Rolen regresses

[indifferent]

Woo hoo! Molina makes his return to the lineup tonight's game (and I will be there to welcome him back!)

[UK1679666180]

The fact that Carpenter can go deep into games throwing a little amount of pitches and still be very effective shows that he has great stamina and isn't being abused.

 

No, it means he is efficent with his pitches throwing deep into a ballgame that doesn't equate to him not being abused.

 

The only way you can tell if a pitcher is or isn't being abused is thru sight. I haven't watched all of his starts, so I can't you tell if he's been left put there while fatigued, the low pitch counts decrease the odds but guarantee nothing.

 

You can tell if a manager/PC is being careless by leaving a pitcher in there despite the score. Baker was terrible with this w/Zambrano last year and it appears LaRussa has been with Carpenter at times.

 

Ahh, I knew there was a reason I watched every game this year, save a few! Given that criteria, I can tell you that Marquis has definitely been abused this year, Morris not too far behind him. The last time I saw Carp fatigued, working slowly, or laboring was his blow up against Philly in April.

 

I only trust my eyes in this regard, I put my trust into a PC if I'm unable to watch the game. But, I've seen so many pitchers abused at the HS level in cold weather.

[TruffleShuffle]

I've caught just about every Carpenter start except for a few games early in the season when I was still in class and I can tell you for sure that the last thing Carpenter looks to be when he's going into the 8th and 9th innings is fatigued.

 

That still doesn't mean there won't be adverse effects from the workload. I remember back in 2003, Zambrano always seemed to get stronger as the game went on, but he was being worked hard. By September he was really worn down, and had a lingering back injury that seemed to throw off the location of his pitches. He was basically a non-factor in the 2 playoff series the Cubs played.

 

Carpenter looks strong right now, but when he surpasses a career high in innings, pitches, etc., and still has at least one and possibly three playoff series to pitch in, that's when it could catch up with him. If the Cards end up going to the World Series, he could be pushing close to 300 innings by the time the season is up. I don't care how efficient he is with his pitches, that's a hell of a workload.

[Criminal5]

OK, so considering that Lee was actually a bit of a disappointment last season (114 OPS+ versus 131 and 135 the previous two seasons), it's about even. Either way, you're talking about one of two or three Cubs who have exceeded expectations... not exactly a club full of overachievers.

 

Not a rise from last season, from their career numbers. Should've clarified.

[indifferent]

Interesting reading on Cards scrubs...

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4341

[SirPlopigus]

J-Rod has sucked the past month

[vaball]

Molina's coming back tonight? Sweet. Good bye Mahoney.

 

Just get the surgery Scott and come back next season. There's a lot of years left on that contract.

[indifferent]

Just get the surgery Scott and come back next season. There's a lot of years left on that contract.

 

My sentiments exactly.

[indifferent]

The fact that Carpenter can go deep into games throwing a little amount of pitches and still be very effective shows that he has great stamina and isn't being abused.

 

No, it means he is efficent with his pitches throwing deep into a ballgame that doesn't equate to him not being abused.

 

The only way you can tell if a pitcher is or isn't being abused is thru sight. I haven't watched all of his starts, so I can't you tell if he's been left put there while fatigued, the low pitch counts decrease the odds but guarantee nothing.

 

You can tell if a manager/PC is being careless by leaving a pitcher in there despite the score. Baker was terrible with this w/Zambrano last year and it appears LaRussa has been with Carpenter at times.

 

Ahh, I knew there was a reason I watched every game this year, save a few! Given that criteria, I can tell you that Marquis has definitely been abused this year, Morris not too far behind him. The last time I saw Carp fatigued, working slowly, or laboring was his blow up against Philly in April.

 

I only trust my eyes in this regard, I put my trust into a PC if I'm unable to watch the game. But, I've seen so many pitchers abused at the HS level in cold weather.

 

Marquis was abused again tonight, eyes witnessed it.

[XZero771679666304]

The fact that Carpenter can go deep into games throwing a little amount of pitches and still be very effective shows that he has great stamina and isn't being abused.

