Clemens,Carpenter, or Willis for Cy Young? (edit)

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

I'm not penalizing anybody. His team is penalizing him.

 

THE CY YOUNG IS NOT A TEAM AWARD!

 

Wow, it's like talking to the wall here.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The team loses. He kept his team in the game, which is VERY different than giving up 6.

 

We've covered this over and over again.

 

Bruce Springsteen would have gotten the exact same results (a loss), if he had pitched that day. In the grand scheme of things, do you think that anybody is going to care in September whether the Astros lost that game 1-0, or 13-0?

 

Therefore, Springsteen would have been just as valuable as Clemens that day, if he had been pitching. Unfortunately, Springsteen never got the chance.

 

I know, the VORP doesn't think so.

 

That goes both ways. Carpenter could've given up more runs in many of his starts and still gotten the win, so does it matter if it was him or Marquis or Ankiel pitching?

 

And the same is true for Clemens, in his wins. So that cancels out.

 

So because Clemens's team puts him in the former situation much more than Carpenter's team does, that means we penalize Clemens? Okay. First, the situations, then the team based nonsense. Can't say that I didn't see it coming.

 

I'm not penalizing anybody. His team is penalizing him.

 

Haha, okay, so when Carpenter wins we'll give the award to "Chris Carpenter and all his teammates on the Cardinals". Why did I let myself get back into this?

[K-Town]

Essentially, you think Carpenter deserves it because he played for a better team. Really, that's it in a nutshell. (and because he's a Redbird :wink: )

 

In the final analysis, I think the voters will fall on your side. That is somwhat flawed. Given, no more or less flawed than how it was done in prior years, but flawed nonetheless.

 

That's a reasonable post.

 

He's easily the best pitcher, on easily the best team, which has the best ERA in the league. That shoudl count for something (I know, not much, but it sounds good!) :)

[IlliniAmy]

Here's what I believe. I believe that if Carpenter is pitching for the Astros, with the same run support as Clemens, Carpenter has more than 11 wins. You wanna know why? Because Carpenter will maintain the shutout deeper into the game, giving his team a chance to win and/or go into extra innings. There are far fewer chances for the bullpen to blow the game like they have for Clemens. He needs to go out and earn those wins.

 

Whew....just a week ago I was thinking it was a pretty even pick for the Cy Young, but I find myself working so hard to prove Carpenter a worthy candidate, that I think he's got a slight edge for winning it too.

[K-Town]

I'm not penalizing anybody. His team is penalizing him.

 

THE CY YOUNG IS NOT A TEAM AWARD!

 

Wow, it's like talking to the wall here.

 

No, it's not a team award, but should be based on how much you help your team, in my opinion.

[jam1975]

I'm not penalizing anybody. His team is penalizing him.

 

THE CY YOUNG IS NOT A TEAM AWARD!

 

Wow, it's like talking to the wall here.

 

No, it's not a team award, but should be based on how much you help your team, in my opinion.

 

By the logic, you should be arguing Donetrelle should win the Cy Young. Because not only has he put up pretty high numbers on the mound but his bat has been key for the Marlins also.

[K-Town]

I'm not penalizing anybody. His team is penalizing him.

 

THE CY YOUNG IS NOT A TEAM AWARD!

 

Wow, it's like talking to the wall here.

 

No, it's not a team award, but should be based on how much you help your team, in my opinion.

 

By the logic, you should be arguing Donetrelle should win the Cy Young. Because not only has he put up pretty high numbers on the mound but his bat has been key for the Marlins also.

 

Good point. Let me re-phrase:

 

It should be based on how much a pitcher helps his team, by pitching.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

That's a reasonable post.

 

He's easily the best pitcher, on easily the best team, which has the best ERA in the league. That shoudl count for something (I know, not much, but it sounds good!) :)

 

No, he's not easily the best pitcher. If he was, there'd be more than you and one other Cardinal fan on here saying he deserves the award.

 

That's another one of those remarks you throw in just to get a rise out of people. You're trolling basically, but you're trying to cover it up. Keep it up...

[K-Town]

That's a reasonable post.

 

He's easily the best pitcher, on easily the best team, which has the best ERA in the league. That shoudl count for something (I know, not much, but it sounds good!) :)

 

No, he's not easily the best pitcher. If he was, there'd be more than you and one other Cardinal fan on here saying he deserves the award.

 

That's another one of those remarks you throw in just to get a rise out of people. You're trolling basically, but you're trying to cover it up. Keep it up...

 

Re-read my post. I said he's the best pitcher on the best team (in other words, the Cards are the best team, and he is their best pitcher).

 

How is that trolling?

[imb]

I'm not penalizing anybody. His team is penalizing him.

