What does the JP trade tell us? ( If it happens!!)

[CubinNY]

It all comes down to what we do in right field I suppose.

 

Right. Finding a RFer with power should be Hendry's primary focus. To me there seems to be a surplus of serviceable CFers. And Furcal will not give the Cubs that much of an upgrade for the money.

 

That is not to say Hendry cannot do both at the same time. But from what we know he hasn't.

[nick23]

Tell that to the Boston Red Sox and Dave Roberts. I could care less if Pierre gets thrown out trying to steal in the 4th inning of a game against the Pirates in May. I care about the base he'll potentially steal in the 9th inning of a 1 run game in September when we're fighting for the playoffs.

 

Making personel decisions based on theoretical specific individual future plays is an absolutely terrible way to go about building a team.

 

You have to get to a position for that stolen base to be meaningful to justify going after a guy strictly for that. Boston had an amazing offense, so they were fine adding a strict stolen base specialist (who by the way was a bench player, not a multi-million dollar starter). If you want that 1 stolen base in the 9th inning in September, I'd be far more interested in calling up Dwaine Bacon for the bench, paying him $300,000 per year and seeing him do his thing, then trading away talent and spending big money on a marginal player when such huge holes are still very evident.

 

And how the hell can you possibly assume that while he might get thrown out in May, he'll clearly be safe in September? Pierre is neither an OBP specialist (.326 in 2005, .355 career) or stolen base god. He's not a guarantee for anything. With Giles, you're guaranteed huge OBP, and at the very least, solid power.

Which is why I used the word potentially. By the way I didn't say sign Pierre because he can steal a base in the 9th inning of a playoff game. I was responding to a post that said the stolen base is not that valuable. I was giving a specific example of when the stolen base was extremely valuable.

[mg420]

whos to say that giles even WANTS to play for the cubs? even if he does & they sign him, he wont hit leadoff or play cf.

 

Leadoff and CF was not the only problem. RF was as big a hole as CF last year. Pierre is a mediocre CF, Furcal is a 2nd tier SS, Giles is an outstanding RF.

 

I don't want to hear about the "doesn't want to play here" BS. Players will play where they are offered money. You don't know if Giles wants to come here unless you try and convince him to come here. And if you're turned down early, don't just give up. That can't be your excuse not to go for the best.

 

tell that to todd walker. not every player is an arod or a beltran. everyone here is working on rumors and guesses. even after it is all said and done fans will not know the true story. how do you know the cubs aren't going full guns after him? if he signs somewhere else, i'm sure people will complain the cubs didnt try hard enough to get him.

[gflore34]

whos to say that giles even WANTS to play for the cubs? even if he does & they sign him, he wont hit leadoff or play cf.

 

Leadoff and CF was not the only problem. RF was as big a hole as CF last year. Pierre is a mediocre CF, Furcal is a 2nd tier SS, Giles is an outstanding RF.

 

I don't want to hear about the "doesn't want to play here" BS. Players will play where they are offered money. You don't know if Giles wants to come here unless you try and convince him to come here. And if you're turned down early, don't just give up. That can't be your excuse not to go for the best.

 

Exactly, along those lines, I love it when agents throw out that so and so is flattered by team' X interest in so and so line, such as Giles' agent with the Yankees. Bottom line, Giles will go where the money is, all the other talk is rhetoric.

[Neuby]

whos to say that giles even WANTS to play for the cubs? even if he does & they sign him, he wont hit leadoff or play cf.

 

Leadoff and CF was not the only problem. RF was as big a hole as CF last year. Pierre is a mediocre CF, Furcal is a 2nd tier SS, Giles is an outstanding RF.

 

I don't want to hear about the "doesn't want to play here" BS. Players will play where they are offered money. You don't know if Giles wants to come here unless you try and convince him to come here. And if you're turned down early, don't just give up. That can't be your excuse not to go for the best.

Furcal is a young playoff tested switch hitter, with speed, power, great range, a cannon arm and he's a second tier shortstop?

Miggy

Arod (3b)

Micheal Young

 

I mean I understand Furcal might be overpriced but 2nd tier?

Goony we also don't know that Giles will sign with anyone anytime soon considering all the teams in the bidding.