 

No, it means he is efficent with his pitches throwing deep into a ballgame that doesn't equate to him not being abused.

 

The only way you can tell if a pitcher is or isn't being abused is thru sight. I haven't watched all of his starts, so I can't you tell if he's been left put there while fatigued, the low pitch counts decrease the odds but guarantee nothing.

 

You can tell if a manager/PC is being careless by leaving a pitcher in there despite the score. Baker was terrible with this w/Zambrano last year and it appears LaRussa has been with Carpenter at times.

 

Ahh, I knew there was a reason I watched every game this year, save a few! Given that criteria, I can tell you that Marquis has definitely been abused this year, Morris not too far behind him. The last time I saw Carp fatigued, working slowly, or laboring was his blow up against Philly in April.

 

I only trust my eyes in this regard, I put my trust into a PC if I'm unable to watch the game. But, I've seen so many pitchers abused at the HS level in cold weather.

 

Marquis was abused again tonight, eyes witnessed it.

 

You're not the only one who has noticed.

 

ason Marquis - S - STL

 

 

Jason Marquis yielded six runs and 10 hits in 7 2/3 innings tonight in a loss to the Diamondbacks.

This is two outings in a row in which Marquis has simply been left in too long. Six days ago, he struggled in the sixth and was over 100 pitches, but he was still sent back out to give up two runs in the seventh. He was pulled tonight after giving up three straight hits, the second scoring a run, in the eighth. The two baserunners he left on came around off Julian Tavarez. Aug. 18 - 11:53 pm et

[K-Town]

The fact that Carpenter can go deep into games throwing a little amount of pitches and still be very effective shows that he has great stamina and isn't being abused.

 

No, it means he is efficent with his pitches throwing deep into a ballgame that doesn't equate to him not being abused.

 

The only way you can tell if a pitcher is or isn't being abused is thru sight. I haven't watched all of his starts, so I can't you tell if he's been left put there while fatigued, the low pitch counts decrease the odds but guarantee nothing.

 

You can tell if a manager/PC is being careless by leaving a pitcher in there despite the score. Baker was terrible with this w/Zambrano last year and it appears LaRussa has been with Carpenter at times.

 

 

Which games have you seen Carpenter be "abused" in? Because as you bolded above, the only way to tell if a pitcher is being abused is through sight.

 

 

Marquis is being abused in every sense of the word, but I don't really care, because he sucks anyway.

 

Based on pitch counts, based on personally seeing Carpenter pitch almost every game this year, based on Pitcher Abuse Points, and based on Carpenter's dominance in innings 7 thru 9, I think it's fair to say that Carpenter isn't being abused.

 

We're in August, people. There's a month and a half to play. I honestly believe that Carpenter will be coddled in September. But as pointed out earlier, the Cards don't believe in "taking the foot off of the gas pedal" just because you're ahead in the race. I think you lose your edge when you do that.

 

Like I said, it's looked to me like Morris and Marquis have been more abused than Carpenter. So do you put them on a short leash, too? Pretty soon you've got your entire starting rotation only going 6 inning, and I'll be here trying to defend Larussa when his bullpen is shot.

 

It's a no-win situation. The Cards' coaching staff has had (for the most part) an injury-free pitching staff for almost 2 years in a row, and have had the most effective pitching staff for 2 years in a row. Yet some still think they're being mis-used. I think I'll go with Larussa/Duncan on this one, but thanks for the advice. :wink:

[K-Town]

Nunez is far less of an overachiever than Derrek Lee this year, don't you think?

 

No. Lee at least was a good player before this season, albeit not a great one. Nunez was a terrible player and has been above-average this year.

 

Nunez has seen a 185-point boost in OPS.

 

Lee? 240.

 

OK, so considering that Lee was actually a bit of a disappointment last season (114 OPS+ versus 131 and 135 the previous two seasons), it's about even. Either way, you're talking about one of two or three Cubs who have exceeded expectations... not exactly a club full of overachievers.

 

Nor are the Cards a club-full of overachievers.

