White Sox get Vazquez according to ESPN

[NukeLaloosh]

So... KW is a better GM than Hendry even though we'd crucify Hendry if he traded away Pie for a pitcher with a 4.4 ERA and due $24M over two years. Not to mention taking on the majority of a HUGE contract to a clearly aging 35-year old DH with three years left on his deal (at least..., I can't remember).

 

KW's moves last season were extremely lucky in how they worked out but made fiscal sense. Now his moves need to be lucky and don't make fiscal sense.

[RynoRules]

The only thing about giving away Chris Young is they have two other top prospects at the CF position. No, I would personally not do it but it does strengthen their rotation and he did trade from depth.

 

Thanks. Thats pretty much my point.

 

BTW, does this mean that AZ now has an overload in the OF?

[RynoRules]

So... KW is a better GM than Hendry even though we'd crucify Hendry if he traded away Pie for a pitcher with a 4.4 ERA and due $24M over two years. Not to mention taking on the majority of a HUGE contract to a clearly aging 35-year old DH with three years left on his deal (at least..., I can't remember).

 

KW's moves last season were extremely lucky in how they worked out but made fiscal sense. Now his moves need to be lucky and don't make fiscal sense.

 

You cannot compare our prospect situation to the Sox. Its completely different; the Sox have 3 CF prospects; we have one.

[E.J.]

Levine said the White Sox are thinking of trading one of their starters (McCarthy, Garland), Uribe, and minor leaguers to the Orioles for Tejada. If they get Tejada...I don't even want to think about it.

[USSoccer]

Levine said the White Sox are thinking of trading one of their starters (McCarthy, Garland), Uribe, and minor leaguers to the Orioles for Tejada. If they get Tejada...I don't even want to think about it.

 

So Williams got Vasquez for depth, and they trade the 6th year arb eligible Garland and others to Baltimore for Tejada....

 

That's a nice plan.

[RynoRules]

Levine said the White Sox are thinking of trading one of their starters (McCarthy, Garland), Uribe, and minor leaguers to the Orioles for Tejada. If they get Tejada...I don't even want to think about it.

 

As I said in the other thread, I will be riding the Fire Hendry BandWGN if the Sox slip in and get Miggy.

[Kingmanarama]

No. 2 starter on any team? So he's better than 2 of Wood, Prior, and Zambrano? ok. enough Vazquez love.

 

He was a decent pick up, but no need to go crazy with the Williams love b/c of it. Williams is destroying the ChiSox future with his love for parting with top prospects. That's fine with me. We'll have to deal with them being good for a maximum of 4-5 years and then his decisions will take their toll.

 

You wouldn't trade a few top prospects if it meant that the Cubs could contend for the World Series for 4 or 5 years? Really?

 

I've felt for a long time that Kenny Williams gives up way too much minor league talent via trades. But, somehow, the prospects he's given up have yet to have much Major League success. So at this point, it seems reasonable to assume that the White Sox might just be very good at evaluating and projecting their minor leaguers.

 

Now, even if the White Sox lose both Garland and Contreras to free agency after this season, they'll still have four very good starting pitchers in 2007. Whatever else Williams is doing, he's certainly not ignoring the future. Looks to me like he's planning for it.

[neely crenshaw]

Would you guys be ok with trading Pie+Rusch for Vazquez? I dont think I would, and that's what this trade looks like to me.

don't know but would you have liked to trade cpatt and rusch two years ago for vasquez? yeah we would.

 

let me get this straight we are an organization that hasn't won a title in 97 years and we are worried about being good over the long haul instead of going balls out to win a title(or in the sox case ANOTHER title) please i have had too many years of crap baseball, can we go ahead and try to win one. we can worry about 2 after we win the first one. also our wonderful prospects have done really well so far...good thing we hung onto patterson,guzman,mitre(until now),wellmeyer,brownlee,christensen.....and so on. we have developed z and drafted prior(we did not develop him)....

[YearofDaCubs]

Levine said the White Sox are thinking of trading one of their starters (McCarthy, Garland), Uribe, and minor leaguers to the Orioles for Tejada. If they get Tejada...I don't even want to think about it.

