Rolen regresses

[wolf stansson]

Story

Crap. I hope he opts for the surgery. I want him back 100% next year.

Edited August 18, 2005 by wolf stansson

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Bummer, why couldn't it have been Edmonds instead of Rolen?

[jjgman21]

 

Crap.

 

welcome to our world. the difference of course is yet another crappy utility player is having a stellar year for the Cardinals

[The Voice of Reason]

 

Crap.

 

welcome to our world. the difference of course is yet another crappy utility player is having a stellar year for the Cardinals

 

 

 

How many starting pitchers for the Cardinals have missed signifcant time this year due to injury (as Wood and Prior have)? Position players are easier to replace than starting pitchers.

[moorecg]

 

Crap.

 

welcome to our world. the difference of course is yet another crappy utility player is having a stellar year for the Cardinals

 

 

 

How many starting pitchers for the Cardinals have missed signifcant time this year due to injury (as Wood and Prior have)? Position players are easier to replace than starting pitchers.

 

Not one.

 

The first time anyone other than their 5 starters, started a game was when they called Reyes up to set their rotation before the Cub series...that was the only time this year that Carp, Mulder, Morris, Suppan or Marquis wasn't the starter.

 

Pretty amazing considering we've had like 15 different starters.

[1wizard]

How many starting pitchers for the Cardinals have missed signifcant time this year due to injury (as Wood and Prior have)? Position players are easier to replace than starting pitchers.

 

Injuries are a part of the game and the team just has to over come them. Moreover, the Cardinals have had their share of pitching injuries over the years. If you remember the 2003 seaon, the Cards had such great pitches as Estaban Yan, Jason Simontachi, Pedro Borbon, Brett Tomko, and Dustin Hermannson in their rotation due to injuries and the death of DK. So the Cubs are not in a position that the Cardinals have not faced in the recent years. Lastly, the Cardinals lost their ace last year right before the playoffs. And Matty Mo and Woody were both playing thru injuries in the playoffs.

[jjgman21]

How many starting pitchers for the Cardinals have missed signifcant time this year due to injury (as Wood and Prior have)? Position players are easier to replace than starting pitchers.

 

Injuries are a part of the game and the team just has to over come them. Moreover, the Cardinals have had their share of pitching injuries over the years. If you remember the 2003 seaon, the Cards had such great pitches as Estaban Yan, Jason Simontachi, Pedro Borbon, Brett Tomko, and Dustin Hermannson in their rotation due to injuries and the death of DK. So the Cubs are not in a position that the Cardinals have not faced in the recent years. Lastly, the Cardinals lost their ace last year right before the playoffs. And Matty Mo and Woody were both playing thru injuries in the playoffs.

 

 

aaawwwww. let's all weep because the Cardinals had one year where crap players didn't perform out of their minds, and way out of their career norms, for the Cardinals. what about Sterling Hitchcock in 2003? the Cards had all of 9 pitchers start games for them that year. the only complaint you could possibly have about 2003 is the buckets of flan Jocketty accumulated in the bullpen didn't all have career years like the Cards pen the past two years.

 

as for the bolded part above, if LaRussa keeps running him out there to unnecesarily accumulate innings, you very well may see that again.

 

final score, IP, pitch counts for Carpenter over the past two months

 

7-0, 9, 95

6-1, 8, 109

8-0, 9, 103

6-0, 8.2, 112

2-1, 8.0, 112

3-0, 9.0, 114

2-1, 9, 106

11-3, 7, 109

3-1, 9, 109

5-3, 8, 113

5-2, 9, 109

 

all with the Cards holding double digit lead in the division, all with the Cards having the least used bullpen in all of baseball.

 

hey, let's run a guy who had reconstructive surgery two years ago out for 250 innings. if I were a Cardinal fan, my feathers would be ruffled. WS > Cy Young.

[SirPlopigus]

As long as he isn't making a ton of pitches, he could pitch complete games for all I care

[Garwilly]

How many starting pitchers for the Cardinals have missed signifcant time this year due to injury (as Wood and Prior have)? Position players are easier to replace than starting pitchers.

 

Injuries are a part of the game and the team just has to over come them. Moreover, the Cardinals have had their share of pitching injuries over the years. If you remember the 2003 seaon, the Cards had such great pitches as Estaban Yan, Jason Simontachi, Pedro Borbon, Brett Tomko, and Dustin Hermannson in their rotation due to injuries and the death of DK. So the Cubs are not in a position that the Cardinals have not faced in the recent years. Lastly, the Cardinals lost their ace last year right before the playoffs. And Matty Mo and Woody were both playing thru injuries in the playoffs.

