Wood on WGN Radio Tonight

[USSoccer]

There are about 8 better, single measurments. By your logic, Roger Clemens had a crappy 2005 because he only won 13 games. Yet his ERA was below 2, and he had the lowest BAA. Is he a bum because the Astros had a terrible offense behind him?

 

We've had this exact same arugument before, probably a dozen times. Wins are a team stat, unless you expect a pitcher to drive in runs as well.

 

Clemens in 2005, Randy Johnson in 2004, Wood in 2003...You can be a dominant pitcher without a high win total.

 

Wood's health is the only acceptable knock on him. When healthy, he's a really good pitcher. But, please, for the love of God, can we just drop this conversation? No none is going to convince the win guys, and the win people aren't going to convince the rest of us, so let's just moveon and argue about Neifi :P

 

I asked you a couple weeks ago how your performance is measured at your place of employment. You seemed unable to give me an answer.

 

Why not begin by telling how performance is measured at your place of work before asking it of others, or will the SCORE not let you divulge that information?

 

USS is the the one that says performance doesn't matter in his work. I'm sure as a 'teacher', you have certain standards and requirements which must be met. I can tell you that teachers are underpaid for the contributions they make to our society. Nonetheless, they too have reviews from superiors based on previous performances and goals for the year.

 

CubbieRich,

 

I never once said that performance doesn't matter where I work. I did say that I was not going to engage you in a discussion about this, because it has nothing to do with the argument. It's a false analogy. Please don't put words in my proverbial online mouth.

 

And as fas as teachers go, there are many, many different standards by which to measure a good teacher, depending on the siutation. It isn't cut and dried.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

There are about 8 better, single measurments. By your logic, Roger Clemens had a crappy 2005 because he only won 13 games. Yet his ERA was below 2, and he had the lowest BAA. Is he a bum because the Astros had a terrible offense behind him?

 

We've had this exact same arugument before, probably a dozen times. Wins are a team stat, unless you expect a pitcher to drive in runs as well.

 

Clemens in 2005, Randy Johnson in 2004, Wood in 2003...You can be a dominant pitcher without a high win total.

 

Wood's health is the only acceptable knock on him. When healthy, he's a really good pitcher. But, please, for the love of God, can we just drop this conversation? No none is going to convince the win guys, and the win people aren't going to convince the rest of us, so let's just moveon and argue about Neifi :P

 

I asked you a couple weeks ago how your performance is measured at your place of employment. You seemed unable to give me an answer.

 

Why not begin by telling how performance is measured at your place of work before asking it of others, or will the SCORE not let you divulge that information?

 

USS is the the one that says performance doesn't matter in his work. I'm sure as a 'teacher', you have certain standards and requirements which must be met. I can tell you that teachers are underpaid for the contributions they make to our society. Nonetheless, they too have reviews from superiors based on previous performances and goals for the year.

 

Correct, I am evaluated. But much of my evaluation is based on things under my control. I can be evaluated on whether I teach standard based lessons, am knowledgeable of the subjects I teach, and conduct myself as a professional.

 

Do they look at the performance of my students? Certainly. But often there's a comparison to what students I have. I would be appauled if my salary and job security were based totally on the gross performance of my students when I don't have control over all of the factors that go into their performance. Should it be looked at? Certainly, just as I don't ignore wins. On the other hand, I think it is better to judge someone on the factors on which they have the most control over.

[imb]

Saying that youre a good pitcher if you win 20 games is like saying that youre a good runningback if you rush for 1000 yards, both are meaningless stats unless looked at in context.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Saying that youre a good pitcher if you win 20 games is like saying that youre a good runningback if you rush for 1000 yards, both are meaningless stats unless looked at in context.

 

It's like evaluating a QB by W/L record and pass attempts.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I wasn't unable to give you an answer. I was unwilling to indulge a groundless analogy.

 

And again, Clemens in 2005, Johnson in 2004 and Wood in 2003 are great examples of how different standards and metrics can show effectiveness of a pitcher.

 

And your historical example of 20+ wins and 250 career wins is meaningless. History is replete with revisions and littered with the remains of what were once considered gospel truths. Look at home runs in baseball, for example. Or yards by a running back in football. Or record sales for musicians.

