What you're getting in JJ (so long it needs it's own thread)

[CuseCubFan69]

This board is so depressing. TC3 tried to inject some optimism and he gets ripped for it. I used to really enjoy reading everyone's views, because they were interesting and unpredictable. Now, the opinions are terribly predictable and almost always negative. I don't even have to be near a computer to know that practically everyone on here is making fun of Hendry's weight or calling Dusty Baker stupid. A little optimism goes a long way, isn't that why we are Cubs fans?

 

This is a message board. When Hendry signed Nomar people were happy. When Hendry got Barrett people were happy. When Hendry traded Sosa people were happy. When Hendry signed Burnitz people where unhappy.

 

It is completly unreasonable for people to be happy about Jones given his career arc, the Cubs payroll, and need.

 

A little optimism does go a long way. Blindness however, only gets one to walk into walls over and over again.

 

Being unhappy about the way the offseason has gone is one thing, but the level of melodramatic overreaction and blanket criticism in recent weeks has been ridiculous.

 

Sure Jones sucks, and it is disappointing we didn't do better. Hendry has done a poor job, and I think we could do better than him, too. The upcoming season is going to be harder than it needed to be. But people are dismissing even the hint of optimism as lunacy and declaring Hendry the antichrist and the 2006 season as dead already. It's just silly. It's like mob panic.

 

Welcome to Springfield U.S.A!

[CubinNY]

This board is so depressing. TC3 tried to inject some optimism and he gets ripped for it. I used to really enjoy reading everyone's views, because they were interesting and unpredictable. Now, the opinions are terribly predictable and almost always negative. I don't even have to be near a computer to know that practically everyone on here is making fun of Hendry's weight or calling Dusty Baker stupid. A little optimism goes a long way, isn't that why we are Cubs fans?

 

This is a message board. When Hendry signed Nomar people were happy. When Hendry got Barrett people were happy. When Hendry traded Sosa people were happy. When Hendry signed Burnitz people where unhappy.

 

It is completly unreasonable for people to be happy about Jones given his career arc, the Cubs payroll, and need.

 

A little optimism does go a long way. Blindness however, only gets one to walk into walls over and over again.

 

Being unhappy about the way the offseason has gone is one thing, but the level of melodramatic overreaction and blanket criticism in recent weeks has been ridiculous.

 

Sure Jones sucks, and it is disappointing we didn't do better. Hendry has done a poor job, and I think we could do better than him, too. The upcoming season is going to be harder than it needed to be. But people are dismissing even the hint of optimism as lunacy and declaring Hendry the antichrist and the 2006 season as dead already. It's just silly. It's like mob panic.

 

The answer is simple then.

 

Instead of complaining don't open or read any thread that contains things you don't like.

 

No one is making you open a thread or read a post.

[UK1679666180]

What you're getting with Jones...

 

Athletic

Aggressive hitter

Line drive swing

Pull power

Good FB hitter

Avg. instincts defensively

Decent baserunner

Not a great off-speed hitter

Will expand his strike zone w/2 strikes

Strong arm that needs better accuracy

[CuseCubFan69]

What you're getting with Jones...

 

Athletic

Aggressive hitter

Line drive swing

Pull power

Good FB hitter

Avg. instincts defensively

Decent baserunner

Not a great off-speed hitter

Will expand his strike zone w/2 strikes

Strong arm that needs better accuracy

 

With the wind at Wrigley isn't being a linedrive hitter a good thing?

[CubinNY]

What you're getting with Jones...

 

Athletic

Aggressive hitter

Line drive swing

Pull power

Good FB hitter

Avg. instincts defensively

Decent baserunner

Not a great off-speed hitter

Will expand his strike zone w/2 strikes

Strong arm that needs better accuracy

 

With the wind at Wrigley isn't being a linedrive hitter a good thing?

 

Being a line drive hitter is good in any ballpark.

