as he always was.

 

 

Not to nitpick a generally good post, but Jones' 2005 numbers were significantly below his career averages pretty well across the board, aside from XBH. His OPS was about 30 points below his career norm.

 

His 2004 OPS was worse than his 2005. So he's had 2 horrible years in a row. How is this explained?

 

The Metrodome.

 

:lol:

 

He's played his entire career in the Metrodome.

 

Well damn, then this really is a bad signing, huh? :lol:

 

Just for kicks, here is Jones' 3-year day game splits:

 

.245 .292 .390 .682

 

Pretty sweet, huh? :puke:

 

Well good thing that 8-8-88 happened or this guy would be even worse!

[ThePenguin11]

Apparently his OBP took a nosedive starting in August last year when he started playing hurt. Supposedly he was headed to the DL and then Hunter got hurt so he played through the pain. I'm not a fan of the move, but sometimes you have to look deeper at the numbers.

 

EDIT: Oh, and can we please not start calling him JJ?

 

Too late. Nicknames seem to be a necessity here. See my rant about Cub nicknames here:

 

viewtopic.php?t=27639&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

 

It helps me to rant on the subject every once in a while. Another that I left out was Doob-ie (DuBois). I'd say it was creative and funny if it didn't follow Dust-y's golden rule of adding -ie or -y to the end of the surname.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Jones sucks.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Correct me if I am wrong, BUT wasn't David Ortiz "less then impressivee" when he was with the Twins? Didn't he "blossomed" when he finally left Minny for Boston and with the help of ManRam, formed "BASEBALL'S most fear 1-2 punch" of Ortiz/Ramirez?

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect Jones to turn into a MVP Candidate, but is it possible that LEAVING Minny for a more hitter friendly atmosphere, could help Jones become a better player? I mean in Minny the best "power" he played with was Tori Tunter/Justin Morneau/Matt LeCroy/Ortiz, and now in Chicago he will get to hit behind Ramirez and Lee, and excluding Ortiz, Jones never played with the offensive talents of a Aramis Ramirez, and/or Derrick Lee.....till now.

 

I know I will take poopy for this....but I expect a .281/.335/.496 24 hrs/91rbis in Chicago next yr. Now give me the poopy talk!!!

[Gunned]

I don't even know where to start. Clutch? A leader? How about the fact that he batted .249 with an OBP of .319 last year. That's Neifiesque.

 

And how come you don't compare Burnitz's numbers to Jone's? Is it maybe becuase Burnitz stacks up better than Jones. To say that Jones runs the bases better and is a better defender is ridiculous.

 

And I don't care how much energy Jones bring if he can't hit for crap.

 

This thread is ridiculous and probably should be locked.

 

I find this to be the most offensive post in the thread. Far worse than any f-bomb.

 

The guy shows up and makes a post that he obviously spent a lot of time on, just trying to start discussion. I don't agree with his points either, but that's no reason to respond with a childish, overreacting post and say the entire thread should be locked because he mentioned the words "clutch" and "leader."

 

I'd be pissed off if I were him too.

 

I rarely find a thread here at NSBB that doesn't degenerate into high school squabbling, but this probably takes the cake.

[Warpticon]

Correct me if I am wrong, BUT wasn't David Ortiz "less then impressivee" when he was with the Twins? Didn't he "blossomed" when he finally left Minny for Boston and with the help of ManRam, formed "BASEBALL'S most fear 1-2 punch" of Ortiz/Ramirez?

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect Jones to turn into a MVP Candidate, but is it possible that LEAVING Minny for a more hitter friendly atmosphere, could help Jones become a better player? I mean in Minny the best "power" he played with was Tori Tunter/Justin Morneau/Matt LeCroy/Ortiz, and now in Chicago he will get to hit behind Ramirez and Lee, and excluding Ortiz, Jones never played with the offensive talents of a Aramis Ramirez, and/or Derrick Lee.....till now.