 

Measurable metrics for success change with history, and change as we gain understanding of the different ways success can be calculated, depending on the field.

 

Way to dance away from the truth about performance.

 

Baseball-Reference, certainly a non-biased source, lists similiar pitchers and players. Here are the top 3 'similiar pitchers' for those mentioned.

 

Roger Clemens: Tom Seaver, Greg Maddux, Steve Carlton

 

Randy Johnson:: Jim Palmer, Bob Gibson, Bob Feller

 

Kerry Wood: Dave Boswell, Steve Busby, Jim Nash

 

Standards never change. 20 wins in a year, .300 BA, 100 RBI, under 2.00 ERA, etc... You can project all the numbers you want and say 'what if?'..but you have to produce on the field.

 

 

Player A through age 28: 49-48, 3.94 ERA

 

Player B through age 28: 70-54, 3.67 ERA

 

Guess which one is Randy Johnson, and which one is Kerry Wood.

[Mizzou]

 

Say what you will about wins, but there is no better single measurement for a starting pitcher.

 

You're kidding, right?

[wekse]

no, he's not.

[fromthestretch]

Say what you will about wins, but there is no better single measurement for a starting pitcher.

 

I'd be more concerned about how many of his starts the team wins than how many games for which he is credited with a win.

 

Did Nolan Ryan all of a suddenly forget how to win in 1987 when he went 8-16 despite leading the league in ERA? Was Clemens a disappointment with only 13 wins this season, when with even league average run support he probably would have won 20 games?

[CuseCubFan69]

Saying that youre a good pitcher if you win 20 games is like saying that youre a good runningback if you rush for 1000 yards, both are meaningless stats unless looked at in context.

 

It's like evaluating a QB by W/L record and pass attempts.

 

Like Brady?

[CubbieRich]

Saying that youre a good pitcher if you win 20 games is like saying that youre a good runningback if you rush for 1000 yards, both are meaningless stats unless looked at in context.

 

It's like evaluating a QB by W/L record and pass attempts.

 

Like Brady?

 

Wins by Brady mean nothing to this bunch.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Saying that youre a good pitcher if you win 20 games is like saying that youre a good runningback if you rush for 1000 yards, both are meaningless stats unless looked at in context.

 

It's like evaluating a QB by W/L record and pass attempts.

 

Like Brady?

 

Wins by Brady mean nothing to this bunch.

 

and those wins have nothing to do with the other 50+ men on the team? :?

[Jehrico]

So, you are willing to have the highest paid pitcher on your team and one of the highest paid pitchers in all of MLB, be unable to win more than 14 games in a year. That's fine-you are getting what you want. I expect and demand more from the bum. He should be leading the team not sitting on the DL.

 

That's the attitude I was referring to in my first post that I was referring to as classless. He's a bum because he's had shoulder problems using the mechanics that made him one of the most feared pitchers in baseball. I'd like to see how you react if he adopted Maddux's mechanics and couldn't keep his ERA under 6.

[Jehrico]

Say what you will about wins, but there is no better single measurement for a starting pitcher. It's been that way forever in baseball and always will be.

 

So you're saying you thought Jeff Francis, Jeff Weaver, Matt Morris, Jeff Suppan, Mark Mulder, and John Leiber had better years than Roger Clemens? Man, Houston got ripped off paying $18 million for only a lousy 13 wins.

[ironchef21]

Saying that youre a good pitcher if you win 20 games is like saying that youre a good runningback if you rush for 1000 yards, both are meaningless stats unless looked at in context.

 

It's like evaluating a QB by W/L record and pass attempts.

 

Like Brady?

 

Or like Trent Dilfer with the 2000 Ravens? I think the point is that with wins & losses, you have to look at context.

 

I don't think of Wood as an elite pitcher, but to hold his W/L record against him without considering the atrocious bullpens we've had in recent years and poor offense is unfair.

[Mark Priors Calves]

Here's a quote from everyone's favorite anti-Joe Morgan blog.