[XZero771679666304]

This board is so depressing. TC3 tried to inject some optimism and he gets ripped for it. I used to really enjoy reading everyone's views, because they were interesting and unpredictable. Now, the opinions are terribly predictable and almost always negative. I don't even have to be near a computer to know that practically everyone on here is making fun of Hendry's weight or calling Dusty Baker stupid. A little optimism goes a long way, isn't that why we are Cubs fans?

 

This is a message board. When Hendry signed Nomar people were happy. When Hendry got Barrett people were happy. When Hendry traded Sosa people were happy. When Hendry signed Burnitz people where unhappy.

 

It is completly unreasonable for people to be happy about Jones given his career arc, the Cubs payroll, and need.

 

A little optimism does go a long way. Blindness however, only gets one to walk into walls over and over again.

 

Being unhappy about the way the offseason has gone is one thing, but the level of melodramatic overreaction and blanket criticism in recent weeks has been ridiculous.

 

Sure Jones sucks, and it is disappointing we didn't do better. Hendry has done a poor job, and I think we could do better than him, too. The upcoming season is going to be harder than it needed to be. But people are dismissing even the hint of optimism as lunacy and declaring Hendry the antichrist and the 2006 season as dead already. It's just silly. It's like mob panic.

 

The answer is simple then.

 

Instead of complaining don't open or read any thread that contains things you don't like.

 

No one is making you open a thread or read a post.

 

And no one is making anyone come here and vent. When people start getting antagonized for being optimistic, and the hyper pessimism is in nearly every thread, that "you don't have to read it" stuff goes right out the window.

 

Everyone here is entitled to a decent atmosphere.

[UK1679666180]

It's always good that he has a line drive swing, there are times especially ahead in the count where he'll uppercut his wing.

 

But, last year he was an extreme ground ball hitter. If he hits like that at Wrigley, he'll struggle to hit over .240. This isn't the Metrodome of the early part of this decade, those that get past the 2b in Minnesota will become routine outs at Wrigley.

[harrdb00]

This board is so depressing. TC3 tried to inject some optimism and he gets ripped for it. I used to really enjoy reading everyone's views, because they were interesting and unpredictable. Now, the opinions are terribly predictable and almost always negative. I don't even have to be near a computer to know that practically everyone on here is making fun of Hendry's weight or calling Dusty Baker stupid. A little optimism goes a long way, isn't that why we are Cubs fans?

 

I think of the board as a stock and it goes up and down. Right now it's on a down cycle but it will be up again soon!!! :D

 

I know it's a message board and I know that it has been an optimistic place before. However, right now, this place is negative and sneers at any positive posts, like TC3's. I'm just disappointed that the reactions are so predictably negative.

 

I know I have the option to not come here, thank you. As a result, I do visit the board less than I have in the past, but I do think it is the best Cubs message board available with the most knowledgeable fans.

[Magnetic Curses]

This board is so depressing. TC3 tried to inject some optimism and he gets ripped for it. I used to really enjoy reading everyone's views, because they were interesting and unpredictable. Now, the opinions are terribly predictable and almost always negative. I don't even have to be near a computer to know that practically everyone on here is making fun of Hendry's weight or calling Dusty Baker stupid. A little optimism goes a long way, isn't that why we are Cubs fans?

 

i don't think he's being ripped for being optimistic, he's being criticized for posting something idiotic.

 

1. the word "clutch", when concerning anything baseball, is a myth. a clutch hitter is a unicorn. generally what you find when someone says they've found a "clutch hitter" is a horse with a horn duct-taped to their head. while they may look pretty, the horn will fall off and have to be re-taped at some point. eventually, the drunken circus owner will get tired of re-taping the dang thing and ship the old, flatulent swayback off to the glue factory. the horse will be booed for it's troubles.

 

2. "biasness" is not a word.

 

3. burnitz is better than jones in every facet of the game. he's not as fast, but he's better defensively. burnitz was the best defensive RFer in the national league last year, so proposing that jones offers any sort of defensive upgrade is wrong. he may be offer stasis, but not an upgrade.

 

he consistently says that burntiz to jones comparisons are crap, and angrily at that. he doesn't realize that jones is the far inferior player when looking at stats. people who tell you to throw stats out the window KNOW NOTHING ABOUT BASEBALL, nothing. you can never throw stats out the window in such a statistical game.