[goonys evil twin]

Furcal is a young playoff tested switch hitter, with speed, power, great range, a cannon arm and he's a second tier shortstop?

Miggy

Arod (3b)

Micheal Young

 

I mean I understand Furcal might be overpriced but 2nd tier?

 

750 OPS.

 

Yes, he's clearly 2nd tier. Miggy, ARod, Jeter, Young. I might even put that Peralta guy up there, but it's probably too soon.

 

Furcal is in a group with Lugo, Renteria, Rollins, Guillen, Crosby and possibly Green. Furcal is being grossly overvalued this offseason.

 

Goony we also don't know that Giles will sign with anyone anytime soon considering all the teams in the bidding

 

What does that have to do with anything? Both Furcal and Giles are likely to take their time signing, but they are also likely to sign within a week of each other. I don't care if Hendry goes after Furcal. He's overpriced, but at least he's good, and the one thing the Cubs have is the ability to spend. But what you absolutely cannot even consider doing, is going after Furcal instead of Giles. Giles is far and away the better option between the two, it's not even close. RF is a much bigger hole, and Giles is a much better player.

[nick23]

Furcal is a young playoff tested switch hitter, with speed, power, great range, a cannon arm and he's a second tier shortstop?

Miggy

Arod (3b)

Micheal Young

 

I mean I understand Furcal might be overpriced but 2nd tier?

 

750 OPS.

 

Yes, he's clearly 2nd tier. Miggy, ARod, Jeter, Young. I might even put that Peralta guy up there, but it's probably too soon.

 

Furcal is in a group with Lugo, Renteria, Rollins, Guillen, Crosby and possibly Green. Furcal is being grossly overvalued this offseason.

Atlanta sure sounds like they want him back pretty bad. But what does their GM know? Maybe, just maybe he thinks Furcal had a little bit to do with Atlanta winning those last 6 division titles. Granted strong arguments can be made that Giles fills a bigger need. Truth is, we just don't know what Hendry has up his sleeve. He could be in serious trade talks about a RF as we speak. No one knows. What we do know is Furcal would be a very good signing, and a major upgrade from last season.

[YearofDaCubs]

I personally do not see how Pierre would affect Pie. First off Pie is still very young and currently is not ready to come to the majors. If anything, getting a new CF would be a good thing because we won't have to rush Pie like we did Corey, although in the minors or not you still have to make adjustments so I question bringing players early could ruin them. I digress. If Pie can also improve upon his power numbers I'm thinking at the very least he could end up in the corner spot if necessary.

[goonys evil twin]

Furcal is a young playoff tested switch hitter' date=' with speed, power, great range, a cannon arm and he's a second tier shortstop?

Miggy

Arod (3b)

Micheal Young

 

I mean I understand Furcal might be overpriced but 2nd tier? [/quote']

 

750 OPS.

 

Yes, he's clearly 2nd tier. Miggy, ARod, Jeter, Young. I might even put that Peralta guy up there, but it's probably too soon.

 

Furcal is in a group with Lugo, Renteria, Rollins, Guillen, Crosby and possibly Green. Furcal is being grossly overvalued this offseason.

Atlanta sure sounds like they want him back pretty bad. But what does their GM know? Maybe, just maybe he thinks Furcal had a little bit to do with Atlanta winning those last 6 division titles. Granted strong arguments can be made that Giles fills a bigger need. Truth is, we just don't know what Hendry has up his sleeve. He could be in serious trade talks about a RF as we speak. No one knows. What we do know is Furcal would be a very good signing, and a major upgrade from last season.

 

What does any of that have to do with what I wrote? Furcal is a good player and the Braves have been successful with him, of course Atlanta would like to have him back. But Furcal is in a 2nd tier of SS, and while the Cub have many needs, RF is the one spot on the team with no potential internal solution who would offer a reasonable opportunity for at least average production. And if Furcal does get 5/50, he most definitely would not be a very good signing. He'd still be a good player, but extremely overpaid.

[BigbadB]

No one is really screaming that going after Furcal AND Pierre is a bad plan. But, along with going after those two guys, every effort to get Giles should have been explored first.

