Cubs Acquire Juan Pierre

[Scott G. F.]

I'm not sure I need to elaborate - I think that when I say "he sees the ball better" its pretty clear what I'm saying. Unless you have another explanation for the difference in his numbers in day games and night games, then I think that's the only explanation.

 

Either that or it's purely chance.

 

Dusty Baker will be along shortly to explain why Pierre is better during the day. :D

 

 

LOL (is he darker then CP? Just asking)

[Diffusion]

What does Juan Pierre specialize in:

 

Answer: Getting on base and then getting caught stealing.

 

Fixed for you.

 

.329

 

Okay, I fell asleep, but now I'm up.

 

How do you know that Pierre will run as much as he did with the Marlins? Again, Baker isn't as aggressive as McKeon was. I'd be willing to bet that his attempts go down and his percentage goes up to about 75-80%.

 

Why the ridiculous emphasis on acquiring a protoypical speedy leadoff hitter if they're so uninfatuated with his running game that they'll ask him to tone it down?

[Mizzou]

I'm not sure I need to elaborate - I think that when I say "he sees the ball better" its pretty clear what I'm saying. Unless you have another explanation for the difference in his numbers in day games and night games, then I think that's the only explanation.

 

Just because it's the only explanation that you can come up with doesn't mean it's the explanation.

 

You're right, he's still getting caught - but what I meant was that it's not entirely his fault. If McKeon told him to run and the other team pitched out and nailed him, can you really fault Pierre for getting thrown out? What I'm saying is that, while not completely flawed, you can't just lower a guy's OBP for every time he gets thrown out at second base because it's not always his fault.

 

What does it matter if it's his fault or not? The point is he's still getting caught. He's still out. He still can't come around and score.

 

Are you trying to irrationally argue, as USSoccer is, that Hendry/Baker have gone to such lengths to acquire this prototypical speedy leadoff man just so that they can tell him to run less often, to get caught stealing less often?

 

It matters because you're lowing HIS on base percentage to make HIM look like lesser of a player. I'm saying that that is faulty because it's not entirely his fault.

 

And yes, I would agree with USSoccer that Pierre will likely run less with Baker as his manager. It's pretty logical to assume that.

 

EDIT: And you're more than welcome to offer a different reason for the day splits, as I've stated before.

Edited December 7, 2005 by Mizzou

[erik316wttn]

I'm not sure I need to elaborate - I think that when I say "he sees the ball better" its pretty clear what I'm saying. Unless you have another explanation for the difference in his numbers in day games and night games, then I think that's the only explanation.

 

Just because it's the only explanation that you can come up with doesn't mean it's the explanation.

 

You're right, he's still getting caught - but what I meant was that it's not entirely his fault. If McKeon told him to run and the other team pitched out and nailed him, can you really fault Pierre for getting thrown out? What I'm saying is that, while not completely flawed, you can't just lower a guy's OBP for every time he gets thrown out at second base because it's not always his fault.

 

What does it matter if it's his fault or not? The point is he's still getting caught. He's still out. He still can't come around and score.

 

Are you trying to irrationally argue, as USSoccer is, that Hendry/Baker have gone to such lengths to acquire this prototypical speedy leadoff man just so that they can tell him to run less often, to get caught stealing less often?

 

It matters because you're lowing HIS on base percentage to make HIM look like lesser of a player. I'm saying that that is faulty because it's not entirely his fault.

 

And yes, I would agree with USSoccer that Pierre will likely run less with Baker as his manager. It's pretty logical to assume that.

 

I hope Dusty doesn't totally ground him, though. Having a speedster like that on base can get inside a pitchers head.

[fromthestretch]

I don't want to get into the whole "do you really need power at power positions" arguments, but do you think having hitters like Mark Grace or Tony Gwynn at "power positions" hurt their teams?

 

I think it hurts if you aren't making up for it elsewhere. It would be nice to be getting power from at least one outfield position. I do think that eventually Murton could be a 20-25 homer player, just not sure how soon that will be.