 

I know I will take poopy for this....but I expect a .281/.335/.496 24 hrs/91rbis in Chicago next yr. Now give me the poopy talk!!!

 

You are wrong, and I am correcting you.

 

Ortiz was 26 when he left Minnesota, just entering his prime. In his age 26 year, he hit .272/.339/.500. Not superstar caliber, but very solid. The previous years at 24 and 25 he put up inconsistent but solid numbers in the same class, but a half notch down. He put up a .090 ISOD at 25, and has always been a patient hitter. I don't think anybody would have expected him to explode the way he did, but it's certainly not unreasonable that a disciplined hitter entering his prime on an incline could perform much better in his prime years in a hitter's ballpark.

 

Jones is none of the above. He's exiting his prime, and is on a clear decline. He's not patient or disciplined, and he's not showing any signs of improving in any capacity lately. The two aren't comparable in any meaningful way other than that they are both former Twins.

[cubbyvirus00]

I don't even know where to start. Clutch? A leader? How about the fact that he batted .249 with an OBP of .319 last year. That's Neifiesque.

 

And how come you don't compare Burnitz's numbers to Jone's? Is it maybe becuase Burnitz stacks up better than Jones. To say that Jones runs the bases better and is a better defender is ridiculous.

 

And I don't care how much energy Jones bring if he can't hit for crap.

 

This thread is ridiculous and probably should be locked.

 

I find this to be the most offensive post in the thread. Far worse than any f-bomb.

 

The guy shows up and makes a post that he obviously spent a lot of time on, just trying to start discussion. I don't agree with his points either, but that's no reason to respond with a childish, overreacting post and say the entire thread should be locked because he mentioned the words "clutch" and "leader."

 

I'd be pissed off if I were him too.

 

I rarely find a thread here at NSBB that doesn't degenerate into high school squabbling, but this probably takes the cake.

 

i agree. the guy talked about his blog and posted his work, and gets blasted out of left field for nothing.

 

I'm dubious on the Jones signing. He provides an attitude and hustle thats lacking here, but statistically hes a little disappointing. I think this is a signing we wont be able to judge until the season starts.

[brinoch]

I don't even know where to start. Clutch? A leader? How about the fact that he batted .249 with an OBP of .319 last year. That's Neifiesque.

 

And how come you don't compare Burnitz's numbers to Jone's? Is it maybe becuase Burnitz stacks up better than Jones. To say that Jones runs the bases better and is a better defender is ridiculous.

 

And I don't care how much energy Jones bring if he can't hit for crap.

 

This thread is ridiculous and probably should be locked.

 

I find this to be the most offensive post in the thread. Far worse than any f-bomb.

 

The guy shows up and makes a post that he obviously spent a lot of time on, just trying to start discussion. I don't agree with his points either, but that's no reason to respond with a childish, overreacting post and say the entire thread should be locked because he mentioned the words "clutch" and "leader."

 

I'd be pissed off if I were him too.

 

I rarely find a thread here at NSBB that doesn't degenerate into high school squabbling, but this probably takes the cake.

 

And a mod chastised him for posting it. Like his opinion or not, TC3 is welcome to post it. It's fine to debate players, take different positions, and work to persuade others that your position is correct -- that's the lifeblood of a message board.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I don't even know where to start. Clutch? A leader? How about the fact that he batted .249 with an OBP of .319 last year. That's Neifiesque.

 

And how come you don't compare Burnitz's numbers to Jone's? Is it maybe becuase Burnitz stacks up better than Jones. To say that Jones runs the bases better and is a better defender is ridiculous.

 

And I don't care how much energy Jones bring if he can't hit for crap.

 

This thread is ridiculous and probably should be locked.

 

I find this to be the most offensive post in the thread. Far worse than any f-bomb.

 

The guy shows up and makes a post that he obviously spent a lot of time on, just trying to start discussion. I don't agree with his points either, but that's no reason to respond with a childish, overreacting post and say the entire thread should be locked because he mentioned the words "clutch" and "leader."