 

I'd be in heaven if we got Pierre, Furcal and Giles. The Cubs would go from one of the worst to first, offensively (assuming Cedeno or Walker plays 2nd rather than Perez).

 

I have seen no evidence that Giles is all about the money. It was the Pittsburgh Pirates that he signed his last deal with. As good as he is, the most money he's made in any season is 8m. He also signed that deal during the big money contract era.

 

I think he's a modest, hard working player that just wants to be on a winning team, and he'll want to be paid what he feels he's worth.

[Warpticon]

whos to say that giles even WANTS to play for the cubs? even if he does & they sign him, he wont hit leadoff or play cf.

 

Leadoff and CF was not the only problem. RF was as big a hole as CF last year. Pierre is a mediocre CF, Furcal is a 2nd tier SS, Giles is an outstanding RF.

 

I don't want to hear about the "doesn't want to play here" BS. Players will play where they are offered money. You don't know if Giles wants to come here unless you try and convince him to come here. And if you're turned down early, don't just give up. That can't be your excuse not to go for the best.

Furcal is a young playoff tested switch hitter, with speed, power, great range, a cannon arm and he's a second tier shortstop?

Miggy

Arod (3b)

Micheal Young

 

I mean I understand Furcal might be overpriced but 2nd tier?

Goony we also don't know that Giles will sign with anyone anytime soon considering all the teams in the bidding.

 

I'm not understanding what's confusing. You just basically named the first tier. (Peralta and Lopez could also be considered part of that tier, pending repeat performances.) Furcal is not as strong a player as them. He's the next step down, hence second tier.

[Guest]

whos to say that giles even WANTS to play for the cubs? even if he does & they sign him, he wont hit leadoff or play cf.

 

Leadoff and CF was not the only problem. RF was as big a hole as CF last year. Pierre is a mediocre CF, Furcal is a 2nd tier SS, Giles is an outstanding RF.

 

I don't want to hear about the "doesn't want to play here" BS. Players will play where they are offered money. You don't know if Giles wants to come here unless you try and convince him to come here. And if you're turned down early, don't just give up. That can't be your excuse not to go for the best.

Furcal is a young playoff tested switch hitter, with speed, power, great range, a cannon arm and he's a second tier shortstop?

Miggy

Arod (3b)

Micheal Young

 

I mean I understand Furcal might be overpriced but 2nd tier?

Goony we also don't know that Giles will sign with anyone anytime soon considering all the teams in the bidding.

 

I'm not understanding what's confusing. You just basically named the first tier. (Peralta and Lopez could also be considered part of that tier, pending repeat performances.) Furcal is not as strong a player as them. He's the next step down, hence second tier.

Jeter's a definite step above Furcal as well, at least as far as offense is concerned.

[imb]

whos to say that giles even WANTS to play for the cubs? even if he does & they sign him, he wont hit leadoff or play cf.

 

Leadoff and CF was not the only problem. RF was as big a hole as CF last year. Pierre is a mediocre CF, Furcal is a 2nd tier SS, Giles is an outstanding RF.

 

I don't want to hear about the "doesn't want to play here" BS. Players will play where they are offered money. You don't know if Giles wants to come here unless you try and convince him to come here. And if you're turned down early, don't just give up. That can't be your excuse not to go for the best.

Furcal is a young playoff tested switch hitter, with speed, power, great range, a cannon arm and he's a second tier shortstop?

Miggy

Arod (3b)

Micheal Young

 

I mean I understand Furcal might be overpriced but 2nd tier?

Goony we also don't know that Giles will sign with anyone anytime soon considering all the teams in the bidding.

 

I'm not understanding what's confusing. You just basically named the first tier. (Peralta and Lopez could also be considered part of that tier, pending repeat performances.) Furcal is not as strong a player as them. He's the next step down, hence second tier.

Jeter's a definite step above Furcal as well, at least as far as offense is concerned.

 

Jeter just cant quite catch the ball like Furcal can.

[RockTheIvy]

But boy oh boy can he pump his fists!

[wastra]

I'm not real concerned with stolen bases at all. But I would like more team speed.