 

While the loss of DK was tragic, it happened in June of 2002.

[1wizard]

While the loss of DK was tragic, it happened in June of 2002.

 

Correct, but it also had an affect on the 2003 team. It is hard to replace an ace and team leader in the off season.

 

jjgman21 wrote

aaawwwww. let's all weep because the Cardinals had one year where crap players didn't perform out of their minds, and way out of their career norms, for the Cardinals. what about Sterling Hitchcock in 2003? the Cards had all of 9 pitchers start games for them that year. the only complaint you could possibly have about 2003 is the buckets of flan Jocketty accumulated in the bullpen didn't all have career years like the Cards pen the past two years.

 

as for the bolded part above, if LaRussa keeps running him out there to unnecesarily accumulate innings, you very well may see that again.

 

Not looking for sympathy. In fact, I was pointing out that all teams have injuries and debunking this myth that the Cardinals never have injuries to their pitching staff. Moreover, if any one was crying it was the previous posters (read the whole thread).

 

As for TLR's handing of Carp, I am not worried about it. Carp is not struggling out there to get thru 9 innings; TLR is not just leaving him out there to rack up innings as you are alluding to.

 

Was your fur ruffled when Dusty left Z in for the 9th inning last night? He threw 100 something thru 8 and ended with 116 pitches. That is more than Carp has thrown in any of his games the last two months.

 

And to relieve your worries, TLR has already said that Carp, Mulder, and Morris will be getting extra days off in the coming month. The Cards are expected to call up Reyes and possible Wainwright to give the starters extra days between starts.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Was your fur ruffled when Dusty left Z in for the 9th inning last night? He threw 100 something thru 8 and ended with 116 pitches. That is more than Carp has thrown in any of his games the last two months.

 

I didn't like it a lot, but it's not exactly a comparable situation. The Cubs have neither a double digit lead, nor the least used bullpen in the game.

[SirPlopigus]

If Rolen needs surgery, he needs to get it so he can be healthy for next year. As long as Walker and Sanders can come back, I think they can do without Rolen

[The Voice of Reason]

Not looking for sympathy. In fact, I was pointing out that all teams have injuries and debunking this myth that the Cardinals never have injuries to their pitching staff.

 

 

This year, a Cardinal starter hasn't missed a start. There is no comparison between the injuries the Cubs have suffered this year and those the Cards have suffered. Cards do deserve credit for how well their bench as played - probably have done better than the regulars would have.

[1wizard]

This year, a Cardinal starter hasn't missed a start. There is no comparison between the injuries the Cubs have suffered this year and those the Cards have suffered. Cards do deserve credit for how well their bench as played - probably have done better than the regulars would have.

 

It happens and still could happen to the Cardinals. In fact, the Cardinals did not suffer any injuries until right before the playoffs last year: Carp and Kline. Despite popular belief, the Cardinal's pitchers are human and are suseptible to injuries too.

[K-Town]

aaawwwww. let's all weep because the Cardinals had one year where crap players didn't perform out of their minds, and way out of their career norms, for the Cardinals. what about Sterling Hitchcock in 2003? the Cards had all of 9 pitchers start games for them that year. the only complaint you could possibly have about 2003 is the buckets of flan Jocketty accumulated in the bullpen didn't all have career years like the Cards pen the past two years.

 

Didn't Glendon Rusch perform "out of his mind" when he filled in for Prior for 4 or 5 starts this year? It goes both ways.

 

as for the bolded part above, if LaRussa keeps running him out there to unnecesarily accumulate innings, you very well may see that again.

 

final score, IP, pitch counts for Carpenter over the past two months

 

7-0, 9, 95

6-1, 8, 109

8-0, 9, 103

6-0, 8.2, 112

2-1, 8.0, 112

3-0, 9.0, 114

2-1, 9, 106

11-3, 7, 109

3-1, 9, 109

5-3, 8, 113

5-2, 9, 109

 

all with the Cards holding double digit lead in the division, all with the Cards having the least used bullpen in all of baseball.

 

hey, let's run a guy who had reconstructive surgery two years ago out for 250 innings. if I were a Cardinal fan, my feathers would be ruffled. WS > Cy Young.

 

The reconstructive surgery isn't a factor anymore. Most pitchers eventually end up being stronger after surgery than they were before.