 

As I said in the other thread, I will be riding the Fire Hendry BandWGN if the Sox slip in and get Miggy.

If it's one team that would pull the trigger on Tejada it would be the WSox.

[imb]

Would you guys be ok with trading Pie+Rusch for Vazquez? I dont think I would, and that's what this trade looks like to me.

don't know but would you have liked to trade cpatt and rusch two years ago for vasquez? yeah we would.

 

let me get this straight we are an organization that hasn't won a title in 97 years and we are worried about being good over the long haul instead of going balls out to win a title(or in the sox case ANOTHER title) please i have had too many years of crap baseball, can we go ahead and try to win one. we can worry about 2 after we win the first one. also our wonderful prospects have done really well so far...good thing we hung onto patterson,guzman,mitre(until now),wellmeyer,brownlee,christensen.....and so on. we have developed z and drafted prior(we did not develop him)....

 

Vazquez of two years ago isnt Vazquez of today.

[goonys evil twin]

He was a decent pick up, but no need to go crazy with the Williams love b/c of it. Williams is destroying the ChiSox future with his love for parting with top prospects. That's fine with me. We'll have to deal with them being good for a maximum of 4-5 years and then his decisions will take their toll.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with trading away prospects so you can contend for any 4-5 year period. That is especially true if you keep coming up with new prospects. If the White Sox seem to keep trading away top prospects, that just means they keep restocking their farm with top prospects. I would kill to have a GM make moves that help the team win the World Series, and I wouldn't care what prospects were lost in the process. It's not like the Sox have a barren cupboard, they do expect to start another top CF prospect out there next year, so this guy was a bit redundent. If the Cubs had Pie and another Pie, I'd trade one of them in a heartbeat.

[CuseCubFan69]

You could have had Vasquez 30 cents on the dollar last off season. I think this is a very nice trade for Arizona and now maybe they can trade one of those young OF's to the Cubs.

[Jon]

KW's love for Vazquez topped Hendry's desire to get a Pierre-type leadoff hitter. I'm not sure what their payroll situation is, so they may not be able to pay the current market prices for a free agent pitcher this year or next, but if I'd be throwing things in response to this deal if I was a White Sox fan. At the very least, surely he could've done better with Young than Vazquez. Edited December 14, 2005 by Jon

[rawaction]

You could have had Vasquez 30 cents on the dollar last off season. I think this is a very nice trade for Arizona and now maybe they can trade one of those young OF's to the Cubs.

 

Didn't think of that. They now have a ton of OFs in Arizona.

[AI]

No. 2 starter on any team? So he's better than 2 of Wood, Prior, and Zambrano? ok. enough Vazquez love.

 

He was a decent pick up, but no need to go crazy with the Williams love b/c of it. Williams is destroying the ChiSox future with his love for parting with top prospects. That's fine with me. We'll have to deal with them being good for a maximum of 4-5 years and then his decisions will take their toll.

 

Last time I checked, they won the World Series with that approach. Frankly, I would take one ring if it meant parting with Pie, Hill, and whomever else. Its not like this approach didn't yield positive results.

[Jon]

No. 2 starter on any team? So he's better than 2 of Wood, Prior, and Zambrano? ok. enough Vazquez love.

 

He was a decent pick up, but no need to go crazy with the Williams love b/c of it. Williams is destroying the ChiSox future with his love for parting with top prospects. That's fine with me. We'll have to deal with them being good for a maximum of 4-5 years and then his decisions will take their toll.

 

Last time I checked, they won the World Series with that approach. Frankly, I would take one ring if it meant parting with Pie, Hill, and whomever else. Its not like this approach didn't yield positive results.

But more often than not, you're just going to be stuck in rebuilding mode a couple of years later. Trading away top prospects for middle of the rotation starters and counting on them to have career years is not a strategy that's going to consistently pay off.

 

I'd much rather have a GM who knows how to use prospects wisely, understands what is required to field a productive offense, and doesn't like Neifi Perez starting.

 

Jim Hendry may not meet those requirements, but neither does KW. And he'd be 0-3 if he had Neifi Perez.

[goonys evil twin]

I'd much rather have a GM who knows how to use prospects wisely, understands what is required to field a productive offense, and doesn't like Neifi Perez starting.