 

Speed allows guys (Morton, for instance) to run out infield hits. It allows guys to take an extra base on gappers, or score from first on singles and doubles who might otherwise wind up languishing on second for the final out of the inning.

 

Given the choice, I'd prefer EVERYONE on the team be fast, but I really care very little whether or not anyone steals 40 or 50 bases.

 

I care more about the fact that JP, for example, is coming off an awful season. So if we do get him (and I'm not saying we shouldn't), we simply better pay a fiar price, and not overpay for him.

 

And, this move should not be made in lieu of better moves. this should not PRECLUDE us from shoring up RF, and going after guys we've already targetted in the rotation, pen, and infield. If it does that, it's a terrible move.

 

 

 

I don't mind Hendry going out and making trades and acquisitions. That's all fine and dandy- even if it's a position we don't necesarilly NEED a trade or aciquisition at, or one that should not be priority #1. But trading for Pierre doesn't we CANNOT still get Giles, Furcal, Burnett, or anyone else. If it DOES, then it's a HUGE mistake.

[Neuby]

Furcal is a young playoff tested switch hitter, with speed, power, great range, a cannon arm and he's a second tier shortstop?

Miggy

Arod (3b)

Micheal Young

 

I mean I understand Furcal might be overpriced but 2nd tier?

 

750 OPS.

 

Yes, he's clearly 2nd tier. Miggy, ARod, Jeter, Young. I might even put that Peralta guy up there, but it's probably too soon.

 

Furcal is in a group with Lugo, Renteria, Rollins, Guillen, Crosby and possibly Green. Furcal is being grossly overvalued this offseason.

 

Goony we also don't know that Giles will sign with anyone anytime soon considering all the teams in the bidding

 

What does that have to do with anything? Both Furcal and Giles are likely to take their time signing, but they are also likely to sign within a week of each other. I don't care if Hendry goes after Furcal. He's overpriced, but at least he's good, and the one thing the Cubs have is the ability to spend. But what you absolutely cannot even consider doing, is going after Furcal instead of Giles. Giles is far and away the better option between the two, it's not even close. RF is a much bigger hole, and Giles is a much better player.

 

Considering ARod plays third I am gonna take him off the list that leaves us with

Miggy

Young

Jeter

 

I would put Furcal right behind those guys . Peralta and Lopez each have one good season so far. Renteria had an off year last year. So at must your putting Furcal in the top 6 or 7 in the majors at his postion , thats doesn't seem like second tier to me. Right now from all reports it looks like it is between the Cubs and Braves . Hendry has to focous his attention on getting Furcal done. If Furcal signs with the Cubs it lets Hendry move Walker for needs in other areas. Giles has been fielding offers from a ton of teams and won't be signing quick from all indications. Getting Pierre and Furcal shouldn't preclude the Cubs from getting Giles. There interest has been reported. Assume they get Pierre cheap in terms of prospects , then with Furcal signed adress there right fielder needs by going after Dunn, Abreu,Ramirez? Where have you read the if the Cubs sign Furcal that it means that a guy like Jacques Jones will be in right field?

[goonys evil twin]

at must your putting Furcal in the top 6 or 7 in the majors at his postion , thats doesn't seem like second tier to me.

 

That is exactly what second tier means. He's not elite. He can't compete with the elite. Trying to pass him off as elite is a mistake. Furcal is in a group of several good, but not special, shortstops who are by and large, interchangable. On any other team, ARod is playing shortstop by the way. He is a shortstop.

 

Where have you read the if the Cubs sign Furcal that it means that a guy like Jacques Jones will be in right field?

 

I'm applying my own personal analysis into the situation. Hendry has had an unhealthy love affair with underperforming toolsy players for years. He's been linked to guys like Wilson, Burnitz and Jones repeatedly. All indications are that he actually likes that type of player. And he's gone out of his way to emphasize the rather absurd theory that this team is all about getting guys who catch the ball. That right there is a premeditated excuse not to go after guys who hit the ball. I could easily see this team with an OF of Murton, Pierre and Wilson/Jones/Burnitz, and they could easily be in a similar position they were in last year.