 

every bit of info we have screams that burnitz is superior. saying he's better is NOT being pessimistic, it's being realistic, and intellectually honest.

 

4.

JJ has 737 career strikeouts in 3492 career AB’s, that’s a 21.1% K rate (yes, a stat I invented by myself). Patterson has 552 career K’s in 2176 career AB’s for a 25.3% K rate.

 

in order to get an accurate K rate, you have to factor in all Plate Appearnces, not just AB's. the guy must have forgotten that AB's do not include walks or HBPs. giving people more of a reason to lay into him.

 

5. language like "getting the big hit" or "pumping up the team" is just as useless as the unicorn or...the original post. everyone is now dumber for having read it.

 

i can give you reasons to be optimistic:

 

1. Jones had an IsoD around .070 last season, which is pretty good. if his IsoD continues to be in that neighborhood and his BA comes up to 2002/2003-type numbers, we could see a .300/.375 year from him, which would make me very happy, regardless of his SLG.

 

2. We still have room for another pitcher, and the money to sign millwood. the sox won with a pitching model last season, it can be done.

 

3. murton, pierre, and cedeno are all upgrades at their respective positions to what we had last year. barrett, lee, ramirez, walker, pierre, cedeno and murton have all shown the ability to get on base. that's 7 guys who can possibly put up +.350 OBPs. if they can all come close, we'll win a lot of games, regardless of what jones does or doesn't do.

 

4. even though he grossly overpaid, hendry still improved the bullpen drastically.

 

it's foolish to make up reasons to be optimistic when there are some good reasons right in front of you. the original post in this thread is maybe the dumbest thing i've ever seen, it's irrational and based in old language that's hardly useful to the modern baseball fan. that's why he got criticized, not because he's optimistic, hell, he wasn't being optimistic anyway, he was angrily grinding an axe with people he doesn't agree with, and using outdated and incoherent figures to do it.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The author and his opinion are welcome, but to get upset that others criticized it is ridiculous. Should I not be allowed to post my criticism of the post just because others will also agree with me.

 

And yes, there may be a pessimistic view around here....but some would simply say it is realistic. While I have been seen as one being critical to Dusty and Hendry's offseason moves, I was on the other side of the fence prior to 2005 season. (If the search function was working, I'd show you for proof.)

 

If someone can't handle having their opinion critcized and dissected, I'd suggest not offering it for public consumption.

[fromthestretch]

I know it's a message board and I know that it has been an optimistic place before. However, right now, this place is negative and sneers at any positive posts, like TC3's. I'm just disappointed that the reactions are so predictably negative.

 

I know I have the option to not come here, thank you. As a result, I do visit the board less than I have in the past, but I do think it is the best Cubs message board available with the most knowledgeable fans.

 

While I think everyone appreciates the effort that TC3 put into his article, it's not reasonable to expect readers to refrain from commenting on it. I, for one, certainly do not agree with many of the points he tried to make in his post.

 

That said, I do agree that it was unreasonable to ask for the thread to be locked.

 

There's nothing wrong with being optimistic, just as there's nothing wrong with being realistic. The Hendry bashing is a bit much from some people, especially when it comes to his weight. I frankly don't care if the man weighs 400 pounds and is a heart-attack waiting to happen. But the man certainly deserves a lot of criticism for what can, in even the best light, be described as some very questionable moves. And calling some of the moves "questionable" is being kind IMO.

 

I think everyone realizes that there is a chance that the Cubs could reach the postseason in 2006. The main argument is how remote of a possibility that is. Personally, I don't think the chances are all that great.

[Diffusion]

The more K's you have, the fewer outs come from balls in play, the higher your BABIP is, making it harder to sustain.

 

Absolutely incorrect.

 

The number of strikeouts you have has absolutely no direct bearing on whether, if you put a ball in play, that ball goes for a hit. How could it? Strikeouts and balls in play are mutually exclusive.