 

Personally, I'm relieved to see (from your list above) that Carpenter hasn't gone over 120 pitches even one time lately. It's not like Carpenter is struggling to get into the late innings. He's typically stronger when he leaves the game than he was when he started. When a pitcher starts wearing down late in the game, and his mechanics become flawed, that's when you need to worry. That's not hte case for Carpenter. Furthermore, the schedule has worked out well so that each starter for the Cards is managing to get an extra day off between most starts (that's why Reyes was called up last week, to give the other starters an extra day).

 

 

Zambrano is 2nd in all of baseball in Pitcher Abuse Points this year.

 

Prior is 11th (despite missing several starts).

 

Clemens is 22nd, despite the fact that he hasn't managed to finish a game all year

 

Carpenter is way down the list, at 31st.

 

 

The Cards' rotation has been incredibly healthy for the last 2 years. At one point do you stop thinking that it's "luck", and wonder if the coaches know what they're doing?

 

After seeing what Anthony Reyes can do, the Cards' opponents should probably be thankful that the Cards haven't needed to put him in the rotation this year.

[indifferent]

Not looking for sympathy. In fact, I was pointing out that all teams have injuries and debunking this myth that the Cardinals never have injuries to their pitching staff.

 

 

This year, a Cardinal starter hasn't missed a start. There is no comparison between the injuries the Cubs have suffered this year and those the Cards have suffered. Cards do deserve credit for how well their bench as played - probably have done better than the regulars would have.

 

I'm not saying which team has been hit harder by injuries (although perhaps the nod goes to the Cubs and I'm not entirely sold on that), but I don't think you can consider an injury not as severe because one team has better replacements than the other. Timing of injuries IMO is only a factor when they coincide with each other. The Cubs were hardest hit when Prior and Wood were gone at the same time. The Cards were hardest hit when four of our regular position players were down at the same time.

[jjgman21]

 

 

As for TLR's handing of Carp, I am not worried about it. Carp is not struggling out there to get thru 9 innings; TLR is not just leaving him out there to rack up innings as you are alluding to.

 

Was your fur ruffled when Dusty left Z in for the 9th inning last night? He threw 100 something thru 8 and ended with 116 pitches. That is more than Carp has thrown in any of his games the last two months.

 

 

this is exactly what I figured the response would be. there seems to be alot of Card fans who refuse to question anything Larussa does or says, no matter how stupid.

 

ok, so LaRussa wasn't leaving him in to accumulate innings. so exactly why was LaRussa leaving him in blowout games? because all the games listed above were critical games the Cardinals had to have?

 

with the way the Cards pen has performed, why did he leave him in some of those 2-3 run ballgames? was the first game of the series at Busch with the Cubs on a 100 degree night really so important for the Cards to win, or would the better decision be to see if the pen could match Z and give Carpenter a few batters off? and the last series against the Cubs, with the way the Cubs offense was struggling, was it really necessary to keep him in after the Cards took a three run lead in the seventh? was that game critical, or was that a good opportunity to save a little wear and tear?

 

as for Z, I don't think there is a Cubs fan on this board who doesn't hate the way Dusty handles his pitchers. although I didn't like it, like mentioned above, the circumstances are completely different. every game is critical for the Cubs right now, therefore you may have to push your starters a little harder.

 

my comments had nothing to do with Baker. why can't there ever be a discussion about LaRussa without the Card fan saying "well what about Baker." nobody likes Baker and everyone questions everything he does already. he's an idiot. why is so hard for so many Card fans to admit that so many of the things LaRussa does and says are completely idiotic?

[SirPlopigus]

The Cards' rotation has been incredibly healthy for the last 2 years. At one point do you stop thinking that it's "luck", and wonder if the coaches know what they're doing?

More than likely, they will never stop believing in luck

[indifferent]

 

 

As for TLR's handing of Carp, I am not worried about it. Carp is not struggling out there to get thru 9 innings; TLR is not just leaving him out there to rack up innings as you are alluding to.

 

Was your fur ruffled when Dusty left Z in for the 9th inning last night? He threw 100 something thru 8 and ended with 116 pitches. That is more than Carp has thrown in any of his games the last two months.

 

 

this is exactly what I figured the response would be. there seems to be alot of Card fans who refuse to question anything Larussa does or says, no matter how stupid.

 

ok, so LaRussa wasn't leaving him in to accumulate innings. so exactly why was LaRussa leaving him in blowout games? because all the games listed above were critical games the Cardinals had to have?