 

This is why Nomar, if he could be brought back at a reasonable price, would be a decent gamble for SS in 2006. If healthy (yes, that's a big if), he's capable of giving the Cubs a power bat at SS.

[USSoccer]

What does Juan Pierre specialize in:

 

Answer: Getting on base and then getting caught stealing.

 

Fixed for you.

 

.329

 

Okay, I fell asleep, but now I'm up.

 

How do you know that Pierre will run as much as he did with the Marlins? Again, Baker isn't as aggressive as McKeon was. I'd be willing to bet that his attempts go down and his percentage goes up to about 75-80%.

 

Why the ridiculous emphasis on acquiring a protoypical speedy leadoff hitter if they're so uninfatuated with his running game that they'll ask him to tone it down?

 

They probably think that between his career OBP and his potential to steal bases they've upgraded the position. I just posted it in response to another post, but I'd be willing to bet that his SB attempts decrease, since Baker just is not that aggressive. Does that change his success rate? Maybe, maybe not. But to the Cubs, running 50 times with Pierre is still an upgrade, and Pierre gives them lineup stability. That might begin to explain their efforts.

[chopsx9]

What does Juan Pierre specialize in:

 

Answer: Getting on base and then getting caught stealing.

 

Fixed for you.

 

.329

 

This thread is a hoot. If you are going to factor in his cs's into his OBP (which is logical) you also have to factor the other 40 odd times he got himself into scoring position as a positive. Which offsets his lack of power to some degree. (Unless we just want to say how terrible he is - in which case nevermind)

Pierre is not a great player but he's not terrible either and he has a chance to be a decent upgrade. Yeah they overpaid some but I think the key prospects were kept so I view it as an OK trade.

[goonys evil twin]

Who says Pierre has to be a one-year rental? Why can't he be extended to two or three years? Why can't Pie play right when he gets called up?

 

Many people don't want Pierre on the team at all, why would extending him make things better? Pie isn't a RF. RF is an impact bat position, unless of course you have studs at positions that don't normally have studs, but that is not the case with the Cubs, and not likely to be in the near future. If things work out Pie will be a good hitting CF in 2007. If he ever becomes productive enough to be a RF, that won't happen until his 26/27/28 year old seasons, 2010 and beyond.

[USSoccer]

I'm not sure I need to elaborate - I think that when I say "he sees the ball better" its pretty clear what I'm saying. Unless you have another explanation for the difference in his numbers in day games and night games, then I think that's the only explanation.

 

Just because it's the only explanation that you can come up with doesn't mean it's the explanation.

 

You're right, he's still getting caught - but what I meant was that it's not entirely his fault. If McKeon told him to run and the other team pitched out and nailed him, can you really fault Pierre for getting thrown out? What I'm saying is that, while not completely flawed, you can't just lower a guy's OBP for every time he gets thrown out at second base because it's not always his fault.

 

What does it matter if it's his fault or not? The point is he's still getting caught. He's still out. He still can't come around and score.

 

Are you trying to irrationally argue, as USSoccer is, that Hendry/Baker have gone to such lengths to acquire this prototypical speedy leadoff man just so that they can tell him to run less often, to get caught stealing less often?

 

It matters because you're lowing HIS on base percentage to make HIM look like lesser of a player. I'm saying that that is faulty because it's not entirely his fault.

 

And yes, I would agree with USSoccer that Pierre will likely run less with Baker as his manager. It's pretty logical to assume that.

 

I hope Dusty doesn't totally ground him, though. Having a speedster like that on base can get inside a pitchers head.

 

I don't know if there's any evidence to that fact, since it's darn near impossible to measure. However, I don't see how it can hurt to have the threat of running in someone's mind.

[ThePenguin11]

We did something!!!

 

Who is the RB in your avatar? And who was the defender that got drilled into the endzone?

[erik316wttn]

Who says Pierre has to be a one-year rental? Why can't he be extended to two or three years? Why can't Pie play right when he gets called up?