 

Grudz has been pretty average. So has Eck. Pujols is having a typical year. Rolen hasn't helped the team at all. Sanders, Walker, Molina..... all disappointing seasons because of injury, and pretty average years when they were playing. Mulder has disappointed. Marquis hasn't been very good. Morris is just an average pitcher these days. Carpenter is having a career year along the lines of Derrek Lee. Suppan is steady, but certainly not spectacular. Reyes has been exceptional, I'll give you that.

 

Nunez? He has a 1.006 OPS when batting 2nd in the lineup. You think maybe he's seeing some pretty good pitches, with Pujols standing in the on-deck circle? :lol: When batting anywhere else in the lineup, he's pretty much hovered at or below his career numbers. So there's your explanation.

 

 

Did you guys expect Murton to put up an .880 OPS after never seeing a game above the AA level?

[UK1679666180]

The fact that Carpenter can go deep into games throwing a little amount of pitches and still be very effective shows that he has great stamina and isn't being abused.

 

No, it means he is efficent with his pitches throwing deep into a ballgame that doesn't equate to him not being abused.

 

The only way you can tell if a pitcher is or isn't being abused is thru sight. I haven't watched all of his starts, so I can't you tell if he's been left put there while fatigued, the low pitch counts decrease the odds but guarantee nothing.

 

You can tell if a manager/PC is being careless by leaving a pitcher in there despite the score. Baker was terrible with this w/Zambrano last year and it appears LaRussa has been with Carpenter at times.

 

 

Which games have you seen Carpenter be "abused" in? Because as you bolded above, the only way to tell if a pitcher is being abused is through sight.

 

 

Marquis is being abused in every sense of the word, but I don't really care, because he sucks anyway.

 

Based on pitch counts, based on personally seei

 

ng Carpenter pitch almost every game this year, based on Pitcher Abuse Points, and based on Carpenter's dominance in innings 7 thru 9, I think it's fair to say that Carpenter isn't being abused.

 

We're in August, people. There's a month and a half to play. I honestly believe that Carpenter will be coddled in September. But as pointed out earlier, the Cards don't believe in "taking the foot off of the gas pedal" just because you're ahead in the race. I think you lose your edge when you do that.

 

Like I said, it's looked to me like Morris and Marquis have been more abused than Carpenter. So do you put them on a short leash, too? Pretty soon you've got your entire starting rotation only going 6 inning, and I'll be here trying to defend Larussa when his bullpen is shot.

 

It's a no-win situation. The Cards' coaching staff has had (for the most part) an injury-free pitching staff for almost 2 years in a row, and have had the most effective pitching staff for 2 years in a row. Yet some still think they're being mis-used. I think I'll go with Larussa/Duncan on this one, but thanks for the advice. :wink:

 

Who said Carpenter was being abused? I've only watched Carpenter a handful of times and it hasn't come to mind that he is being left out there too long.

 

Quit trying to stir when there is nothing there to stir.

 

As far as being to be cautious (you can never coddle a pitcher) with Carpenter in Sept., if you're worried about them burning out the pen by limiting starting pitchers, that have roster expansion. If they can burn out a pen with 7-10 relievers, god bless them.

 

I'll be here trying to defend Larussa when his bullpen is shot.

 

Why defend him if he does something wrong?

[K-Town]

You said that Larussa had been "careless" with Carpenter. I guess I'm not sure what you meant by that.

 

I'm not talking about September. Some folks are saying that it's too late, the damage is already done, and Larussa should have taken better care of Carpenter. Up to this point, I just don't see how he should have handled things differently.

[UK1679666180]

You said that Larussa had been "careless" with Carpenter. I guess I'm not sure what you meant by that.

 

I'm not talking about September. Some folks are saying that it's too late, the damage is already done, and Larussa should have taken better care of Carpenter. Up to this point, I just don't see how he should have handled things differently.

 

I said based on when the game has already been decided, he has left Carpenter out there too long several times. You go thru his game log and he was out there beyond the point he needed to be out there, he'll likely have a higher level of fatigue around 95 pitches, not to the point where's adjusted his mechanics or overthrowing, but he's left him out there too long. If you respond, "he's trying to save his pen", it'll be just as easy to check the game log and find pitchers who did not pitch the night before. To me, that would be the safer route to go during the course of the season as the wear and tear is accumulative.