 

THE CY YOUNG IS NOT A TEAM AWARD!

 

Wow, it's like talking to the wall here.

 

No, it's not a team award, but should be based on how much you help your team, in my opinion.

 

By the logic, you should be arguing Donetrelle should win the Cy Young. Because not only has he put up pretty high numbers on the mound but his bat has been key for the Marlins also.

 

Carpenter has been so bad with the bat, and by contrast, Willis has been so good, that Willis actually has more WS than Carp this year.

[K-Town]

I'm not penalizing anybody. His team is penalizing him.

 

THE CY YOUNG IS NOT A TEAM AWARD!

 

Wow, it's like talking to the wall here.

 

No, it's not a team award, but should be based on how much you help your team, in my opinion.

 

By the logic, you should be arguing Donetrelle should win the Cy Young. Because not only has he put up pretty high numbers on the mound but his bat has been key for the Marlins also.

 

 

 

 

Carpenter has been so bad with the bat, and by contrast, Willis has been so good, that Willis actually has more WS than Carp this year.

 

 

:lol: :lol: Good point. That is pretty sad.

Edited September 7, 2005 by K-Town

[imb]

If he really wanted to win, he'd learn how to hit. Hell, if he could hit, he might be undefeated.

[cubsfromMD]

Here's what I believe. I believe that if Carpenter is pitching for the Astros, with the same run support as Clemens, Carpenter has more than 11 wins. You wanna know why? Because Carpenter will maintain the shutout deeper into the game, giving his team a chance to win and/or go into extra innings. There are far fewer chances for the bullpen to blow the game like they have for Clemens. He needs to go out and earn those wins.

 

Whew....just a week ago I was thinking it was a pretty even pick for the Cy Young, but I find myself working so hard to prove Carpenter a worthy candidate, that I think he's got a slight edge for winning it too.

 

But that logic is flawed, in eight of Clemens starts he got ZERO runs of suport. I dont care how many shutout innings you throw simple rule, if your team doesnt score you CANT win.

[IlliniAmy]

Here's what I believe. I believe that if Carpenter is pitching for the Astros, with the same run support as Clemens, Carpenter has more than 11 wins. You wanna know why? Because Carpenter will maintain the shutout deeper into the game, giving his team a chance to win and/or go into extra innings. There are far fewer chances for the bullpen to blow the game like they have for Clemens. He needs to go out and earn those wins.

 

Whew....just a week ago I was thinking it was a pretty even pick for the Cy Young, but I find myself working so hard to prove Carpenter a worthy candidate, that I think he's got a slight edge for winning it too.

 

But that logic is flawed, in eight of Clemens starts he got ZERO runs of suport. I dont care how many shutout innings you throw simple rule, if your team doesnt score you CANT win.

 

Yes you can....if you force the other team to go to their bullpen first, you've got a better chance of winning. It's like a game of chicken and Carpenter is much better at it than Clemens (this year).

 

By the way, your comment works in the reverse. The other team can't beat you if you don't allow them to score any runs. :wink:

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Yes you can....if you force the other team to go to their bullpen first, you've got a better chance of winning. It's like a game of chicken and Carpenter is much better at it than Clemens (this year).

 

By the way, your comment works in the reverse. The other team can't beat you if you don't allow them to score any runs. :wink:

 

Um, no. You can't win if you don't score. You can pitch 50 straight scoreless innings, but it means nothing if you're team can't score. You cannot win without scoring at least one run. (Negatives are impossible in baseball, even if Ditka is on the mound)

[K-Town]

One more number (maybe meaningless to some of you):

 

Quality Starts:

 

Carpenter - 26

Clemens - 24

 

 

In other words, Carpenter has put his team in a position to win, more often than Clemens (if that's how you view "Quality Starts", which some of you may not).

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Once again, LACK OF RUN SUPPORT IN NO WAY DIMINISHES CLEMENS'S VALUE!

,just because his teammates failed to capitalize on that value not withstanding.

 

Once again you've tried to derail the argument with analogies that have nothing to do with baseball. You did it once with your ridiculous Lambourghini/Grand Prix analaogy and now with a (expletive deleted) CD player/cassette analogy. It's stupid. The analogies are ignorant. They don't apply.

 

Let me give you one. Assume I have an original painting by Monet. I don't have space to hang it up, so I just stash it in my attic. It's still in pristine condition, but it sits un-noticed in my attic. Is its value in any way diminsihed. Hell No! I'm just not utilizing in the best way its value.

 

Think that analogy is pretty lame. No more than the one you've thrown out and it's what happens when you try to compare something to baseball in a qualitative way that has really nothing to do with it. It adds nothing to the discussion.

 

By all the comprehensive metrics, Clemens has pitched the most effective this year and deserves the Cy Young.