 

Many people don't want Pierre on the team at all, why would extending him make things better? Pie isn't a RF. RF is an impact bat position, unless of course you have studs at positions that don't normally have studs, but that is not the case with the Cubs, and not likely to be in the near future. If things work out Pie will be a good hitting CF in 2007. If he ever becomes productive enough to be a RF, that won't happen until his 26/27/28 year old seasons, 2010 and beyond.

 

Just throwing things out there, goony.

 

Some people seem (at least to me) like they're mad we gave up Pinto and Nolasco for just one year of Pierre.

 

But, to each his own. If he does well I'd like to see him back.

[Careless]

What does Juan Pierre specialize in:

 

Answer: Getting on base and then getting caught stealing.

 

Fixed for you.

 

.329

 

This thread is a hoot. If you are going to factor in his cs's into his OBP (which is logical) you also have to factor the other 40 odd times he got himself into scoring position as a positive. Which offsets his lack of power to some degree. (Unless we just want to say how terrible he is - in which case nevermind)

Pierre is not a great player but he's not terrible either and he has a chance to be a decent upgrade. Yeah they overpaid some but I think the key prospects were kept so I view it as an OK trade.

You say this after diffusion has done exactly that in more than one thread (including this one)

[Diffusion]

What does Juan Pierre specialize in:

 

Answer: Getting on base and then getting caught stealing.

 

Fixed for you.

 

.329

 

Okay, I fell asleep, but now I'm up.

 

How do you know that Pierre will run as much as he did with the Marlins? Again, Baker isn't as aggressive as McKeon was. I'd be willing to bet that his attempts go down and his percentage goes up to about 75-80%.

 

Why the ridiculous emphasis on acquiring a protoypical speedy leadoff hitter if they're so uninfatuated with his running game that they'll ask him to tone it down?

 

They probably think that between his career OBP and his potential to steal bases they've upgraded the position. I just posted it in response to another post, but I'd be willing to bet that his SB attempts decrease, since Baker just is not that aggressive. Does that change his success rate? Maybe, maybe not. But to the Cubs, running 50 times with Pierre is still an upgrade, and Pierre gives them lineup stability. That might begin to explain their efforts.

 

If Baker's not that aggressive, why can't he just bat Todd Walker leadoff and be done with it?

[fromthestretch]

What does Juan Pierre specialize in:

 

Answer: Getting on base and then getting caught stealing.

 

Fixed for you.

 

.329

 

This thread is a hoot. If you are going to factor in his cs's into his OBP (which is logical) you also have to factor the other 40 odd times he got himself into scoring position as a positive.

 

I believe he did in an earlier post in this thread.

[YearofDaCubs]

Still waiting for confirmation from someone that a pick off is considered a Caught Stealing?

 

Confirmed.

 

Cool. 2 confirmations and 2 denials. Which is it?

 

Did Juan Pierre get caught stealing 2nd or 3rd 17 times last season, or was he picked off 1st base half of those times?

 

Or, was he caught stealing 17 times and picked off maybe another 3 or 4 times?

From what I remember whenever a player is picked off they also add that as caught stealing as well.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't want to get into the whole "do you really need power at power positions" arguments, but do you think having hitters like Mark Grace or Tony Gwynn at "power positions" hurt their teams?

 

Having Mark Grace at 1B and nobody at other spots to offset his lack of power certainly did hurt the Cubs.

 

You can make due with less than ideal hitters at certain positions, but you have to offset it with better than normal hitters at other positions.

 

 

 

And again, my motive in this discussion is to make the Cubs the best they can be. Part of that is making the offense as good as it can be. I don't think Pierre comes close to making this offense what it should be, considering the resources available to create it. I don't think he makes them bad by any means. My complaint is that this is more of a "compete within the division" move than "let's win 95 games a year for the next 3-4 years and play into late October every season". I see no reason why the Cubs can't go for the latter.

[fromthestretch]

Still waiting for confirmation from someone that a pick off is considered a Caught Stealing?

