Cubs Acquire Juan Pierre

[Diffusion]

Still waiting for confirmation from someone that a pick off is considered a Caught Stealing?

 

Confirmed.

 

Cool. 2 confirmations and 2 denials. Which is it?

 

Did Juan Pierre get caught stealing 2nd or 3rd 17 times last season, or was he picked off 1st base half of those times?

 

Or, was he caught stealing 17 times and picked off maybe another 3 or 4 times?

From what I remember whenever a player is picked off they also add that as caught stealing as well.

 

No they don't. A caught stealing is only recorded if the runner makes an effort to advance to the next base.

 

Does anyone have Juan Pierre's picked off base numbers then?

 

Just so I can make my point about a good chunk of Pierre's OBP being thoroughly useless even more scathing.

[JeffH]

With potentially two spots opening up on the 40 man, does anyone know if the Cubs would be able to add two more players to the 40 man before the Rule V draft occurs?

 

They cannot.

[USSoccer]

And yes, I would agree with USSoccer that Pierre will likely run less with Baker as his manager. It's pretty logical to assume that.

 

 

I think that's completely illogical actually.

 

Dusty has been dying for speed. Dusty wants his guys to run, he just never thought he had guys that could. Dusty has been openly pissed at guys like Hairston and Patterson for not running enough. The Cubs have been hard after a "speedy leadoff hitter" at least partially (and I suspect mostly) because they want more stolen bases.

 

McKeon cut back on the running from Torberg, but I highly doubt Baker will cut it back even further.

 

Time will tell. He really didn't have anyone running in San Francisco either, but I don't remember who led off for them.

 

How many SB attempts did Pierre have last season? I thought it was like 80. I would expect probably 20% fewer with Baker.

[goonys evil twin]

What will happen to this thread if one of the parties involved fails his physical?

 

Depends.

 

If a Cubs prospect fails the physical and Hendry gives up another good one, you'll see a lot of the same.

 

If Pierre fails his physical and the trade falls through, I'll be happy.

[erik316wttn]

I don't want to get into the whole "do you really need power at power positions" arguments, but do you think having hitters like Mark Grace or Tony Gwynn at "power positions" hurt their teams?

 

Having Mark Grace at 1B and nobody at other spots to offset his lack of power certainly did hurt the Cubs.

 

You can make due with less than ideal hitters at certain positions, but you have to offset it with better than normal hitters at other positions.

 

 

 

And again, my motive in this discussion is to make the Cubs the best they can be. Part of that is making the offense as good as it can be. I don't think Pierre comes close to making this offense what it should be, considering the resources available to create it. I don't think he makes them bad by any means. My complaint is that this is more of a "compete within the division" move than "let's win 95 games a year for the next 3-4 years and play into late October every season". I see no reason why the Cubs can't go for the latter.

 

Nor do I. But the Pierre move has given this eternal pessimist a faint glimmer of hope. Now, come July I'm probably going to regret I ever said that, but as of right now I'm willing to wait and see if we land Bradley or Wilkerson or Huff before I say this team can't compete to win the National League.

 

And no, this move doesn't make them great, but it makes them better, so I like the move.

 

I think, at this point, getting two good players is just as good as getting one great one.

Edited December 7, 2005 by erik316wttn

[Tedward]

With potentially two spots opening up on the 40 man, does anyone know if the Cubs would be able to add two more players to the 40 man before the Rule V draft occurs?

 

They cannot.

 

Thanks. I had thought that maybe there was a deadline to have 40 man rosters set (before rule V), but I wasn't sure.

[goonys evil twin]

Nor do I. But the Pierre move has given this eternal pessimist a faint glimmer of hope. Now, come July I'm probably going to regret I ever said that, but as of right now I'm willing to wait and see if we land Bradley or Wilkerson or Huff before I say this team can't compete to win the National League.

 

Bradley and Wilkerson would have been great additions for CF, but it's much less enticing in RF, especially now with Pierre in center. Huff and Pierre in the OF has potential disaster written all over it.

[Tracer Bullet]

What will happen to this thread if one of the parties involved fails his physical?