 

You go after sure thing production so you can introduce cheap hitters, and vice versa. I'm all for introducing Murton and Cedeno to the lineup. But you only do that when the other 6 guarantee you fantastic production. This is especially true with a top 5 payroll. What you don't do is introduce the young unproven talent (and remember, they are largely unproven because Dusty failed to see the value in giving them time last year) into a position where they absolutely have to produce in order to make the offense work. You have to build in some cushion. Putting a guy like Giles into the mix provides some cushion for less than steller production out of the new guys. But guys like Furcal and Pierre don't provide that cushion.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

I could care less if Pierre gets thrown out trying to steal in the 4th inning of a game against the Pirates in May. I care about the base he'll potentially steal in the 9th inning of a 1 run game in September when we're fighting for the playoffs.

 

 

I should just note that in the end those BOTH count as ONE WIN.

 

Its not a very strong argument. At all.

 

Say we go into that game into September two games back instead of one and we could look back at that game against the Pirates (which was lost by one run), if I went "DAMMIT that failed stolen base attempt against the Pirates cost us so much," would I be wrong?

 

In the end a win is a win, and a game in September only has meaning if you were winning before it.

[nick23]

I could care less if Pierre gets thrown out trying to steal in the 4th inning of a game against the Pirates in May. I care about the base he'll potentially steal in the 9th inning of a 1 run game in September when we're fighting for the playoffs.

 

 

I should just note that in the end those BOTH count as ONE WIN.

 

Its not a very strong argument. At all.

 

Say we go into that game into September two games back instead of one and we could look back at that game against the Pirates (which was lost by one run), if I went "DAMMIT that failed stolen base attempt against the Pirates cost us so much," would I be wrong?

 

In the end a win is a win, and a game in September only has meaning if you were winning before it.

Once again, I was just responding to a post that said stolen bases aren't valuable. I tend to disagree. I never said sign Pierre because hypothetically he could win us a game with a stolen base. Pierre being fast is not going to hurt this team. Speed is a good thing. Just looking at his SB% doesn't tell you everything. He is a good leadoff hitter who had 1 down year. I think he'll bounce back and be a very good for this team next year.

[KingCubsFan]

You go after sure thing production so you can introduce cheap hitters, and vice versa. I'm all for introducing Murton and Cedeno to the lineup. But you only do that when the other 6 guarantee you fantastic production. This is especially true with a top 5 payroll. What you don't do is introduce the young unproven talent (and remember, they are largely unproven because Dusty failed to see the value in giving them time last year) into a position where they absolutely have to produce in order to make the offense work. You have to build in some cushion. Putting a guy like Giles into the mix provides some cushion for less than steller production out of the new guys. But guys like Furcal and Pierre don't provide that cushion.

I have to disagree. By putting Furcal and Pierre into the 1-2 spots in the lineup, you've solidified the top and allow Cedeno and Murton to hit at the bottom of the lineup where there is less pressure. In my opinion, a large part of Corey's huge decline this year stems from the fact that Baker tried to make him into a leadoff hitter, which he never was and never will be. Don't you think if we had a legitimate leadoff hitter last year, Patterson would have been more successful hitting 6th or 7th?

[Andy]

Patterson was just as crappy batting 6th, 7th and 8th as he was batting 1st and 2nd.

[goonys evil twin]

You go after sure thing production so you can introduce cheap hitters, and vice versa. I'm all for introducing Murton and Cedeno to the lineup. But you only do that when the other 6 guarantee you fantastic production. This is especially true with a top 5 payroll. What you don't do is introduce the young unproven talent (and remember, they are largely unproven because Dusty failed to see the value in giving them time last year) into a position where they absolutely have to produce in order to make the offense work. You have to build in some cushion. Putting a guy like Giles into the mix provides some cushion for less than steller production out of the new guys. But guys like Furcal and Pierre don't provide that cushion.

I have to disagree. By putting Furcal and Pierre into the 1-2 spots in the lineup, you've solidified the top and allow Cedeno and Murton to hit at the bottom of the lineup where there is less pressure. In my opinion, a large part of Corey's huge decline this year stems from the fact that Baker tried to make him into a leadoff hitter, which he never was and never will be. Don't you think if we had a legitimate leadoff hitter last year, Patterson would have been more successful hitting 6th or 7th?