 

I'd be pissed off if I were him too.

 

I rarely find a thread here at NSBB that doesn't degenerate into high school squabbling, but this probably takes the cake.

 

i agree. the guy talked about his blog and posted his work, and gets blasted out of left field for nothing.

 

I'm dubious on the Jones signing. He provides an attitude and hustle thats lacking here, but statistically hes a little disappointing. I think this is a signing we wont be able to judge until the season starts.

 

What's the problem here? A mod told WilliSC that there was nothing wrong with the original post in the thread and there's no reason to lock the thread. It seems like things have been settled and you're still bringing this up?

[XZero771679666304]

I don't even know where to start. Clutch? A leader? How about the fact that he batted .249 with an OBP of .319 last year. That's Neifiesque.

 

And how come you don't compare Burnitz's numbers to Jone's? Is it maybe becuase Burnitz stacks up better than Jones. To say that Jones runs the bases better and is a better defender is ridiculous.

 

And I don't care how much energy Jones bring if he can't hit for crap.

 

This thread is ridiculous and probably should be locked.

 

I find this to be the most offensive post in the thread. Far worse than any f-bomb.

 

The guy shows up and makes a post that he obviously spent a lot of time on, just trying to start discussion. I don't agree with his points either, but that's no reason to respond with a childish, overreacting post and say the entire thread should be locked because he mentioned the words "clutch" and "leader."

 

I'd be pissed off if I were him too.

 

I rarely find a thread here at NSBB that doesn't degenerate into high school squabbling, but this probably takes the cake.

 

And a mod chastised him for posting it. Like his opinion or not, he's welcome to post it. It's fine to debate players, take different positions, and work to persuade others that your position is correct -- that's the lifeblood of a message board.

 

Saying a thread is "ridiculous and should be locked" is not welcome. The part of the post that came before it is fine, but the last line is insulting, intolerant and condescending. Just because some people are in an overreative frenzy does not give them the right to insinuate that an opposing viewpoint is not welcome and devoid of validity.

[Diffusion]

Okay then...

 

First off, lets stop the Burnitz/ Patterson comparisons. That’s crap, it doesn’t make any sense at all. None whatsoever. All we hear is the strikeout comparisons with him and Patterson. Now we’ve all seen Patterson play, he is not Jacque Jones, not even close. He’s the worst player a lot of us have seen in our lifetime as baseball fans period. Stop the nonsense K comparisons. Yes JJ does K a lot, but not close to Patterson. JJ has 737 career strikeouts in 3492 career AB’s, that’s a 21.1% K rate (yes, a stat I invented by myself). Patterson has 552 career K’s in 2176 career AB’s for a 25.3% K rate. Last year JJ K’d only twice more and Patterson missed a huge part of the season. I have figured these K stats before and from what I remember Patterson had something like the 7th highest K rate in the MLB, JJ was not on the list. Last year’s K rates, JJ had 120 K’s in 523 AB’s for a 22.9% K rate. Patterson had 118 K’s in 451 AB’s for a 26.1% rate. That’s terrible, and 22.9 to 26.1 is a big difference. This is all people have to say when they compare these 2 is the strikeouts, that’s all they point out. I am not saying JJ’s K rates are acceptable, they’re not, he does K way too much. But not nearly as much as Patterson. Remember, Patterson had 168 strikeouts in 04 and has gotten over 140 twice, JJ’s worst is 129. Would you like to keep playing the numbers game? Please, lets keep doing that, I’d be more than happy.

 

First of all, K's are way down the list on why Jones is terrible. K's are not evil. Most times they are no different than any other out, and they chiefly harm you on the whole by hampering your BABIP(a stat I did not make up).