 

Depends.

 

If a Cubs prospect fails the physical and Hendry gives up another good one, you'll see a lot of the same.

 

If Pierre fails his physical and the trade falls through, I'll be happy.

 

What he said.

[NCCubFan]

George Ofman just pointed out that he broke this Pierre trade earliest, nearly a month ago, with Pinto being the key player of the deal. And he's right. Score one for The Score. A lot of people seem to forget the times that The Score first breaks news. Most people only remember the times that the local media gets it wrong.

 

George Ofman: 1 - Len Kasper imposter: 0

Fixed (I assume the Len Kasper reference was about the Furcal situation, which I think we've pretty much concluded was actually the cubs.com poster impersonating Len).

[Keener98]

Im not arguing one way or another with this trade. Im like others and meh. But does anybody have his attempted steals to 2nd and 3rd? Also was he more of a risk at getting thrown out trying to steal 3rd than 2nd? Just wondering.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I just realized I may need to apologize for all those things I said to Pierre last June when I was sitting in the front row of the bleachers.

 

Juan, if you're reading this, I really don't think all those things about your mother...and I really don't thing you and Miggy actually do those things we suggested. :oops:

[chopsx9]

What does Juan Pierre specialize in:

 

Answer: Getting on base and then getting caught stealing.

 

Fixed for you.

 

.329

 

This thread is a hoot. If you are going to factor in his cs's into his OBP (which is logical) you also have to factor the other 40 odd times he got himself into scoring position as a positive.

 

I believe he did in an earlier post in this thread.

 

I did. And it was somewhat refuted by Lefty, who argued that a stolen base is worth less than a total base because a double advance runners already on the bases further than a single and steal.

 

I apologize for missing it (there must 15,000 posts so you have cut me some slack!!) Yes, generally, 1B+SB < 2B (although there would also be benefits of having a baserunner on - altering the defense etc. )but it is still a positive and he should be given credit for it. Which he has..so okay then.

[BigbadB]

I agree that if you deduct the caught stealing (and picked off first base) from Pierre's OBP, you also have to consider each of his successful steals as equal to a double.

 

That makes for a lot of doubles.

 

Does anyone worry that Baker would use the #2 hitter to bunt Pierre (who steals 2nd) to 3rd like Baylor used to do ALL THE TIME?

[Cubzfan64]

Just curious - didn't we have Vince Coleman helping out in spring training last year? If it wasn't him, I could have sworn we had a former basestealer in camp for awhile coaching.

 

Pierre is only 28 and he certainly has the speed - any chance he can learn enough about basestealing to cut his CS down to a minimum?

[CuseCubFan69]

I agree that if you deduct the caught stealing (and picked off first base) from Pierre's OBP, you also have to consider each of his successful steals as equal to a double.

 

That makes for a lot of doubles.

 

Does anyone worry that Baker would use the #2 hitter to bunt Pierre (who steals 2nd) to 3rd like Baylor used to do ALL THE TIME?

 

God I hope not.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I agree that if you deduct the caught stealing (and picked off first base) from Pierre's OBP, you also have to consider each of his successful steals as equal to a double.

 

That makes for a lot of doubles.

 

Does anyone worry that Baker would use the #2 hitter to bunt Pierre (who steals 2nd) to 3rd like Baylor used to do ALL THE TIME?

 

At least that might make Neifi somewhat useful...even though I abhor the sacrifice bunt in most circumstances.

[Mizzou]

I just realized I may need to apologize for all those things I said to Pierre last June when I was sitting in the front row of the bleachers.

 

Juan, if you're reading this, I really don't think all those things about your mother...and I really don't thing you and Miggy actually do those things we suggested. :oops:

 

Haha, I don't think I'll ever forget chanting that that night. What a great game.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

What will happen to this thread if one of the parties involved fails his physical?

 

Depends.

 

If a Cubs prospect fails the physical and Hendry gives up another good one, you'll see a lot of the same.

 

If Pierre fails his physical and the trade falls through, I'll be happy.