 

Jim Hendry may not meet those requirements, but neither does KW. And he'd be 0-3 if he had Neifi Perez.

 

KW has used his prospects very wisely. He's used them in trades that made his team much better over the past couple years. Hendry hasn't done that. What people tend to forget is the Sox and Cubs were in very similar situations in 2003 and 2004. They were barely over .500. Hendry sat on his hands and tried to let nature take its course, hoping for development and health to improve the team. Williams traded for and signed better players. We can pick apart any individual deal all we want. But the individual deal does not matter. It's the whole package that matters, and Williams has clearly done a better job than Hendry in putting together the whole package. I hate the Pierre trade. But Hendry can make it work if he follows it up with deals that significantly improve the gaping hole in RF, solidifies the bench and settles the rotation.

[Nobody youd want to know]

You could have had Vasquez 30 cents on the dollar last off season. I think this is a very nice trade for Arizona and now maybe they can trade one of those young OF's to the Cubs.

 

Unfortunately, AZ's going to be looking to deal one of their OLD, HIGHLY-PAID OFs, not a young, cheap one.

 

Tho I think Shawn Green would look good in blue pinstripes next year.

[JeffH]

You could have had Vasquez 30 cents on the dollar last off season. I think this is a very nice trade for Arizona and now maybe they can trade one of those young OF's to the Cubs.

 

Unfortunately, AZ's going to be looking to deal one of their OLD, HIGHLY-PAID OFs, not a young, cheap one.

 

Tho I think Shawn Green would look good in blue pinstripes next year.

 

They can't trade Luis Gonzalez without his OK and they can trade Shawn Green to only three teams without his OK.

[Nobody youd want to know]

You could have had Vasquez 30 cents on the dollar last off season. I think this is a very nice trade for Arizona and now maybe they can trade one of those young OF's to the Cubs.

 

Unfortunately, AZ's going to be looking to deal one of their OLD, HIGHLY-PAID OFs, not a young, cheap one.

 

Tho I think Shawn Green would look good in blue pinstripes next year.

 

They can't trade Luis Gonzalez without his OK and they can trade Shawn Green to only three teams without his OK.

 

I'm willing to bet the proper incentive$ would get Green or Gozalez to give their OKs...

[YearofDaCubs]

I'd much rather have a GM who knows how to use prospects wisely, understands what is required to field a productive offense, and doesn't like Neifi Perez starting.

 

Jim Hendry may not meet those requirements, but neither does KW. And he'd be 0-3 if he had Neifi Perez.

 

KW has used his prospects very wisely. He's used them in trades that made his team much better over the past couple years. Hendry hasn't done that. What people tend to forget is the Sox and Cubs were in very similar situations in 2003 and 2004. They were barely over .500. Hendry sat on his hands and tried to let nature take its course, hoping for development and health to improve the team. Williams traded for and signed better players. We can pick apart any individual deal all we want. But the individual deal does not matter. It's the whole package that matters, and Williams has clearly done a better job than Hendry in putting together the whole package. I hate the Pierre trade. But Hendry can make it work if he follows it up with deals that significantly improve the gaping hole in RF, solidifies the bench and settles the rotation.

As far as I'm concerned as it stands right now Hendry hasn't done enough for us to even make the playoffs.

[Andy]

Bad enough the Sox trade their very worst starter and get one that's better, but if they get Tejada I am going to punch something (preferably a White Sox fan when they rub it in my face).

[Jon]

KW has used his prospects very wisely. He's used them in trades that made his team much better over the past couple years. Hendry hasn't done that. What people tend to forget is the Sox and Cubs were in very similar situations in 2003 and 2004. They were barely over .500. Hendry sat on his hands and tried to let nature take its course, hoping for development and health to improve the team. Williams traded for and signed better players. We can pick apart any individual deal all we want. But the individual deal does not matter. It's the whole package that matters, and Williams has clearly done a better job than Hendry in putting together the whole package. I hate the Pierre trade. But Hendry can make it work if he follows it up with deals that significantly improve the gaping hole in RF, solidifies the bench and settles the rotation.

A look at some of their key players:

 

Dustin Hermanson

-Free agent signing

-4.00+ ERA every year since 1998, including a 5.46 ERA out of the bullpen in 2003 for St. Louis.