 

I can see the fuzzy math that is leading you to make the above incorrect statement. You're thinking of a hypothetical Player A, that in 5X at-bats (X being a very large number, such that sample size isn't an issue) doesn't hit a home run or a sacrifice fly (for the sake of keeping things simple, including them would make no difference), strikes out 2X times, makes 2X ball in play outs and amasses X hits. A .333 BABIP. Now you're thinking of a hypothetical Player B, that in 5X at-bats doesn't hit a home run or a sac fly, strikes out X times, makes 3X ball in play outs and amasses X hits. A .250 BABIP. Therefore, you're arguing, strikeouts lead to higher BABIP.

 

Rubbish. The entire difference in BABIP is based on the completely unfounded assumption that every single extra ball in play that Player B manages instead of a Player A strikeout results in that ball in play being converted into an out. The reason that the BABIP changes is because you're changing it, you're simply making it the case that Player B hits .000 on the X extra balls in play! Obviously that's going to supress a guy's BABIP, if on X balls in play you just automatically award him with a 6-3 groundout! The drop in BABIP is entirely caused by that, and has nothing to do with the strikeouts.

 

Player B only exists as a hypothetical, because no player is ever going to go X balls in play (where X is a very large number) and not get a single hit. What happens if you don't accidentally fiddle the numbers in your head is you end up with a player C, that in 5X at-bats doesn't hit a home run or a sac fly, strikes out X times, makes 8X/3 ball in play outs and amasses 4X/3 hits. A .333 BABIP still, only a higher average (.267 as opposed to Player A's .200).

 

That's why it's fair to say that strikeouts suppress batting average. But they have absolutely nothing to do directly with BABIP.

 

That said, as I mentioned before, on the whole strikeouts do have a slight indirect effect upon BABIP, in that players that strike out more, on the whole, have slightly higher BABIPs. That's simply because major league players that strike out tend to have power (because players that strike out a lot and don't have any power, unless they walk a ridiculous amount, aren't major leaguers), and power hitters tend to swing harder and thus hit the ball harder and further, meaning it is generally fielded less successfully. But striking out more isn't leading to a higher BABIP, just as striking out more isn't leading to power. It's just that they're all affected by the same thing: players "swinging for the fences" (sadly that phrase comes with a lot of negative connotations, but none are here intended).

[fromthestretch]

For what it's worth, I did hear a sound clip this morning on XM. It was Jacque Jones talking about what he brings to the Cubs. Most of it was the typical "happy to be here" stuff. But he did mention his walk rate. He talked about how he is working to become a more patient hitter, had a career high in walks in 2005, and is hoping to build on that in 2006.

 

While I'm still not happy about the signing, it's nice to hear a player actually recognize that he needs to be a more patient hitter.

[Diffusion]

For what it's worth, I did hear a sound clip this morning on XM. It was Jacque Jones talking about what he brings to the Cubs. Most of it was the typical "happy to be here" stuff. But he did mention his walk rate. He talked about how he is working to become a more patient hitter, had a career high in walks in 2005, and is hoping to build on that in 2006.

 

While I'm still not happy about the signing, it's nice to hear a player actually recognize that he needs to be a more patient hitter.

 

For the record...

 

Jacque Jones

Age 24 season, 1999, 16 non-intentional walks, 1 intentional walk in 347 PA

Age 25 season, 2000, 22 non-intentional walks, 4 intentional walks in 550 PA

Age 26 season, 2001, 37 non-intentional walks, 2 intentional walks in 519 PA

Age 27 season, 2002, 35 non-intentional walks, 2 intentional walks in 626 PA

Age 28 season, 2003, 19 non-intentional walks, 2 intentional walks in 548 PA

Age 29 season, 2004, 38 non-intentional walks, 2 intentional walks in 608 PA

Age 30 season, 2005, 39 non-intentional walks, 12 intentional walks in 585 PA

 

Not really seeing enormous strides forward here. Technically he did indeed set a career high even in non-intentional walks, but he did so by 1 non-intentional walk (albeit in 23 fewer PAs). He also put up just 2 fewer non-intentional walks in 2001 (in 66 fewer PAs).