 

with the way the Cards pen has performed, why did he leave him in some of those 2-3 run ballgames? was the first game of the series at Busch with the Cubs on a 100 degree night really so important for the Cards to win, or would the better decision be to see if the pen could match Z and give Carpenter a few batters off? and the last series against the Cubs, with the way the Cubs offense was struggling, was it really necessary to keep him in after the Cards took a three run lead in the seventh? was that game critical, or was that a good opportunity to save a little wear and tear?

 

as for Z, I don't think there is a Cubs fan on this board who doesn't hate the way Dusty handles his pitchers. although I didn't like it, like mentioned above, the circumstances are completely different. every game is critical for the Cubs right now, therefore you may have to push your starters a little harder.

 

my comments had nothing to do with Baker. why can't there ever be a discussion about LaRussa without the Card fan saying "well what about Baker." nobody likes Baker and everyone questions everything he does already. he's an idiot. why is so hard for so many Card fans to admit that so many of the things LaRussa does and says are completely idiotic?

 

Well, you won't hear me agreeing to "many of the things LaRussa does and says are completely idiotic", but I'd say the most valid complaint I've heard about LaRussa all year is his insistence on keeping his starters around to get the "win". As a result, Carp has pitched more innings than he needs to (whether they're easy innings or not) and Marquis has been abused. Not to mention, Marquis has been left in there too long to where the team blew their shot at winning the game and I'm sure it doesn't help his confidence. He's done this to Morris this year plenty of times also.

[K-Town]

this is exactly what I figured the response would be. there seems to be alot of Card fans who refuse to question anything Larussa does or says, no matter how stupid.

 

ok, so LaRussa wasn't leaving him in to accumulate innings. so exactly why was LaRussa leaving him in blowout games? because all the games listed above were critical games the Cardinals had to have?

 

with the way the Cards pen has performed, why did he leave him in some of those 2-3 run ballgames? was the first game of the series at Busch with the Cubs on a 100 degree night really so important for the Cards to win, or would the better decision be to see if the pen could match Z and give Carpenter a few batters off? and the last series against the Cubs, with the way the Cubs offense was struggling, was it really necessary to keep him in after the Cards took a three run lead in the seventh? was that game critical, or was that a good opportunity to save a little wear and tear?

 

I think you're getting cause and effect twisted.

 

I'm not sure it's fair to say that "the starters should be pulled, because the bullpen is so good".

 

I think it's a matter of the bullpen performing really well BECAUSE the starters are going a little deeper into games (therefore, the bullpen can be used wisely, and remains fresh).

 

If Larussa starts pulling pitchers out just for the sake of pulling them (which would be the case with Carpenter, because he hasn't been "abused" this year, he's just been really good), then it's more work for the bullpen, and the bullpen may not be as fresh, and probably not as effective when you really need them to be.

[K-Town]

Well, you won't hear me agreeing to "many of the things LaRussa does and says are completely idiotic", but I'd say the most valid complaint I've heard about LaRussa all year is his insistence on keeping his starters around to get the "win". As a result, Carp has pitched more innings than he needs to (whether they're easy innings or not) and Marquis has been abused. Not to mention, Marquis has been left in there too long to where the team blew their shot at winning the game and I'm sure it doesn't help his confidence. He's done this to Morris this year plenty of times also.

 

Marquis has been abused. I won't argue with that. It's a struggle just for him to get thru 6 innings, because he's constantly in and out of jams.

 

Carpenter hasn't been abused. He's just been good. Carpenter is simply mowing hitters down late in games (.416 OPS against in innings 7 thru 9 is simply incredible). If a pitcher has thrown 90 pitches in the 8th inning, and is dominating, and isn't the least bit tired, then why would you pull him out?

[SouthSideRyan]

Well, you won't hear me agreeing to "many of the things LaRussa does and says are completely idiotic", but I'd say the most valid complaint I've heard about LaRussa all year is his insistence on keeping his starters around to get the "win". As a result, Carp has pitched more innings than he needs to (whether they're easy innings or not) and Marquis has been abused. Not to mention, Marquis has been left in there too long to where the team blew their shot at winning the game and I'm sure it doesn't help his confidence. He's done this to Morris this year plenty of times also.

 

Marquis has been abused. I won't argue with that. It's a struggle just for him to get thru 6 innings, because he's constantly in and out of jams.

 

Carpenter hasn't been abused. He's just been good. Carpenter is simply mowing hitters down late in games (.416 OPS against in innings 7 thru 9 is simply incredible). If a pitcher has thrown 90 pitches in the 8th inning, and is dominating, and isn't the least bit tired, then why would you pull him out?