 

No, you didn't make up BABIP, but you did make up the bit about K's harming BABIP. They don't. There is no direct relationship between K's and BABIP, by BABIP's very definition (the formula specifically throws out all ABs in which the player K's). There is an indirect relationship, in that strikeouts correlate with power and power correlates with a slightly higher BABIP. But that assists BABIP, it doesn't hamper it.

 

K's are bad, but it's not that simple. If the search button was working I'd repost the few paragraphs that I've honed to explain everything. As it is, right now, I don't have the time to rewrite it.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Okay then...

 

First off, lets stop the Burnitz/ Patterson comparisons. That’s crap, it doesn’t make any sense at all. None whatsoever. All we hear is the strikeout comparisons with him and Patterson. Now we’ve all seen Patterson play, he is not Jacque Jones, not even close. He’s the worst player a lot of us have seen in our lifetime as baseball fans period. Stop the nonsense K comparisons. Yes JJ does K a lot, but not close to Patterson. JJ has 737 career strikeouts in 3492 career AB’s, that’s a 21.1% K rate (yes, a stat I invented by myself). Patterson has 552 career K’s in 2176 career AB’s for a 25.3% K rate. Last year JJ K’d only twice more and Patterson missed a huge part of the season. I have figured these K stats before and from what I remember Patterson had something like the 7th highest K rate in the MLB, JJ was not on the list. Last year’s K rates, JJ had 120 K’s in 523 AB’s for a 22.9% K rate. Patterson had 118 K’s in 451 AB’s for a 26.1% rate. That’s terrible, and 22.9 to 26.1 is a big difference. This is all people have to say when they compare these 2 is the strikeouts, that’s all they point out. I am not saying JJ’s K rates are acceptable, they’re not, he does K way too much. But not nearly as much as Patterson. Remember, Patterson had 168 strikeouts in 04 and has gotten over 140 twice, JJ’s worst is 129. Would you like to keep playing the numbers game? Please, lets keep doing that, I’d be more than happy.

 

First of all, K's are way down the list on why Jones is terrible. K's are not evil. Most times they are no different than any other out, and they chiefly harm you on the whole by hampering your BABIP(a stat I did not make up).

 

No, you didn't make up BABIP, but you did make up the bit about K's harming BABIP. They don't. There is no direct relationship between K's and BABIP, by BABIP's very definition (the formula specifically throws out all ABs in which the player K's). There is an indirect relationship, in that strikeouts correlate with power and power correlates with a slightly higher BABIP. But that assists BABIP, it doesn't hamper it.

 

K's are bad, but it's not that simple. If the search button was working I'd repost the few paragraphs that I've honed to explain everything. As it is, right now, I don't have the time to rewrite it.

 

The fact that K's are not included in BABIP is the relationship. The more K's you have, the fewer outs come from balls in play, the higher your BABIP is, making it harder to sustain. I probably should've added sustainability to "harming BABIP".

[SouthSideRyan]

Just being the nitpicker here, but Burnitz's stats posted earlier in the thread aren't right. His '03 is only his Mets #s, his actual '03 was

 

239/299/487

 

And calling Jones average in RF is pretty ridiculous. He's been below average as a hitter, but there's no need to make things up to make him look worse. Jones is a very good defender.

[USSoccer]

Just a quick pet peeve:

 

Audio tape proved that Corey Patterson did not say "It's Just a Game". Corey Patterson said "It's just the game" in response to a question about his ups and downs. There a giant difference between those two statements, and one that needs to be cleared up.

[CubinNY]

The fact that K's are not included in BABIP is the relationship. The more K's you have, the fewer outs come from balls in play, the higher your BABIP is, making it harder to sustain. I probably should've added sustainability to "harming BABIP".

 

That is not the case

 

BABIP is independent of strikeouts

 

Think of it this way. There are two types of outs:

 

Ones where no contact is made (strikeout)

 

Ones where contact is made. (ball batted in play)

 

The only ones that hinder BABIP are the ones where contact is made.

 

Let's say I have 600 ABs in a year

 

I could stike out 599 times and still have a BABIP of 1.000.