-2.04 ERA in 2005

 

Scott Podsednik and Luis Vizcaino

-Traded with a PTBNL from Milwaukee for Carlos Lee in a cost-cutting move

-Podsednik: career year in 2003, bad in 2004, nearly as bad in 2005 (.700 OPS, 29 XBHs, 72% SB percentage, 25 RBIs, 80 runs)

-Vizcaino: all over the place in his career, ranging from terrible to good. Pretty decent in 2004 and 2005 after a horrible 2003

-Carlos Lee had a very good year

 

Jon Garland

-Already under contract but waiting on his development

-4.50+ ERA from 2002-2004

-3.50 ERA and an improved walk rate in 2005

 

Neal Cotts

-Already under contract but waiting on his development

-5.65 ERA in 56 games in 2004

-1.94 ERA in 69 games in 2005

 

Cliff Polite

-Already under contract

-4.38 ERA in 2004

-2.01 ERA in 2005

 

Bobby Jenks

-Picked up as minor league free agent for the 2005 season, waiting on his development

-32 games, 39.1 IP, 2.75 ERA

 

Mark Buehrle

-Already under contract

-Career year in 2005, but not terrible far from his average year

 

Jose Contreras

-Acquired from New York in a trade for Loaiza

-Good debut in 2003, bad in 2004

-"Career year" in 2005 with a 3.61 ERA and a K/BB ratio similar to his 2004 numbers

 

Freddy Garcia

-Acquired from Seattle with catcher Ben Davis for Miguel Olivo, top prospect Jeremy Reed, and minor league Michael Morse in 2004

-Average year from Garcia in 2005

-Olivo has been very inconsistent with flashes of good hitting

-Jeremy Reed struggled in his first full season

-Michael Morse was decent in 200+ big league ABs

 

 

This may not be a great sample, but unless KW has psychic powers, I don't see where he deserves that much credit. I didn't pay that much attention to the offense because frankly, theirs wasn't very good. They somehow scored more runs than the Cubs offense despite the Cubs leading them in doubles, TB, BA, OBP, SLG, and OPS. The White Sox only had a very slight advantage in triples and HRs. The only significant advantage for the White Sox was RBIs.

 

EDIT: How much of it was luck on the part of KW? I, for one, am not going to let his team's success in 2005 change my opinion of him.

Edited December 14, 2005 by Jon

[Andy]

We all know that Jenks was good because he lit his arm on fire. We need to teach our young relievers how to do that. :wink:

[goonys evil twin]

This may not be a great sample, but unless KW has psychic powers, I don't see where he deserves that much credit. I didn't pay that much attention to the offense because frankly, theirs wasn't very good. They somehow scored more runs than the Cubs offense despite the Cubs leading them in doubles, TB, BA, OBP, SLG, and OPS. The White Sox only had a very slight advantage in triples and HRs. The only significant advantage for the White Sox was RBIs.

 

Was it all luck?

 

Way to gloss over the points that don't support your theory.

 

What about Iguchi, a Japanese player. Hendry and the Cubs haven't even thought about bringing in Japanese players. If you call the $8m Lee's line of .265/.324/.487 very good for a LF, then Iguchi's .278/.342/.438 at 2.3m from 2B is great. Iguchi, Pods and Dye combined to make less than Lee, while Dye (.274/.333/.512) outperformed Lee on his own.

 

Like I said, individual deals can be debated forever. But they don't matter. What matters is the total package. Williams has done a much better job with the total package than Hendry, and he's done more to improve his team this offseason than Hendry, and he apparantly still has plenty of youth to both add to next years roster plus trade for more parts. And Kenny did all this with a payroll $25m below Hendry's. That right there is a huge fact that people like to pretend doesn't exist. Williams has to make due with an average payroll, he's had an above average team every year, and built a great one last year. Hendry has had a top 5 payroll every year, and has had either an above or below average team as a result, never greatness, and it doesn't look to be coming. Hendry's extra $25m can be used to bring in a sure thing corner OF and allow you not to take the downgrade from Lee to Pods. Hendry's extra money should be an asset. So far it has not been.