Edited December 21, 2005 by Diffusion

[Magnetic Curses]

For what it's worth, I did hear a sound clip this morning on XM. It was Jacque Jones talking about what he brings to the Cubs. Most of it was the typical "happy to be here" stuff. But he did mention his walk rate. He talked about how he is working to become a more patient hitter, had a career high in walks in 2005, and is hoping to build on that in 2006.

 

While I'm still not happy about the signing, it's nice to hear a player actually recognize that he needs to be a more patient hitter.

 

like i said, if his IsoD stays the same and his average returns to the .300 neighborhood, he could be a pretty good addition.

 

now, that's too many ifs to sign a guy to a 3 year deal, though.

[fromthestretch]

For what it's worth, I did hear a sound clip this morning on XM. It was Jacque Jones talking about what he brings to the Cubs. Most of it was the typical "happy to be here" stuff. But he did mention his walk rate. He talked about how he is working to become a more patient hitter, had a career high in walks in 2005, and is hoping to build on that in 2006.

 

While I'm still not happy about the signing, it's nice to hear a player actually recognize that he needs to be a more patient hitter.

 

like i said, if his IsoD stays the same and his average returns to the .300 neighborhood, he could be a pretty good addition.

 

now, that's too many ifs to sign a guy to a 3 year deal, though.

 

I agree 100%.

[Guest]

It's always good that he has a line drive swing, there are times especially ahead in the count where he'll uppercut his wing.

 

But, last year he was an extreme ground ball hitter. If he hits like that at Wrigley, he'll struggle to hit over .240. This isn't the Metrodome of the early part of this decade, those that get past the 2b in Minnesota will become routine outs at Wrigley.

The numbers just don't support the notion that Jones has a LD swing or that all those GB last year were out of the ordinary for him.

 

From 2003-2005, Jones hit line drives 12.9, 15.4, and 13.2% of his swings that made contact, respectively. That's well below the league average for full-time players, which was at 18.9% in 2005. His ground ball rate wasn't much higher in 2005 than it had been in previous years, either; In 2005 59.7% of his hits were ground balls, compared to 56.2 and 61.2% in 2004 and 2003. (With the league average being 48.6%.)

 

Jones doesn't hit many line drives and hits many, many ground balls. He doesn't possess the great speed required to turn many of those GB into hits in Wrigley's long grass. Coupled with his high strikeout ratio, I think a batting average in the .250 range is probably about what should be expected out of Jones. The good news is that his improved walk rate looks to be sustainable as he's much more patient now than he was a few years ago. (His take/swing ratio has improved from .80 in 2002 to 1.02 in 2005.)

 

Still, is a .250/.320/.440 line really what we'd like to see out of our starting right fielder for the next three years?

[louisvillecub]

For what it's worth, I did hear a sound clip this morning on XM. It was Jacque Jones talking about what he brings to the Cubs. Most of it was the typical "happy to be here" stuff. But he did mention his walk rate. He talked about how he is working to become a more patient hitter, had a career high in walks in 2005, and is hoping to build on that in 2006.

 

While I'm still not happy about the signing, it's nice to hear a player actually recognize that he needs to be a more patient hitter.

 

Well, I'm sure Dusty will lecture him about the evils of clogging the bases.

[JStaff17]

"I wish people would accept this team for what we are, not what we are not. This is our team."

 

Coach Norman Dale, Hoosiers

[RynoRules]

The author and his opinion are welcome, but to get upset that others criticized it is ridiculous. Should I not be allowed to post my criticism of the post just because others will also agree with me.

 

And yes, there may be a pessimistic view around here....but some would simply say it is realistic. While I have been seen as one being critical to Dusty and Hendry's offseason moves, I was on the other side of the fence prior to 2005 season. (If the search function was working, I'd show you for proof.)

 

If someone can't handle having their opinion critcized and dissected, I'd suggest not offering it for public consumption.

 

Yeah, but one member said the thread should be locked b/c of its optimisim and another called it "idiotic". I don't think eitherof those reactions fall within the spirit of this bd.