 

Confirmed.

 

Cool. 2 confirmations and 2 denials. Which is it?

 

Did Juan Pierre get caught stealing 2nd or 3rd 17 times last season, or was he picked off 1st base half of those times?

 

Or, was he caught stealing 17 times and picked off maybe another 3 or 4 times?

From what I remember whenever a player is picked off they also add that as caught stealing as well.

 

No they don't. A caught stealing is only recorded if the runner makes an effort to advance to the next base.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

What will happen to this thread if one of the parties involved fails his physical?

[Tracer Bullet]

What does Juan Pierre specialize in:

 

Answer: Getting on base and then getting caught stealing.

 

Fixed for you.

 

.329

 

Okay, I fell asleep, but now I'm up.

 

 

How do you know that Pierre will run as much as he did with the Marlins? Again, Baker isn't as aggressive as McKeon was. I'd be willing to bet that his attempts go down and his percentage goes up to about 75-80%.

 

Why the ridiculous emphasis on acquiring a protoypical speedy leadoff hitter if they're so uninfatuated with his running game that they'll ask him to tone it down?

 

They probably think that between his career OBP and his potential to steal bases they've upgraded the position. I just posted it in response to another post, but I'd be willing to bet that his SB attempts decrease, since Baker just is not that aggressive. Does that change his success rate? Maybe, maybe not. But to the Cubs, running 50 times with Pierre is still an upgrade, and Pierre gives them lineup stability. That might begin to explain their efforts.

 

If Baker's not that aggressive, why can't he just bat Todd Walker leadoff and be done with it?

 

Exactly. If Baker didn't want to use Pierre's speed, he would have had Walker lead off. I would be surprised if Pierre doesn't attempt 60 or so steals next year.

[Diffusion]

What does Juan Pierre specialize in:

 

Answer: Getting on base and then getting caught stealing.

 

Fixed for you.

 

.329

 

This thread is a hoot. If you are going to factor in his cs's into his OBP (which is logical) you also have to factor the other 40 odd times he got himself into scoring position as a positive.

 

I believe he did in an earlier post in this thread.

 

I did. And it was somewhat refuted by Lefty, who argued that a stolen base is worth less than a total base because a double advance runners already on the bases further than a single and steal.

[goonys evil twin]

And yes, I would agree with USSoccer that Pierre will likely run less with Baker as his manager. It's pretty logical to assume that.

 

 

I think that's completely illogical actually.

 

Dusty has been dying for speed. Dusty wants his guys to run, he just never thought he had guys that could. Dusty has been openly pissed at guys like Hairston and Patterson for not running enough. The Cubs have been hard after a "speedy leadoff hitter" at least partially (and I suspect mostly) because they want more stolen bases.

 

McKeon cut back on the running from Torberg, but I highly doubt Baker will cut it back even further.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

No they don't. A caught stealing is only recorded if the runner makes an effort to advance to the next base.

 

That is correct. I found this is the official MLB rules:

 

CAUGHT STEALING (h) A runner shall be charged as "Caught Stealing" if he is put out, or would have been put out by errorless play when he (1) Tries to steal. (2) Is picked off a base and tries to advance (any move toward the next base shall be considered an attempt to advance). (3) Overslides while stealing. NOTE: In those instances where a pitched ball eludes the catcher and the runner is put out trying to advance, no caught stealing shall be charged. No caught stealing should be charged when a runner is awarded a base due to obstruction.

[Tedward]

With potentially two spots opening up on the 40 man, does anyone know if the Cubs would be able to add two more players to the 40 man before the Rule V draft occurs?

[USSoccer]

If Baker's not that aggressive, why can't he just bat Todd Walker leadoff and be done with it?

 

Because he's too old school to think like that, and the team seems to think Todd Walker isn't as good as he is.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

With potentially two spots opening up on the 40 man, does anyone know if the Cubs would be able to add two more players to the 40 man before the Rule V draft occurs?

 

Who would you like added?