[K-Town]

You said that Larussa had been "careless" with Carpenter. I guess I'm not sure what you meant by that.

 

I'm not talking about September. Some folks are saying that it's too late, the damage is already done, and Larussa should have taken better care of Carpenter. Up to this point, I just don't see how he should have handled things differently.

 

I said based on when the game has already been decided, he has left Carpenter out there too long several times. You go thru his game log and he was out there beyond the point he needed to be out there, he'll likely have a higher level of fatigue around 95 pitches, not to the point where's adjusted his mechanics or overthrowing, but he's left him out there too long. If you respond, "he's trying to save his pen", it'll be just as easy to check the game log and find pitchers who did not pitch the night before. To me, that would be the safer route to go during the course of the season as the wear and tear is accumulative.

 

Maybe. You can make the case that he could have been more "careful", and probably make a good one. But I don't think there's a precedence for a manager "coddling" his pitchers in July. Maybe there is. Larussa's style is for each and every player to keep the pedal to the metal to keep from getting complacent. It's seemed to work well (with the exception of 4 World Series games last year). Larussa certainly isn't perfect, but based on what I've seen, I trust him.

[UK1679666180]

Trust him all you want, I tend to look at issues at face value.

[K-Town]

Carpenter's last start was a 5-2 win (not exactly a "blowout"), in which Carpenter threw 109 pitches, in which Carpenter retired the last 9 batters he faced. It was against the Cubs. You probably saw it, so I assume you could make a pretty good judgment about whether Larussa was careless.

 

Before that, Carpenter threw 8 innings in a game that wasn't decided until the 9th inning, when the Cards rallied. Carpenter retired the last 20 batters he faced. I don't think he was working very hard. This was an important game against the Braves, so I don't fault Larussa for leaving his ace in there.

 

Before that was a 3-1 win against Florida. Again, it's not exactly like Carpenter was left in a "blowout". Carpenter allowed 2 baserunners after the 3rd inning. Again, not exactly a "struggle" for him.

 

Before that was an 11-3 game, where Carpenter was pulled after 7 innings.

 

Before that was a 2-1 win against the Cubs, that the Cards won in the 11th inning. Carpenter went 9 (109 pitches), and retired 9 of the last 10 hitters he faced.

 

Go back further than that, and you're in early July. Carpenter was throwin 112-114 pitches. Should Larussa have been more careful in early July? Is 114 pitches too many for a pitcher who is "cruising"? I don't know.

[K-Town]

Trust him all you want, I tend to look at issues at face value.

 

I don't even know what that means. How do you put a face value on a pitcher or a manager?

[UK1679666180]

Carpenter's last start was a 5-2 win (not exactly a "blowout"), in which Carpenter threw 109 pitches, in which Carpenter retired the last 9 batters he faced. It was against the Cubs. You probably saw it, so I assume you could make a pretty good judgment about whether Larussa was careless.

 

Before that, Carpenter threw 8 innings in a game that wasn't decided until the 9th inning, when the Cards rallied. Carpenter retired the last 20 batters he faced. I don't think he was working very hard. This was an important game against the Braves, so I don't fault Larussa for leaving his ace in there.

 

Before that was a 3-1 win against Florida. Again, it's not exactly like Carpenter was left in a "blowout". Carpenter allowed 2 baserunners after the 3rd inning. Again, not exactly a "struggle" for him.

 

Before that was an 11-3 game, where Carpenter was pulled after 7 innings.

 

Before that was a 2-1 win against the Cubs, that the Cards won in the 11th inning. Carpenter went 9 (109 pitches), and retired 9 of the last 10 hitters he faced.

 

Go back further than that, and you're in early July. Carpenter was throwin 112-114 pitches. Should Larussa have been more careful in early July? Is 114 pitches too many for a pitcher who is "cruising"? I don't know.

 

In that 11-3 game, it was 7 IP but he was near 110 pitches, why not pull him and inning earlier and keep him around 95-100?