[CuseCubFan69]

"I wish people would accept this team for what we are, not what we are not. This is our team."

 

Coach Norman Dale, Hoosiers

 

And they became a great team after adding Jimmy. :D

[RynoRules]

"I wish people would accept this team for what we are, not what we are not. This is our team."

 

Coach Norman Dale, Hoosiers

 

And they became a great team after adding Jimmy. :D

 

Jimmy = Tejada :?:

[E.J.]

The author and his opinion are welcome, but to get upset that others criticized it is ridiculous. Should I not be allowed to post my criticism of the post just because others will also agree with me.

 

And yes, there may be a pessimistic view around here....but some would simply say it is realistic. While I have been seen as one being critical to Dusty and Hendry's offseason moves, I was on the other side of the fence prior to 2005 season. (If the search function was working, I'd show you for proof.)

 

If someone can't handle having their opinion critcized and dissected, I'd suggest not offering it for public consumption.

 

Yeah, but one member said the thread should be locked b/c of its optimisim and another called it "idiotic". I don't think eitherof those reactions fall within the spirit of this bd.

 

Where did I say it should be locked because of it's optimism? We already had a Jones thread going and I didn't understand why we needed another one, especially one where it said Jones was a good signing because "he was high energy and pumped up the team". I have no problem with people having optimism, but throw out some numbers to support your claim. Don't just tell me he's a good signing because he's high energy and pumps up the team, and that he runs the bases well. That doesn't help this team. High OBP is what this team needed, not a guy who's good at scoring from first base on a double.

[Magnetic Curses]

The author and his opinion are welcome, but to get upset that others criticized it is ridiculous. Should I not be allowed to post my criticism of the post just because others will also agree with me.

 

And yes, there may be a pessimistic view around here....but some would simply say it is realistic. While I have been seen as one being critical to Dusty and Hendry's offseason moves, I was on the other side of the fence prior to 2005 season. (If the search function was working, I'd show you for proof.)

 

If someone can't handle having their opinion critcized and dissected, I'd suggest not offering it for public consumption.

 

Yeah, but one member said the thread should be locked b/c of its optimisim and another called it "idiotic". I don't think eitherof those reactions fall within the spirit of this bd.

 

the post WAS idiotic. not for it's optimism, though.

 

and i don't reacll willis actually saying that it should be locked due to it's optimism.

 

Ryno, i want to you to read this real good, i like you, but actually try to understand what i'm saying:

 

willis was saying it should be locked because it was so plainly incendiary. i was saying that the post was idiotic because it WAS IDIOTIC.

 

not because it was optimistic, not at all. my response offered reasons to be optimistic without being idiotic but obviously you didn't read it all the way through.

 

it's being criticized because it was a stupid, incendiary, and BASELESS (most importantly) argument. it was called out because it was a post with an insulting agenda. if he can insult the intelligence of many on this board, i reserve the right to insult his post.

[goonys evil twin]

This board is so depressing. TC3 tried to inject some optimism and he gets ripped for it. I used to really enjoy reading everyone's views, because they were interesting and unpredictable. Now, the opinions are terribly predictable and almost always negative. I don't even have to be near a computer to know that practically everyone on here is making fun of Hendry's weight or calling Dusty Baker stupid. A little optimism goes a long way, isn't that why we are Cubs fans?

 

Did you take a second to consider that the person who started this thread, started out by trying to ridicule the comparisons and characterizations of Jacque Jones that have been laid out by other posters? You seem to take offense to people ripping apart his argument. But his entire post was based on ripping apart other people's arguments? Do you expect him to be able to write whatever he wants, and not have people refute any and all claims they felt were inaccurate? Because if you do, then you better chastise everybody who is happy with this deal that tries to rip apart the remarks of those who are unhappy.

 

If you see a "mob mentality" on a Cubs related topic, and disagree. Feel free to state why you think everybody else is so wrong. But don't be surprised when your claims are ripped to shreds, especially when they contain some rather dubious claims.