 

I agree, but I wanted to know what will happen to the thread? I think it will take off faster than the Bobby Howry rumor thread.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Pierre's SB% could nose dive with Neifi batting in the two hole. Neifi ruined so many hit and runs and steals (initiated by the runner) last season. Please don't let Neifi bat 2nd. PLEASE!!

[jjgman21]

George Ofman just pointed out that he broke this Pierre trade earliest, nearly a month ago, with Pinto being the key player of the deal. And he's right. Score one for The Score. A lot of people seem to forget the times that The Score first breaks news. Most people only remember the times that the local media gets it wrong.

 

George Ofman: 1 - Len Kasper imposter: 0

Fixed (I assume the Len Kasper reference was about the Furcal situation, which I think we've pretty much concluded was actually the cubs.com poster impersonating Len).

 

if you throw a handful of darts at the same time, one is bound to actually stick in the dartboard.

 

 

on this thread, I am by no means enamored by Pierre and didn't want the Cubs to get him, but some of the extremes people are going to to detract from his abilities are absurd.

 

for instance, ranting about his Coors inflated numbers while ignoring two of his three best years came in Florida, where there is lots of friction in the air. or complaining about the number of doubles he hits, while ignoring he is in the top two in baseball in triples year after year. and all the speculation about what will happen as a result of the infield grass is just that, speculation. for all we know, for every ball that will now be cut off in the hole, there may be a chopper that the infielders can't get to. or attributing his day night splits to chance when the numbers show he is better in day games year after year after year.

 

could the Cubs have done better? who knows. we don't know what is going on during these various meetings and have no idea what the barriers are to all of the different transactions.

 

go ahead and state your opinion, but please try to stop presenting your opinions as fact, and then trying to prove your point with facts that are either speculative or selective and incomplete.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Pierre's SB% could nose dive with Neifi batting in the two hole. Neifi ruined so many hit and runs and steals (initiated by the runner) last season. Please don't let Neifi bat 2nd. PLEASE!!

 

The only way Neifi does not bat 2nd is if Walker is still around. I am starting to believe that Ronny will be the everyday SS, and I think he'll probably get the chance at #2 because he's RH. Walker will be bumped down to #6 to get in that "run producing spot" that Dusty likes him in.

[nolanwood]

Just curious - didn't we have Vince Coleman helping out in spring training last year? If it wasn't him, I could have sworn we had a former basestealer in camp for awhile coaching.

 

Pierre is only 28 and he certainly has the speed - any chance he can learn enough about basestealing to cut his CS down to a minimum?

 

In response to us having Coleman, yes, he did help out in spring training last year - and I thought he helps us out in the minors as well.

[goonys evil twin]

Pierre's SB% could nose dive with Neifi batting in the two hole. Neifi ruined so many hit and runs and steals (initiated by the runner) last season. Please don't let Neifi bat 2nd. PLEASE!!

 

The only way Neifi does not bat 2nd is if Walker is still around. I am starting to believe that Ronny will be the everyday SS, and I think he'll probably get the chance at #2 because he's RH. Walker will be bumped down to #6 to get in that "run producing spot" that Dusty likes him in.

 

I've heard a lot of speculation that Dusty will go with a RH bat in the 2 hole since he has a LH leadoff man. But how does that square up with the fact that Lee is the likely 3 hitter and is RH? It would either be LLR or LRR. I can't see him taking a RH hitter just because he's a RH hitter.

[Banedon]

I haven't read every post in the thread, so if this is old info, pardon me...

 

Carrie Muskat updated the Cubs.com article to state that ESPN.com is reporting that Sergio Mitre is included in the deal, and I now find no mention of the Cubs getting a prospect.

 

So it's looking like the ESPN report is probably the accurate one.

[Blueheart05]

Who's to say we don't sign Pierre again and then move him over to RF or LF next year when Pie comes up?

 

Because that would be really stupid. You don't put a guy with a throwing arm that rivals Jonny Damon's in RF. Pierre can't slug, can't throw. His value comes from playing CF.

 

Except for the throwing part, isn't that the Scott Podsednick story that the Cubs are trying so hard to emulate?

 

Pods has a horrible arm as well.