 

They had a legit leadoff hitter last year, but Dusty refused to hit him leadoff.

 

Hey, if you go Furcal, Pierre, Lee, Giles, Ramirez, that's great. But RF was a black hole last year (ranked 15th in the NL in OPS) and the 4th/5th spot cannot go to another Burnitz like hitter.

[fromthestretch]

I could care less if Pierre gets thrown out trying to steal in the 4th inning of a game against the Pirates in May. I care about the base he'll potentially steal in the 9th inning of a 1 run game in September when we're fighting for the playoffs.

 

 

I should just note that in the end those BOTH count as ONE WIN.

 

Its not a very strong argument. At all.

 

Say we go into that game into September two games back instead of one and we could look back at that game against the Pirates (which was lost by one run), if I went "DAMMIT that failed stolen base attempt against the Pirates cost us so much," would I be wrong?

 

In the end a win is a win, and a game in September only has meaning if you were winning before it.

Once again, I was just responding to a post that said stolen bases aren't valuable. I tend to disagree. I never said sign Pierre because hypothetically he could win us a game with a stolen base. Pierre being fast is not going to hurt this team. Speed is a good thing. Just looking at his SB% doesn't tell you everything. He is a good leadoff hitter who had 1 down year. I think he'll bounce back and be a very good for this team next year.

 

He's an OK leadoff hitter that has had TWO down years...2002 and 2005. He doesn't walk much, which means that if he doesn't hit over .300, his OBP is going to be less than desirable.

[nick23]

I could care less if Pierre gets thrown out trying to steal in the 4th inning of a game against the Pirates in May. I care about the base he'll potentially steal in the 9th inning of a 1 run game in September when we're fighting for the playoffs.

 

 

I should just note that in the end those BOTH count as ONE WIN.

 

Its not a very strong argument. At all.

 

Say we go into that game into September two games back instead of one and we could look back at that game against the Pirates (which was lost by one run), if I went "DAMMIT that failed stolen base attempt against the Pirates cost us so much," would I be wrong?

 

In the end a win is a win, and a game in September only has meaning if you were winning before it.

Once again, I was just responding to a post that said stolen bases aren't valuable. I tend to disagree. I never said sign Pierre because hypothetically he could win us a game with a stolen base. Pierre being fast is not going to hurt this team. Speed is a good thing. Just looking at his SB% doesn't tell you everything. He is a good leadoff hitter who had 1 down year. I think he'll bounce back and be a very good for this team next year.

 

He's an OK leadoff hitter that has had TWO down years...2002 and 2005. He doesn't walk much, which means that if he doesn't hit over .300, his OBP is going to be less than desirable.

Well, good thing he's a career .305 hitter then. Also, he walks just as much as Todd Walker, and a lot of you were and still are calling him a good leadoff option.

[YearofDaCubs]

You go after sure thing production so you can introduce cheap hitters, and vice versa. I'm all for introducing Murton and Cedeno to the lineup. But you only do that when the other 6 guarantee you fantastic production. This is especially true with a top 5 payroll. What you don't do is introduce the young unproven talent (and remember, they are largely unproven because Dusty failed to see the value in giving them time last year) into a position where they absolutely have to produce in order to make the offense work. You have to build in some cushion. Putting a guy like Giles into the mix provides some cushion for less than steller production out of the new guys. But guys like Furcal and Pierre don't provide that cushion.

I have to disagree. By putting Furcal and Pierre into the 1-2 spots in the lineup, you've solidified the top and allow Cedeno and Murton to hit at the bottom of the lineup where there is less pressure. In my opinion, a large part of Corey's huge decline this year stems from the fact that Baker tried to make him into a leadoff hitter, which he never was and never will be. Don't you think if we had a legitimate leadoff hitter last year, Patterson would have been more successful hitting 6th or 7th?

 

They had a legit leadoff hitter last year, but Dusty refused to hit him leadoff.

 

Hey, if you go Furcal, Pierre, Lee, Giles, Ramirez, that's great. But RF was a black hole last year (ranked 15th in the NL in OPS) and the 4th/5th spot cannot go to another Burnitz like hitter.

I do agree with you that we need a difference maker out in RF.