 

What's the value in leaving him in? So he can pile up on the CG stat?

[K-Town]

Well, you won't hear me agreeing to "many of the things LaRussa does and says are completely idiotic", but I'd say the most valid complaint I've heard about LaRussa all year is his insistence on keeping his starters around to get the "win". As a result, Carp has pitched more innings than he needs to (whether they're easy innings or not) and Marquis has been abused. Not to mention, Marquis has been left in there too long to where the team blew their shot at winning the game and I'm sure it doesn't help his confidence. He's done this to Morris this year plenty of times also.

 

Marquis has been abused. I won't argue with that. It's a struggle just for him to get thru 6 innings, because he's constantly in and out of jams.

 

Carpenter hasn't been abused. He's just been good. Carpenter is simply mowing hitters down late in games (.416 OPS against in innings 7 thru 9 is simply incredible). If a pitcher has thrown 90 pitches in the 8th inning, and is dominating, and isn't the least bit tired, then why would you pull him out?

 

What's the value in leaving him in? So he can pile up on the CG stat?

 

No, to get the opponent out. Isn't that the idea? :roll: As I told you, he has a .416 OPS against in innings 7 thru 9.

[jjgman21]

Well, you won't hear me agreeing to "many of the things LaRussa does and says are completely idiotic", but I'd say the most valid complaint I've heard about LaRussa all year is his insistence on keeping his starters around to get the "win". As a result, Carp has pitched more innings than he needs to (whether they're easy innings or not) and Marquis has been abused. Not to mention, Marquis has been left in there too long to where the team blew their shot at winning the game and I'm sure it doesn't help his confidence. He's done this to Morris this year plenty of times also.

 

Marquis has been abused. I won't argue with that. It's a struggle just for him to get thru 6 innings, because he's constantly in and out of jams.

 

Carpenter hasn't been abused. He's just been good. Carpenter is simply mowing hitters down late in games (.416 OPS against in innings 7 thru 9 is simply incredible). If a pitcher has thrown 90 pitches in the 8th inning, and is dominating, and isn't the least bit tired, then why would you pull him out?

 

What's the value in leaving him in? So he can pile up on the CG stat?

 

exactly. just look at some of the scores of the games (and some of the competition the Cards were facing in those games) and try to tell me there was any value whatsoever in leaving him in.

 

arguments for pulling Carpenter in some of those games:

 

after his next start, he will have surpassed all but one other season in IP

he's about 2.5 years removed from reconstructive surgery

the Cards have a decent pen that could nail down most if not all of those games

the Cards locked up the division in June

the Cards starting pitching wore down in the post season last year and steps could be taken to prevent that from happening again

just because he's not tired in the 8th inning of any given game doesn't detract from the cumulative effects of throwing 106 pitches per start for a season, and he had arm problems late last year, possibly due to being left in too long in many meaningless games.

 

as for the cause and effect argument above, I don't think the extra 20 or so innings LaRussa should have saved from Carpenters arm would have killed the Cards pen, particular since so many of those innings would have been in blowouts

 

 

arguments for leaving him in:

 

LaRussa doesn't leave him in just to accumulate innings

the Cards pen wouldn't have been as good if he were left in

he was pitching well

 

 

 

kudos to indifferent for not being indifferent to this problem LaRussa is creating for himself.

[jjgman21]

Well, you won't hear me agreeing to "many of the things LaRussa does and says are completely idiotic", but I'd say the most valid complaint I've heard about LaRussa all year is his insistence on keeping his starters around to get the "win". As a result, Carp has pitched more innings than he needs to (whether they're easy innings or not) and Marquis has been abused. Not to mention, Marquis has been left in there too long to where the team blew their shot at winning the game and I'm sure it doesn't help his confidence. He's done this to Morris this year plenty of times also.

 

Marquis has been abused. I won't argue with that. It's a struggle just for him to get thru 6 innings, because he's constantly in and out of jams.

 

Carpenter hasn't been abused. He's just been good. Carpenter is simply mowing hitters down late in games (.416 OPS against in innings 7 thru 9 is simply incredible). If a pitcher has thrown 90 pitches in the 8th inning, and is dominating, and isn't the least bit tired, then why would you pull him out?

 

What's the value in leaving him in? So he can pile up on the CG stat?

 

No, to get the opponent out. Isn't that the idea? :roll: As I told you, he has a .416 OPS against in innings 7 thru 9.

 

no, the idea is to win the World Series, and your manager is hurting your chances of doing so.