 

------

BTW here is to hoping Hendry gets lightning in a bottle with JJ.

Edited December 21, 2005 by CubinNY

[RynoRules]

Apparently his OBP took a nosedive starting in August last year when he started playing hurt. Supposedly he was headed to the DL and then Hunter got hurt so he played through the pain. I'm not a fan of the move, but sometimes you have to look deeper at the numbers.

 

EDIT: Oh, and can we please not start calling him JJ?

 

To add to that...

 

He strained his oblique on August 10th of last year. At the time, his line was 261/342/450. At the end of the year, after playing hurt for the final two months, his final line was 249/319/438. So it's entirely conceivable that had he not gotten injured, his numbers wouldn't have been nearly as bad as they would have.

 

And geez TC3, relax man!

 

I did not know any of this. Those nos. are more Reggie Sanders-like. Thanks for the knowlege; its encouraging.

[harrdb00]

This board is so depressing. TC3 tried to inject some optimism and he gets ripped for it. I used to really enjoy reading everyone's views, because they were interesting and unpredictable. Now, the opinions are terribly predictable and almost always negative. I don't even have to be near a computer to know that practically everyone on here is making fun of Hendry's weight or calling Dusty Baker stupid. A little optimism goes a long way, isn't that why we are Cubs fans?

[CuseCubFan69]

This board is so depressing. TC3 tried to inject some optimism and he gets ripped for it. I used to really enjoy reading everyone's views, because they were interesting and unpredictable. Now, the opinions are terribly predictable and almost always negative. I don't even have to be near a computer to know that practically everyone on here is making fun of Hendry's weight or calling Dusty Baker stupid. A little optimism goes a long way, isn't that why we are Cubs fans?

 

I think of the board as a stock and it goes up and down. Right now it's on a down cycle but it will be up again soon!!! :D

[CubinNY]

This board is so depressing. TC3 tried to inject some optimism and he gets ripped for it. I used to really enjoy reading everyone's views, because they were interesting and unpredictable. Now, the opinions are terribly predictable and almost always negative. I don't even have to be near a computer to know that practically everyone on here is making fun of Hendry's weight or calling Dusty Baker stupid. A little optimism goes a long way, isn't that why we are Cubs fans?

 

This is a message board. When Hendry signed Nomar people were happy. When Hendry got Barrett people were happy. When Hendry traded Sosa people were happy. When Hendry signed Burnitz people where unhappy.

 

It is completly unreasonable for people to be happy about Jones given his career arc, the Cubs payroll, and need.

 

A little optimism does go a long way. Blindness however, only gets one to walk into walls over and over again.

[XZero771679666304]

This board is so depressing. TC3 tried to inject some optimism and he gets ripped for it. I used to really enjoy reading everyone's views, because they were interesting and unpredictable. Now, the opinions are terribly predictable and almost always negative. I don't even have to be near a computer to know that practically everyone on here is making fun of Hendry's weight or calling Dusty Baker stupid. A little optimism goes a long way, isn't that why we are Cubs fans?

 

This is a message board. When Hendry signed Nomar people were happy. When Hendry got Barrett people were happy. When Hendry traded Sosa people were happy. When Hendry signed Burnitz people where unhappy.

 

It is completly unreasonable for people to be happy about Jones given his career arc, the Cubs payroll, and need.

 

A little optimism does go a long way. Blindness however, only gets one to walk into walls over and over again.

 

Being unhappy about the way the offseason has gone is one thing, but the level of melodramatic overreaction and blanket criticism in recent weeks has been ridiculous.

 

Sure Jones sucks, and it is disappointing we didn't do better. Hendry has done a poor job, and I think we could do better than him, too. The upcoming season is going to be harder than it needed to be. But people are dismissing even the hint of optimism as lunacy and declaring Hendry the antichrist and the 2006 season as dead already. It's just silly. It's like mob panic.