 

Roger Clemens should not win the Cy Young award for individual achievement in pitching because of the failures of the other 24 guys on his team. Explain that. Imagine I run a world record-setting opening leg of a 4x100 relay. I blow everyone else away. Then the next guy stumbles and accidentally swallows the baton and poops in his pants and we lose. Am I a bad runner?

 

I can't believe we're having another argument about the value of wins.

[Mizzou]

Saying that youre a good pitcher if you win 20 games is like saying that youre a good runningback if you rush for 1000 yards, both are meaningless stats unless looked at in context.

 

It's like evaluating a QB by W/L record and pass attempts.

 

Like Brady?

 

Wins by Brady mean nothing to this bunch.

 

You're right. Wins by the Patriots certainly do though.

[badger1679666666]

I'm totally ignorant to baseball acumen too. can I get a job at the Score to like our good friend CR? I need one bad anyway.

 

Hows this "Batting average is the the most important offensive statistic. History as shown that."

 

I've never seen more idiotic ARGUMENTS, (not attacking the poster) than I've seen in this thread from one single person.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

So, you are willing to have the highest paid pitcher on your team and one of the highest paid pitchers in all of MLB, be unable to win more than 14 games in a year. That's fine-you are getting what you want. I expect and demand more from the bum. He should be leading the team not sitting on the DL. Hendry was foolish to sign him to such a $$$$ contract for what he thought Wood was going to do. I heard concerns that Wood would walk if he didn't get such a contract, Hendry blinked and caved in.

 

The good pitchers have enough sense to make changes in their mechanics if they are getting pounded, can't locate their pitches..or even when they are consistently injured and on the DL. To say Wood can't change his mechanics is even more reason to dump him. Look at Chris Carpenter(2005 Cy Young winner), he was hurt and changed his mechanics.

 

Say what you will about wins, but there is no better single measurement for a starting pitcher. It's been that way forever in baseball and always will be. Wood can't get win when you have 100 pitches in 5 innings or when your pitching coach makes 4 trips in the 1st 5 innings.

 

I just heard a replay of an interview with Chris Carpenter on the "The Show" with Rob Dibble and Kevin Kennedy. Dibble asked Carpenter if he changed his mechanics any since his time in Toronto. Carpenter answered, "No." So, according to Carpenter, he did not change his mechanics.

[David]

 

So, you are willing to have the highest paid pitcher on your team and one of the highest paid pitchers in all of MLB, be unable to win more than 14 games in a year. That's fine-you are getting what you want. I expect and demand more from the bum. He should be leading the team not sitting on the DL. Hendry was foolish to sign him to such a $$$$ contract for what he thought Wood was going to do. I heard concerns that Wood would walk if he didn't get such a contract, Hendry blinked and caved in.

 

The good pitchers have enough sense to make changes in their mechanics if they are getting pounded, can't locate their pitches..or even when they are consistently injured and on the DL. To say Wood can't change his mechanics is even more reason to dump him. Look at Chris Carpenter(2005 Cy Young winner), he was hurt and changed his mechanics.

 

Say what you will about wins, but there is no better single measurement for a starting pitcher. It's been that way forever in baseball and always will be. Wood can't get win when you have 100 pitches in 5 innings or when your pitching coach makes 4 trips in the 1st 5 innings.

 

I just heard a replay of an interview with Chris Carpenter on the "The Show" with Rob Dibble and Kevin Kennedy. Dibble asked Carpenter if he changed his mechanics any since his time in Toronto. Carpenter answered, "No." So, according to Carpenter, he did not change his mechanics.

 

Oh, SNAP! PWNT hahaha :lol:

[ConstableRabbit]

 

Say what you will about wins, but there is no better single measurement for a starting pitcher.

 

Ok CubbieRich, wins can be used to evaluate a pitcher. However, they don't tell you how good he actually pitches, hurls, throws the ball. If there are two pitchers on your team, one with a high era and more wins, the other with a low era and less wins, clearly the pitcher with the high era, was more valuable to your team during that year because when he pitched, for whatever reason, the team won. I think that was the point you were trying to convey. However, a flaw in this argument is that the reason why he won more could be anything, including luck. The argument against wins is that it seems to ignore the fact that during the course of that season, the pitcher with the low era was a better pitcher. Had he been given the same run support, luck, etc. he would've won more games plain and simple.