 

4 games I would would've taken Carpenter an inning earlier:

6/20

6/25

7/1

7/28

 

That should be considered a luxury to take out a pitcher early b/c of the game of score (assuming winning team).

 

Yes, LaRussa should've taken out Carpenter early when he had the chance, every manager should. No pitcher likes being pulled early espec. when they are pitching well, but they'll accept the decision.

 

Once again, wear and tear on a pitcher is accumulative, if you get the chance to rest a starter early, take it!

 

Heck, I would've called up Reyes or another AAA starter and skip various starts for the pitchers at diff. points of the year.

 

Larussa certainly isn't perfect, but based on what I've seen, I trust him.

 

That's not taking things at face value.

[K-Town]

UK - You're back to pitch counts again, with a disregard for actually seeing him throw. He was clearly cruising in those games.

 

You would have taken him out of 2 games in June, when the race hadn't been decided yet, even though he'd thrown under 100 pitches?

 

What if you ended up needing him to throw 120 pitches in an important game in September, but he was only conditioned (at that point, using your theory) to throw 90 or 95? As it stands, Carpenter is averaging fewer than 100 pitches per game for the season. To me, that's not even close to being out of line.

 

If you think that Larussa is out of line with Carpenter, you should look back in June at what Cox was doing to Smoltz, or what happened in Tim Hudson's last start. Cox has been pretty successful too.

 

I don't know. I guess a case can be made, but it's a weak on, in my opinion.

[gus_dog]

The Cards' rotation has been incredibly healthy for the last 2 years. At one point do you stop thinking that it's "luck", and wonder if the coaches know what they're doing?

More than likely, they will never stop believing in luck

 

Ahhhh, the anonymous 'they'. Who exactly are 'they'?

[K-Town]

The Cards' rotation has been incredibly healthy for the last 2 years. At one point do you stop thinking that it's "luck", and wonder if the coaches know what they're doing?

More than likely, they will never stop believing in luck

 

Ahhhh, the anonymous 'they'. Who exactly are 'they'?

 

I would assume he means the ones who currently believe in luck. Point being (just like always), nobody's opinion will be swayed on a message board (believe me, I try harder than anybody! :lol: )

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The Cards' rotation has been incredibly healthy for the last 2 years. At one point do you stop thinking that it's "luck", and wonder if the coaches know what they're doing?

More than likely, they will never stop believing in luck

 

Ahhhh, the anonymous 'they'. Who exactly are 'they'?

 

I would assume he means the ones who currently believe in luck. Point being (just like always), nobody's opinion will be swayed on a message board (believe me, I try harder than anybody! :lol: )

 

That's not entirely true. My opinion has been swayed. Opinions can be changed, but only when people approach these places as open exchanges of ideas.

 

You complain that no one ever changes their opinion. Have you ever changed one of yours as a result of a message forum?

 

Finally, if you believe no one ever changes their opinions, why do you waste your time here or any other forum for that matter.

 

I strongly believe that if someone makes an informed case that it can assist others. It may take a lot, and at times, it means accepting that some people come here with certain preconceived notions which take longer to change if they ever change, but ideas can be changed. However, if someone approaches it with the idea that all their ideas are right and that they shouldn't learn from others, I find it hypocritical to complain or mock others who also hold to their ideas.

[K-Town]

That's not entirely true. My opinion has been swayed. Opinions can be changed, but only when people approach these places as open exchanges of ideas.

 

You complain that no one ever changes their opinion. Have you ever changed one of yours as a result of a message forum?

 

Finally, if you believe no one ever changes their opinions, why do you waste your time here or any other forum for that matter.

 

I strongly believe that if someone makes an informed case that it can assist others. It may take a lot, and at times, it means accepting that some people come here with certain preconceived notions which take longer to change if they ever change, but ideas can be changed. However, if someone approaches it with the idea that all their ideas are right and that they shouldn't learn from others, I find it hypocritical to complain or mock others who also hold to their ideas.

 

I'm not complaining, and it's not my intention to mock others.

 

Have I ever been swayed? Well, I finally conceded in the Clemens/Carpenter thread that Clemens should probably win the Cy Young Award.