 

Now, I have to go teach a group of 8th graders about forshadowing. Good day.

Edited September 7, 2005 by vance_the_cubs_fan

[imb]

QS is a pretty garbage stat. 3 runs in 6 IP is a 4.50 era, nothing quality about that.

[wolf stansson]

This thread is annoying. You can open it up randomly to any page and you'll see the same exact argument. K-Town and random other Cards fans who pop up to voice their support only to realize their either not going to make a difference or they realize their logic is flawed VS. everyone else. I think we've said everything that needed to be said by about page 4 or 5. The last 35 have been pointless.

[cubsfromMD]

One more number (maybe meaningless to some of you):

 

Quality Starts:

 

Carpenter - 26

Clemens - 24

 

 

In other words, Carpenter has put his team in a position to win, more often than Clemens (if that's how you view "Quality Starts", which some of you may not).

 

side note...am I the only person who thinks the qualifications for a quality start are too lax

[K-Town]

Yes you can....if you force the other team to go to their bullpen first, you've got a better chance of winning. It's like a game of chicken and Carpenter is much better at it than Clemens (this year).

 

By the way, your comment works in the reverse. The other team can't beat you if you don't allow them to score any runs. :wink:

 

Um, no. You can't win if you don't score. You can pitch 50 straight scoreless innings, but it means nothing if you're team can't score. You cannot win without scoring at least one run. (Negatives are impossible in baseball, even if Ditka is on the mound)

 

I think her point with the "game of chicken" is that if Clemens can hold the other team for another inning or two, then he puts his team in a better position to win in the late innings. In other words, if Clemens holds the other team scoreless into the 9th, then Houston might be able to "play for a run", by bunting a guy over or something, and win the game with one run. As it stands, Houston's bullpen gives up a couple of runs, and Houston is forced to play for a big inning late in the game, sometimes.

 

It's nitpicking a little, but it's not completely irrelevant.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Now, I have to go teach a group of 8th graders about forshadowing. Good day.

 

Yep, and I need to get some work done as well. Bye guys, it's been a thin slice of.... well, it's definitely been a slice of something.

[gus_dog]

Yes you can....if you force the other team to go to their bullpen first, you've got a better chance of winning. It's like a game of chicken and Carpenter is much better at it than Clemens (this year).

 

By the way, your comment works in the reverse. The other team can't beat you if you don't allow them to score any runs. :wink:

 

Um, no. You can't win if you don't score. You can pitch 50 straight scoreless innings, but it means nothing if you're team can't score. You cannot win without scoring at least one run. (Negatives are impossible in baseball, even if Ditka is on the mound)

 

I think her point with the "game of chicken" is that if Clemens can hold the other team for another inning or two, then he puts his team in a better position to win in the late innings. In other words, if Clemens holds the other team scoreless into the 9th, then Houston might be able to "play for a run", by bunting a guy over or something, and win the game with one run. As it stands, Houston's bullpen gives up a couple of runs, and Houston is forced to play for a big inning late in the game, sometimes.

 

It's nitpicking a little, but it's not completely irrelevant.

 

No, it's nitpicking alot, and the fact that such scenarios are even brought into the argument illustrates how tenuous the argument is.

 

I'm done too.

 

Have a nice day, everyone. :D

[K-Town]

QS is a pretty garbage stat. 3 runs in 6 IP is a 4.50 era, nothing quality about that.

 

I figured that was coming. :roll:

[IlliniAmy]

Yes you can....if you force the other team to go to their bullpen first, you've got a better chance of winning. It's like a game of chicken and Carpenter is much better at it than Clemens (this year).

 

By the way, your comment works in the reverse. The other team can't beat you if you don't allow them to score any runs. :wink:

 

Um, no. You can't win if you don't score. You can pitch 50 straight scoreless innings, but it means nothing if you're team can't score. You cannot win without scoring at least one run. (Negatives are impossible in baseball, even if Ditka is on the mound)

 

I think her point with the "game of chicken" is that if Clemens can hold the other team for another inning or two, then he puts his team in a better position to win in the late innings. In other words, if Clemens holds the other team scoreless into the 9th, then Houston might be able to "play for a run", by bunting a guy over or something, and win the game with one run. As it stands, Houston's bullpen gives up a couple of runs, and Houston is forced to play for a big inning late in the game, sometimes.

 

It's nitpicking a little, but it's not completely irrelevant.

 

No, it's nitpicking alot, and the fact that such scenarios are even brought into the argument illustrates how tenuous the argument is.

 

I'm done too.

 

Have a nice day, everyone. :D

 

nitpicking? With that empty accusation, it's no wonder you're done. Have a nice afternoon.