 

Do you mean to say that given two free agent pitchers, you would pay more for a guy like Russ Ortiz in 2003, who had an era approaching 4 despite having 21 wins, than you would for a guy like Clemens in 2005, who had an era under 2 and "only" 13 wins?

[David]

I've had someone go as far as to say that Estes was a better pitcher than Johnson in 2004. When I asked him if he could sign either one to the Giants (his favorite team), he refused to admit he was wrong and he insisted he'd sign Estes. :roll:

 

I'm done with the 'wins' arguments. Some people choose to stay in the dark. So be it.

[hawkeyecub]

You can't compare baseball to football though. I agree that you can't just judge a QB by their W/L record, but it is something that holds some merit when you look at the other factors. Some QB's are much better at controlling a game and doing what they have to do to win. Others make mistakes in critical times and do just enough to lose games.

A pitcher's W/L record is almost totally meaningless.

It's like chemistry and playing as a team. It doesn't mean much in baseball, but has it's place in football and basketball.

[badger1679666666]

 

So, you are willing to have the highest paid pitcher on your team and one of the highest paid pitchers in all of MLB, be unable to win more than 14 games in a year. That's fine-you are getting what you want. I expect and demand more from the bum. He should be leading the team not sitting on the DL. Hendry was foolish to sign him to such a $$$$ contract for what he thought Wood was going to do. I heard concerns that Wood would walk if he didn't get such a contract, Hendry blinked and caved in.

 

The good pitchers have enough sense to make changes in their mechanics if they are getting pounded, can't locate their pitches..or even when they are consistently injured and on the DL. To say Wood can't change his mechanics is even more reason to dump him. Look at Chris Carpenter(2005 Cy Young winner), he was hurt and changed his mechanics.

 

Say what you will about wins, but there is no better single measurement for a starting pitcher. It's been that way forever in baseball and always will be. Wood can't get win when you have 100 pitches in 5 innings or when your pitching coach makes 4 trips in the 1st 5 innings.

 

I just heard a replay of an interview with Chris Carpenter on the "The Show" with Rob Dibble and Kevin Kennedy. Dibble asked Carpenter if he changed his mechanics any since his time in Toronto. Carpenter answered, "No." So, according to Carpenter, he did not change his mechanics.

 

 

PWNED!!!!!!!!!!!111oneoneone

[stitchface]

Saying that youre a good pitcher if you win 20 games is like saying that youre a good runningback if you rush for 1000 yards, both are meaningless stats unless looked at in context.

 

It's like evaluating a QB by W/L record and pass attempts.

 

Like Brady?

 

Wins by Brady mean nothing to this bunch.

 

oh, they mean a lot. he should retire since he clearly forgot how to win this year.

[bc2k]

what kind of tough question were you wanting to ask?

 

Have you fixed your bad mechanics so you won't get injured again?

 

Isn't it Ironic that you joked/took a stab at Steve Stone criticizing your mechanics earlier in the year by saying "Maybe someone can teach me better Mechanics, I don't know", and then later in the year you were shut down YET AGAIN!!?

 

When you go down again next year, will you please stay in the 8th inning, because that's the only way you can actually help this team.

 

Would you please waive your non trade clause to get traded so you don't ruin another one of our chances with your injuries?

 

feel free to use any one of those. . . :roll:

 

why is it that people expect wood to be able to 'fix' his broken mechanics? if his mechanics are bad and are the cause of his injury, complain about the coaching staff failing to fix them, not a guy in his mid 20s w/ no coaching/mechanic fixing experience.

 

it's not like rothschild has the magic key to fix the problem but wood has refused to use it.

 

At $12 million for 2006, I expect this bum to lead the team. I expect more than 14 wins. I expect him to be man enough to change his mechanics in order to fulfill his obligations. Take responsiblity for your previous failures and waive your no-trade clause.

 

There's that magic word yet again - "bum".

 

Dobson, you need to post more so I can see the girl in your avatar more. Who is that?